am i imagining things or does my audio now sound better with my new dac?
Jul 7, 2019 at 2:23 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 18

angelus55

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previously i was using the built in dac of my asus tuf motherboard in my pc, and i just recived the modi 3 and hooked it up a few moments ago, and im pretty sure the audio quality improved, it seems there is better soundstage/imaging/separation

like in this song starting at 00:20 in, the whistling before sounded harsh and now it sounds fine, and the acoustic guitar i hear more in the left and right channel separately then i did before

here is the song



for my gear i have the hd 6xx/650 and magni 3 and modi 3


am i imagining it or does the dac really make a difference? do yall think a dac would improve something like i described above?

im asking, because i mainly bought the dac so i could connect my ps4, and Nintendo switch to amp and headphones, but i did not expect and audio quality change

please and thanks
 
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Jul 8, 2019 at 1:16 AM Post #2 of 18
DACs make a big difference. You are not imagining it :)
The differences are more subtle but also more fundamental than with headphones or earphones. With a bad DAC I don’t enjoy music very long, a good DAC just makes me want to listen to more and more.
 
Jul 8, 2019 at 10:12 AM Post #4 of 18
Note also that when people seemingly downplay the role of the DAC, they're not really downplaying it, they're just saying the differences can be more subtle than the sound of one (underpowered or underdampened) headphone vs another (properly driven) headphone and yet being more upstream will affect everything else.

Diminishing returns also sets in sooner on DACs in terms of price, generally, but at the same time there are cheap and simpler DAC circuits that can beat something more expensive. I've been using the USB input of my Meier Cantate.2 built around a PCM510x USB receiver-DAC combo chip since I tested CDPs against it (yep, it's been that long) and the only CDP that outright beat it in imaging and tone (others can have a slightly better low end, but then the imaging puts the bass all out in front) was the Arcam CD72, and down here it will cost 3X what I paid to get the Cantate.2.
 
Jul 11, 2019 at 10:09 AM Post #5 of 18
am i imagining it or does the dac really make a difference? do yall think a dac would improve something like i described above?

Even if others claim something different: The honest answer is: There is no way we could possibly know if or how much your new dac sounds different or better (to you).

First, because we are not you, second because we don't have your exact same gear and don't even know what motherboard you have etc. ...

Very likely it is a combination of both of these: an actual (small) difference and your wanted and imagined improvement. Audio memory is very bad and I have often experienced this exact same situation: you get a new amp, dac, cable etc. and immediately conclude that it sounds very different ... then you AB-test and realize ... there is not really much of any audible difference and realize, what kind of tricks our brains play with you. Then again there are differences that you start to realize only after extensive listening. It is a bit of a different story with headphones, there it is often much easier to make out the differences when listening to them right after each other.

If you have the possibility, set up an AB-test and check yourself.

Also consider this: a change in sound signature etc. is often not a positive change in any case. It is always about synergy between all the components, your hearing, your preferred sound signature etc.
What sounds better with one song might sound worse with another song. Your new dac might sound better with acoustic guitar, but maybe sounds worse with those old rock recordings.
It's fun to explore but often about trade offs, at least that's what I realized after being in this hobby for a little while :)
 
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Jul 12, 2019 at 6:21 AM Post #6 of 18
previously i was using the built in dac of my asus tuf motherboard in my pc, and i just recived the modi 3 and hooked it up a few moments ago, and im pretty sure the audio quality improved, it seems there is better soundstage/imaging/separation

like in this song starting at 00:20 in, the whistling before sounded harsh and now it sounds fine, and the acoustic guitar i hear more in the left and right channel separately then i did before

here is the song



for my gear i have the hd 6xx/650 and magni 3 and modi 3


am i imagining it or does the dac really make a difference? do yall think a dac would improve something like i described above?

im asking, because i mainly bought the dac so i could connect my ps4, and Nintendo switch to amp and headphones, but i did not expect and audio quality change

please and thanks

is the PC output a line out or just the headphone out you send to the amp? if it's the second option, the quality of soundcard's amps aren't always great, or good with high impedance inputs like another amp.
the second usual suspect is a difference in output. not all DACs will max out at 2V, so you might be comparing 2 different volume levels. which of course completely ruins any attempt to properly estimate other differences by ear.
the third usual suspect is simply that you got your new toy and paid a lot of attention to the sound by focusing on stuff you don't typically seek. also you probably have some expectations(otherwise why would you purchase it in the first place?^_^). that can very much result in feeling that you're perceiving more than is actually there in the sound.
and last of course, if one DAC sucks really bad, it might not sound transparent at all. I do expect DACs to have the least impact among audio gears(simply because they usually measure much better than the rest), but it's not impossible for one to be really bad in some way.

