[jageur272]

 
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Thread is too long, so I'm just responding to the first post. ` Directional cables, although funny when you think about it, actually have their place (and it's not BS).  Don't laugh at things you don't quite understand.  Here's an example:
 
SOURCE is a CD player powered via the wall.  It outputs an unbalanced (single ended) signal via an RCA out with the ground held at earth ground (we're assuming the built in DAC is marvelous and doesn't require any dusting of diamond sparkles to sound like angels singing).
 
PREAMP is an active preamp powered via battery for low noise, with the ground being held at a V-Ground.
 
POWERAMP is an active Class A amp running off of a giant single rail power brick (like a o11).
 
If you didn't notice, you have 3 different "grounds" in play here.  You have the standard (and best) ground from the Source feeding a battery powered unit (with a decent V-Ground) terminating to the -V of a power brick.  The directional cable comes into play most when you are using the RCA's between the power amp and the preamp.  You will have extra ground currents regardless, but by tightly twisting the wires, you will cancel out a good deal of the noise.  You still want a shield however over the twisted pair (think of it as extending the 0 voltage around the conductors to minimize interference). You only want to terminate the shield at earth ground, which would be on the PREAMP side of things.  Thus, you would have a directional cable.
 
Sorry for the poor explanation, PM if I didn't quite say something clearly or correct (too tired).
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[Roger Strummer]

Quote:

 
No you haven't, you've simply tried to deny the difference between hearing a difference and feeling a difference and in the same breath to make them the same.  You've done nothing to deal with the invalidity of the interpretation process.
 
 

 
No, neither DBT nor me made that claim, I will say it a last time it is not about the how a person can identify A from B, even if  it was by telepathical means it means nothing to DBT itself, it is about if you can.

Now the interpretation of results is delicate, something I've also addressed in other posts, along with sample size and all factors that introduce variance. But in the end there still is no statistically significant evidence that discredits the Null hypothesis of all this, and neither conclusive measurements, so we science guys will still have our big doubts about the cable issue until proven (by either Statistical studies or measurements) otherwise.

 

[SP Wild]

 
Quote:

 

 

Thread is too long, so I'm just responding to the first post. ` Directional cables, although funny when you think about it, actually have their place (and it's not BS).  Don't laugh at things you don't quite understand.  Here's an example:
 
SOURCE is a CD player powered via the wall.  It outputs an unbalanced (single ended) signal via an RCA out with the ground held at earth ground (we're assuming the built in DAC is marvelous and doesn't require any dusting of diamond sparkles to sound like angels singing).
 
PREAMP is an active preamp powered via battery for low noise, with the ground being held at a V-Ground.
 
POWERAMP is an active Class A amp running off of a giant single rail power brick (like a o11).
 
If you didn't notice, you have 3 different "grounds" in play here.  You have the standard (and best) ground from the Source feeding a battery powered unit (with a decent V-Ground) terminating to the -V of a power brick.  The directional cable comes into play most when you are using the RCA's between the power amp and the preamp.  You will have extra ground currents regardless, but by tightly twisting the wires, you will cancel out a good deal of the noise.  You still want a shield however over the twisted pair (think of it as extending the 0 voltage around the conductors to minimize interference). You only want to terminate the shield at earth ground, which would be on the PREAMP side of things.  Thus, you would have a directional cable.
 
Sorry for the poor explanation, PM if I didn't quite say something clearly or correct (too tired).
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It is examples like this that keep me on the borderline, I mean even if the above scenario is not successfully DBT'able it makes sense from an engineering or technical point of view...and those that follow this doctrine should not be condemned - if they are financially unrestricted to chase an engineering idealogy over practical sensory reasons.

 

[beeman458]

No, neither DBT nor me made that claim, I will say it a last time it is not about the how a person can identify A from B, even if  it was by telepathical means it means nothing to DBT itself, it is about if you can.
 
Don't worry, I do get it as you don't get it.
 

 
Oh, looky.  A picture that was e-mailed today from Peter at Double Helix Cables.  I expect this image to cause all you non-believers to writhe on the floor and maybe even burst into flames while in extreme emotional pain at the sight of expensive custom headphone cables.
 
"Yeah baby!"
 

 
(Time will tell as to hearing a difference.)
 

 

[SP Wild]

That is the most physically intimidating Sen cable that I have ever seen.  I want one for the looks alone!

 

[beeman458]

 
I'm hoping at worst, it's totally neutral cause it'd kill me to have to trash it for the stock cable.
 

 

[Roger Strummer]

Some people don't understand this is the science subforum, not the post your pretty pictures one. I should have known better than to argue against people that don't bother to know what they criticize, I guess that is my fail. Better yet, lets go argue to the guys making medical studies that this is all wrong!
 
And audiophiles sometimes wonder why most science/engineering guys look down at them...

 

[beeman458]

Some people don't understand this is the science subforum, not the post your pretty pictures one
 
Now you're sounding jealous.
 
And audiophiles sometimes wonder why most science/engineering guys look down at them...
 
I don't know anybody that does or thinks that in the real world.  Maybe some folks here might.  And since this forum isn't the real world, what goes on here, doesn't matter.  Come-on, lighten up as the thread's coming to an end.  Try having some fun as you suggested with your cartoons.  Even scientists and EE's like to party.  And ya gotta admit, thanks to science, even if they don't improve the overall sound quality, those are some cool looking cables.
 

