[Ancipital]

  frustrating it is. because there is technically nothing stopping manufacturers from giving us enough specs to figure it out outside of "I don't want you guys to know anything". or for someone to make a mimicking box. if the special sound doesn't come from the interaction of the amp and the load(instability or whatever FR change), then measuring the signal output should make it possible to simulate a good deal of the electrical signal with any very transparent amp + some DSP.  now would the people admit that it's the same sound if they don't have the glowing tube? it's an entirely different matter ^_^.

 
The funny thing is that you can get plugins to simulate various guitar amps- that's regarded (quite rightly) as a good thing.

 

[EnOYiN]

The funny thing is that you can get plugins to simulate various guitar amps- that's regarded (quite rightly) as a good thing.

Not just plugins anymore. Whole amps / setups. And more and more people are using them. See here:

https://www.kemper-amps.com/
https://www.positivegrid.com/bias-desktop/
http://www.fractalaudio.com/

 

[StanD]

   
The funny thing is that you can get plugins to simulate various guitar amps- that's regarded (quite rightly) as a good thing.

I don't think that's intended for listening to recording music where we do not want the kind of distortion a guitar player wants for their guitar. I don't want any distortion for playback.

 

[Ancipital]

  I don't think that's intended for listening to recording music where we do not want the kind of distortion a guitar player wants for their guitar. I don't want any distortion for playback.

 
Sorry, I missed the part where I claimed that they were.

 

[Brooko]

  frustrating it is. because there is technically nothing stopping manufacturers from giving us enough specs to figure it out outside of "I don't want you guys to know anything". or for someone to make a mimicking box. if the special sound doesn't come from the interaction of the amp and the load(instability or whatever FR change), then measuring the signal output should make it possible to simulate a good deal of the electrical signal with any very transparent amp + some DSP.  now would the people admit that it's the same sound if they don't have the glowing tube? it's an entirely different matter ^_^.

Actually I don't agree with this.  It is their own IP.  Why would they release everything if its simply going to allow someone else to come along and kill their business.  VE are making a really nice amp, with plenty of power, and (for me) and amazing tonal response.  It may be a little on the expensive side for me personally (its around the USD 800.00 mark), but given what he has achieved with this amp, and the pleasure it gives me, I don't consider it as grossly overpriced.
 
I think there is a middle ground - and we shouldn't be expecting all manufacturers to "shoot themselves in the foot" for catering to their markets.

 

[RRod]

 
Actually I don't agree with this.  It is their own IP.  Why would they release everything if its simply going to allow someone else to come along and kill their business.  VE are making a really nice amp, with plenty of power, and (for me) and amazing tonal response.  It may be a little on the expensive side for me personally (its around the USD 800.00 mark), but given what he has achieved with this amp, and the pleasure it gives me, I don't consider it as grossly overpriced.
 
I think there is a middle ground - and we shouldn't be expecting all manufacturers to "shoot themselves in the foot" for catering to their markets.

 
I guess I have a hard time thinking of "any given combination of FR and THD" as intellectual property.

 

[Brooko]

  I guess I have a hard time thinking of "any given combination of FR and THD" as intellectual property.

 
Yet IEM makers have patents around the tech which produces it ......
 
And your point is?

 

[castleofargh]

 

  frustrating it is. because there is technically nothing stopping manufacturers from giving us enough specs to figure it out outside of "I don't want you guys to know anything". or for someone to make a mimicking box. if the special sound doesn't come from the interaction of the amp and the load(instability or whatever FR change), then measuring the signal output should make it possible to simulate a good deal of the electrical signal with any very transparent amp + some DSP.  now would the people admit that it's the same sound if they don't have the glowing tube? it's an entirely different matter ^_^.

Actually I don't agree with this.  It is their own IP.  Why would they release everything if its simply going to allow someone else to come along and kill their business.  VE are making a really nice amp, with plenty of power, and (for me) and amazing tonal response.  It may be a little on the expensive side for me personally (its around the USD 800.00 mark), but given what he has achieved with this amp, and the pleasure it gives me, I don't consider it as grossly overpriced.
 