if you're satisfied with your setup, and don't plan to become another deluded online zealot who claims night and day everything based on one poorly studied anecdote, then I would suggest to just enjoy the good that you feel, and not worry too much about the reason why. but if you have that sick disease called curiosity that stops you from being happy if you don't know why, then you could try to record a song by looping each DAC(no amp) straight into your computer's audio input(hopefully that is an actual line in so the sound wouldn't be too messed up). that might be enough to let you A/B the sound under more favorable conditions after aligning and normalizing the tracks in audacity or similar DAW. and using the same loop you could try to measure a few stuff with RMAA or other free apps. with the caveat that your input could be the limiter in that loop so you might end up measuring how bad your input is instead of the DACs. also it's better to learn a bit about measurements and the apps themselves so that you don't end up with nonsense presented in an objective looking way.
 
Jul 13, 2019 at 11:50 AM Post #7 of 18
It’s typically a nuanced difference with the DAC, but it seems like the other parts of your setup should be sensitive enough to hear it. Now, from a technical point of view, I don’t believe the DAC itself is supposed to have a sound of its own, rather its job is to faithfully convert digital bits into analog voltages, but I understand that this is not as easy as it sounds in practice. All this to say, what you perceive as “more musical” (better spaciousness, better frequency response) may have very technical reasons behind it (better filtering of power mains noise and other noise sources, etc.).
 
Jul 15, 2019 at 4:34 AM Post #8 of 18
This is an interesting video about the CHORD DAC technology.


Rob Watts, the developer of this technology has been desiging military DAC chips before and has spent over 20 years developing this FPGA DAC to it's current level.
The video is a little technical but its gives you an idea of what issues DAC designers have to deal with.

I have the Chord Mojo, and there's a natural smoothness, resolution and sound stage that's really amazing to me.
It makes me enjoy music more than with anything else I have heard so far.
 
Jul 16, 2019 at 4:18 AM Post #10 of 18
I had heard a lot about Chord DAC’s and how they have a different approach to making their gear, but this is the first time I’ve actually seen their promo video laying out how they are different. Thanks for sharing!
so long as you keep in mind that it's an ad and not much else, it's fine. the voice talks of problems that weren't problems even 15 years ago, treats typical DAC chips as if they're just horrible noise and error factories, when almost all of them can do better than 100dB SNR and almost as much for THD(the latest ESS stuff talk about getting up to 140dB in SNR when implemented nominally as per the design they suggest). if almost all other DAC manufacturers stop at a given and already massive oversampling value, it's because they have all considered that there was no point pushing further unless we start developing new hearing appendixes somehow. when the voice starts listing all the subjective stuff in sound that are supposed to be improved by the ludicrously small change due to the ludicrously high oversampling, I somehow expected him to continue and tell us that is would brought back the ex wife home and regrow my hair too. :deadhorse:
most of the statements about perception and audibility in the video are unsubstantiated and not supported by the research papers on the specific variables and amplitudes the guy talks about. it's just ultra typical modern marketing, where they make up issues by blowing somewhat correct ideas way out of proportions, ignoring the very concept of hearing thresholds, just for the sake of being able to say that they're the only ones putting that much efforts into solving them. and of course they are, everybody else has also tested those variables and found that their stuff was already well above what needed to be done to push noise below hearing levels, to make jitter a non issue, to have clocks so good that even on crazy cheap consumer implementations you're going to end the song maybe 3 or 4 samples too soon or too late, in a 3mn song that just played 8 million of those samples(if anybody can actually notice that timing error by ear, I'll stop eating my lovely Pringles for the rest of my life). as for the programmable chip, while it's presented like a great innovation to push the limits of whatever, in reality it's the breadboard of chips, the stuff you use because you haven't made your own chip yet. the chip manufacturers develop a design(probably using such programmable chip in the process at some point), then they actually go build the chip the exact way they need it to be to do the exact function they want it to do.