 

[SP Wild]

Quote:

Some people don't understand this is the science subforum, not the post your pretty pictures one. I should have known better than to argue against people that don't bother to know what they criticize, I guess that is my fail. Better yet, lets go argue to the guys making medical studies that this is all wrong!
 
And audiophiles sometimes wonder why most science/engineering guys look down at them...

If you read between the lines of my comments, you can interpret this to mean that such a visually stimulating design may be prone to inject a massive degree of placebo into the human mind... 
 
Look at it!  Its like a freaken deadly viper with two heads and two sets of fangs ready to kill any objectivists that stray too close!!!

 

[Roger Strummer]

Quote:

If you read between the lines of my comments, you can interpret this to mean that such a visually stimulating design may be prone to inject a massive degree of placebo into the human mind... 
 
Look at it!  Its like a freaken deadly viper with two heads and two sets of fangs ready to kill any objectivists that stray too close!!!

I had a feeling you were going to answer to my post, I wasn't referring to you 

. I hope the cable is named the OKiller!
 
Quote:

Now you're sounding jealous.
 
Not really, but pointing out that the science subforum is not the place for those things.
 
 
I don't know anybody that does or think that except maybe for some folks here. 
 
It happens, believe me, I'm in those circles after all.
 
And since this isn't the real world, what goes on here doesn't matter.  Come-on, lighten up as the thread's coming to an end.  Try having some fun as you suggested with your cartoons.  Even scientists and EE's like to party.  And ya gotta admit, thanks to science, even if they don't improve the overall sound quality, those are some cool looking cables.
 

 
I have no problem lightening up, but the member's lounge or other subforum is a more adequate place since that is not the point of the science subforum, whose name implies the nature of the discussions. And yeah, they look bitchin'.

Anyways this has been one of the better discussions regarding the nature of DBT and statistics, sorry if I got personal at some point, the most ironic part... I freaking hate statistics!! It is one of the "ugliest" and "cheapest" areas of math in my very very personal opinion, thankfully I haven't seen an stat lover around here, or I wouldn't hear the end of that.
 
If anyone wants to talk or argue further about scientific subjects (particularly regarding the theory behind testing), I would be glad to participate.

 

[beeman458]

It happens, believe me, I'm in those circles after all.
 
FWIW, I run around Silicon Valley, all day long, going in and out of EE's homes and nope, never a problem with negative conversation.
 
sorry if I got personal at some point,
 
You did?
 
Yes, I thought overall, it was an excellent conversation.
 
(need a thumbs up emoticon here)

 

[Roger Strummer]

Quote:

sorry if I got personal at some point,
 
You did?
 
Yes, I thought overall, it was an excellent conversation.
 
(need a thumbs up emoticon here)

Not a lot by head-fi or forum standards, but more than what I usually do, at least when talking serious matters (I try to be a very level headed and patient guy). 
 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

 
Quote:

Roger Strummer wrote:
 
First you are not asked if you hear a difference, you are asked to identify A from B.
 
Well, then, I guess I'm wrong in that all anybody has written about is "hearing" a difference until I brought up the point of feeling a difference when not being able to hear a difference and then all of a sudden, the rules changed.
 
???
 
All you're doing is cementing my conviction as to the bias nature of DBT.

How do you feel the music without hearing it? You don't. The test is about hearing.

 

[alexxfloo]

 
Quote:

 

 

Thread is too long, so I'm just responding to the first post. ` Directional cables, although funny when you think about it, actually have their place (and it's not BS).  Don't laugh at things you don't quite understand.  Here's an example:
 
SOURCE is a CD player powered via the wall.  It outputs an unbalanced (single ended) signal via an RCA out with the ground held at earth ground (we're assuming the built in DAC is marvelous and doesn't require any dusting of diamond sparkles to sound like angels singing).
 
PREAMP is an active preamp powered via battery for low noise, with the ground being held at a V-Ground.
 
POWERAMP is an active Class A amp running off of a giant single rail power brick (like a o11).
 
If you didn't notice, you have 3 different "grounds" in play here.  You have the standard (and best) ground from the Source feeding a battery powered unit (with a decent V-Ground) terminating to the -V of a power brick.  The directional cable comes into play most when you are using the RCA's between the power amp and the preamp.  You will have extra ground currents regardless, but by tightly twisting the wires, you will cancel out a good deal of the noise.  You still want a shield however over the twisted pair (think of it as extending the 0 voltage around the conductors to minimize interference). You only want to terminate the shield at earth ground, which would be on the PREAMP side of things.  Thus, you would have a directional cable.
 
Sorry for the poor explanation, PM if I didn't quite say something clearly or correct (too tired).
​

 
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Really? My friend, please go to school and learn the basics of an electric circuit. Did u even heard about the law of Kirchhoff? ( not related but i wonder what's your level of knowledge, please don't cheat with wiki.)

 

[Spelaeus]

Quote:

 

How do you feel the music without hearing it? You don't. The test is about hearing.

That is a point that should be made *very* clear. The only reason it's been left unmentioned so far is because I honestly thought that it was a given. Apparently not.
 
There is no distinction between "hearing" a difference and "feeling" a difference in terms of audio reproduction. If the cables change the sound, they change the sound. It is quite possible that one would experience an alteration in sound as an alteration in a song's emotional content, but the information that gives rise to that experience is still nothing other than the audio being reproduced. There is no other "magical" factor involved in the emotionality of a song or how it makes you feel. By claiming that cables change the emotional impact of audio, one is stating that there has been a change in sound and that it is experienced emotionally. This makes no difference in DBT. It's still a claim of hearing a difference.