I think there is a middle ground - and we shouldn't be expecting all manufacturers to "shoot themselves in the foot" for catering to their markets.

oh no giving specs would not really help us copy the sound, they would let us know what part of the specs we like so we can try something with similar THD or IMD or treble roll off or impedance in the low end...  with more variables known to us we get to try and find out exactly what we like outside of simple basic transparency in audio. if there was another amp with the same kind of specs given to us, we could try see if it was really what we like or just an unrelated correlation. that would avoid having people going all "I liked that amp, it had tubes therefore I like tube amps and not SS amps". or the same nonsense with balanced amps, and most of the oversimplified micro battles going on in the forum. even though we know for a fact that all the techs can offer coloration, and all the techs can offer convincingly transparent sound when done well enough. but because people know so little about the amps they own, they cling to the first correlation they know about, which are those ludicrous oversimplifications.
I don't think that because a manufacturer gave extensive measurements, or an impedance over frequency graph for the amp's output, that would help me copy the sound. anybody willing to try and copy a sound can do a good deal with impulse responses and sweeps, no need for extensive specs for that. and if some guy decides to make a cheap copy of the amp, how hard is it to open the case and look at the components, or to get some audio analyzer and get the specs they want when they want? the only people that can't get the specs they want are the basic audiophiles, the very people that are absolutely no threat to a manufacturer.
I seriously do not believe that manufacturers keep specs from us for fear of being copied. I'm way more delusioned(if that's a word) and believe they do so to hide the specs that don't look amazing, and also because it helps the market to have people make wrong purchase decisions as it only leads to more purchases.

 

[Ancipital]

 
oh no giving specs would not really help us copy the sound, they would let us know what part of the specs we like so we can try something with similar THD or IMD or treble roll off or impedance in the low end...  with more variables known to us we get to try and find out exactly what we like outside of simple basic transparency in audio. if there was another amp with the same kind of specs given to us, we could try see if it was really what we like or just an unrelated correlation. that would avoid having people going all "I liked that amp, it had tubes therefore I like tube amps and not SS amps". or the same nonsense with balanced amps, and most of the oversimplified micro battles going on in the forum. even though we know for a fact that all the techs can offer coloration, and all the techs can offer convincingly transparent sound when done well enough. but because people know so little about the amps they own, they cling to the first correlation they know about, which are those ludicrous oversimplifications.

 
Now I want a genetic algorithm-based amp simulation evolver, grr

 

[StanD]

   
Now I want a genetic algorithm-based amp simulation evolver, grr

I think the Umbrella Corporation has it.

 

[Ancipital]

  I think the Umbrella Corporation has it.

..and it has no sinister side-effects, right?
 
(..I used to have a bit of GA software that evolved patches for my Juno 106, it was utterly absorbing fun.)

 

[RRod]

   
Yet IEM makers have patents around the tech which produces it ......
 
And your point is?

 
Well it's interesting the double-shift to (headphones)+(hardware) from (amp)+(measurement). With headphones, you've got places like InnerFidelity posting way more detailed specs/measurements than you get from several manufacturers. The most you'll get out of Sennheiser's published specs on the 800s is the same THD at 1k/1Vrms as the 800, but Tyll happily shows us extra distortion at 40Hz. If Senn thought such measurements were critical to their IP I'm sure they'd be on this in a second, but they aren't because it's kind of weak-sauce property. If all an amp's got different is such easily-measurable characteristics, then they're really just hoping for "IP protection through obscurity." And all this does is foster this environment where measurements sit in the shadows while people give all kinds of subjective reasons for liking the sound of certain electronics.

 

[Brooko]

I actually think Senn does a pretty good job - including individual frequency response plots for the actual headphone.
 
Anyway - this is getting way off topic.  I answered the OP - now I'm outa here ......

 

[Headzone]

..for finding that valves don't appeal at all?

No. You're just poor

 

[ExtremeGamerBR]

   
No. You're just poor. End of story.

 
No. You like distortion. End of story.
 
Please, anyone have the right to like whatever they like. It's not because you like or not something that you have to put value judgment on it.