now don't get me wrong, marketing is everywhere, they all do that "it's not a bug, it's a feature" crap, and they all try to make the consumer fear something he has no reason to fear to create a need out of nothing. even the usually very serious ESS I mentioned as an example, can't help but talk about the improvement in clarity and soundstage from their latest chip that does up to 140dB SNR. and why not? legally you can claim anything so long as it's a vague subjective term. the only stuff they will have to say somewhat accurately because they would be sued if they lied, that's the value of some objective variable they mention. Chord is the same, I don't doubt one second that they do oversample to the ludicrous value they mention, such clear objective concepts have to be true in an ad. the rest about what's enough or not(relatively to what?) or what's clearly an improvement subjectively, they can say almost whatever they want, so of course they do.
 
Jul 16, 2019 at 4:37 AM Post #11 of 18
I think from experience, its a 50/50 split between having a MB soundcard that is connected to other components making it have more background noise. (Try listening to nothing at all with your headphones and you may pick up internal static noise), to then going to an external dac\amp with no contact from the pc, has been made to reduce internal cross noise and most likely has a proper amp to push cleaner sound to your headphones\iems.

My golden rule is, always use an external amp\dac when you can instead of whatever you're able to plug into. (Pc, game console, mobile phone.)
 
Jul 17, 2019 at 10:08 PM Post #12 of 18
You hit the good enough wall quick with DACs, it’s relatively cheap now days to build a good one. The main limitation is actually our hearing. So once you have something your happy with I would argue headphones are where the money should be spent hardware wise as long as the amp is properly powering them.
 
Jul 17, 2019 at 11:45 PM Post #13 of 18
Jul 18, 2019 at 7:21 AM Post #14 of 18
so long as you keep in mind that it's an ad and not much else, it's fine. the voice talks of problems that weren't problems even 15 years ago, treats typical DAC chips as if they're just horrible noise and error factories, when almost all of them can do better than 100dB SNR and almost as much for THD(the latest ESS stuff talk about getting up to 140dB in SNR when implemented nominally as per the design they suggest). if almost all other DAC manufacturers stop at a given and already massive oversampling value, it's because they have all considered that there was no point pushing further unless we start developing new hearing appendixes somehow.</snip>.

You hit the good enough wall quick with DACs, it’s relatively cheap now days to build a good one. The main limitation is actually our hearing. So once you have something your happy with I would argue headphones are where the money should be spent hardware wise as long as the amp is properly powering them.

Just a small clarification with the above, after building and helping designers with DAC implementations over the last 10-15 years - those colored phrases are the entire "trick" with DACs versus the DAC chips themselves. Yes, DAC chip mfrs can develop chips with unbelievable performance, but it's all in the implementation of the overall DAC audio component circuit. One answer to the question of why a DAC mfr might stop at a given performance level is, why should a DAC mfr develop a chip beyond 140 SNR when no-one can provide an overall DAC circuit that will match that SNR?

This has been the issue with opamps for many decades. One might develop an opamp chip with unbelievable noise and distortion values - it doesn't mean that an amplifier circuit using that opamp can attain those noise and distortion values. One of the ways mfrs of cheap DACs market their products is by quoting the performance of the DAC chip, not the overall DAC component. Buyer beware ...
 
Jul 18, 2019 at 7:39 AM Post #15 of 18
Just a small clarification with the above, after building and helping designers with DAC implementations over the last 10-15 years - those colored phrases are the entire "trick" with DACs versus the DAC chips themselves. Yes, DAC chip mfrs can develop chips with unbelievable performance, but it's all in the implementation of the overall DAC audio component circuit. One answer to the question of why a DAC mfr might stop at a given performance level is, why should a DAC mfr develop a chip beyond 140 SNR when no-one can provide an overall DAC circuit that will match that SNR?

This has been the issue with opamps for many decades. One might develop an opamp chip with unbelievable noise and distortion values - it doesn't mean that an amplifier circuit using that opamp can attain those noise and distortion values. One of the ways mfrs of cheap DACs market their products is by quoting the performance of the DAC chip, not the overall DAC component. Buyer beware ...
I was specifically talking about chip specs, I don't think that ESS is selling actual DACs(although some of their all-in-one chips are probably 95% of what we'll find in a few usb dongles). but you're right to mention that, of course, a complete DAC can't get close to such specs(not that we have recorded material or transducers with that order of magnitude in resolution anyway).
 

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