[MusicFirst]

Yes, soundstage is definitely necessary and might be the most important last bit of performance that mega expensive amps and sources can squeeze out of the source material.

Whether or not the soundstage has to be LARGE, though, is subjective. I don't think that it has to be enormous because imaging and spatial accuracy are more important to me. Some headphones do imaging very, very well: K1000, OII, etc.

 

[yourtoys7]

Shure, nothing compares to speakers setup, but as portable it is very satisfying...

 

[milkpowder]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeluiz22 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, you can have soundstage without hifi, as your Logitechs prove, but you can't have hifi without soundstage. Doesnt high fidelity mean increased similarity to live sound? And doesn't live sound always have width, depth and height?

You're absolutely right. Live sound always has width, depth and height. However, reproduced sound also has to resemble the actual instrument or voice regardless of its relative spacial position on stage. Both aspects are important for a high fidelity, true-to-life reproduction. Just using my current headphones and speakers as examples, the HE60 produce a much more nuanced and faithful reproduction of instrumental and vocal sounds than the Diva Utopia Be. Sure, the Diva Utopia Be has so much more depth, width and height, but ultimately, they simply don't sound as real due to their relative lack of detail. Of course, I still maintain that these speakers give me a greater listening enjoyment, but from a purely technical standpoint they are in some ways inferior to the HE60.

One of the phenomenons of this expensive "hobby" is its subjectiveness, without which this forum would not exist. What you consider high fidelity may not be so to another pair of ears. One example: I don't think the E500 is particularly "hifi quality", but others think that they are near-perfect with an ideal tonal balance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MusicFirst /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, soundstage is definitely necessary and might be the most important last bit of performance that mega expensive amps and sources can squeeze out of the source material. Whether or not the soundstage has to be LARGE, though, is subjective. I don't think that it has to be enormous because imaging and spatial accuracy are more important to me. Some headphones do imaging very, very well: K1000, OII, etc.

Imaging and spacial accuracy are definitely important. The O2 and HE60 image superbly from L to R, but not that well depth-wise. The size of the soundstage depends largely on the actual recording venue and technique. You would have to compare different transducers using the same recordings. IMO, a good system should enable one to forget about the technicalities and allow the music to reach out and touch that person's heart. When I am emotionally moved by a recording, then I know I'm listening to a truly high fidelity system. I must say I haven't heard many which have achieved that.

 

[cosmopragma]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeluiz22 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, you can have soundstage without hifi, as your Logitechs prove, but you can't have hifi without soundstage. Doesnt high fidelity mean increased similarity to live sound? And doesn't live sound always have width, depth and height?

Your brain just hasn't adjusted to headphones audio yet.
Some brains finally do (like brains do adjust to two ears with crossfeed and the whole sound warped by HRTFs when you are a baby) and some never will .For the latter headphones audio will never sound natural and the guy quoted by the thread starter seems to be one of those poor inflexible individuums.
Maybe he's just too old and his brain has lost the ability to adjust or it's a genetic defect or just another sign of human variability.
In the end it's not that bad.It's a handicap he can easily live with since avoiding headphones is fairly easy.
Not being able to adjust to pictures for instance like many Yanomami past a certain age that grew up without contact to our civilization would be harder. Quote:

And doesn't live sound always have width, depth and height

Live sound does, but stereophonic speaker audio does certainly not have height.Dummy head (binaural) recordings for headphones do contain height cues , speaker audio does not.

 

[freethegeek]

what is there to debate?...

You use different tools to accomplish different things. If your budget allows, you have a large collection of tools to apply in the circumstance that's relevant. Besides a bunch of toys to just play with because it's fun.

I have a dedicated and treated listening room with more than 40k of electronics in it. But that's really tough to take with me on the train. As well as a gigabag full of goodies that's more than i want to deal with on the subway.

Anyway..

All of that is an awful lot easier to deal with than getting live musicians playing the particular tunes you have stored on vinyl/cd/lossless/mp3 every time you want to listen to something.

so there's my "me too" comment of the day

 

[bburl]

As one person said, apples and oranges. If you are trying to replicate speaker sound and your expectations are based on that, of course you are going to think headphones suck balls. But that's like using the same criteria for evaluating a luxury car that you'd use to evaluate a motorcycle. It's like saying you can't enjoy a ninja because its not an s-class mercedes. The experiences are different, not better or worse.

It sounds like your friend has a closed mind when it comes to headphones and is unwilling to enjoy them for what they are. His loss.

 

[zeluiz22]

Sometimes, there is nothing better than settling in to a great record on a pair of Grados (or whatever your pleasure) and subjectively, the experience is near perfect.

That;s why I love headphones and continue to buy and trade in this hobby ad infinitum.

But if you want to use the OBJECTIVE criteria of audiophilia, which includes staging and imaging as crucial components, you can't compare headphones to speakers, when either is used competently.

 

[003]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeluiz22 /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you mean it when you say you want high-fidelity, then you have to agree with this criticism of headphones. The virtues of headphones are detail and intimacy (as well as privacy), but not hi-fi. No soundstage means no hi-fi. Even headphones touted to have the best soundstage (K701) have none, just a vague impression that the instruments haven't been metaphysically fused together. It is impossible to get the imaging and staging on headphones required to approximate (and the best room and speakers can only approximate) the sense of being in a theater.

This sums it up quite well. However, don't confuse "hi-fi" for "high end" or "high quality". Hi-fi merely means stereo sound. Headphones do not, and can not shake a stick at a truly high end speaker system in a room with proper acoustics.

Also to the people arguing things like "cars vs motorcycles", that is also not quite accurate. Speakers objectively produce much more realistic and life like sound due to the soundstage and imaging. And I believe people say "well headphones still have more detail" have not themselves listened to a truly high end speaker system.

That being said, headphones still offer a large bang for the buck in terms of sound quality, which is what we all appreciate. Now if you want to throw binaural into the mix, that changes things a lot

 

[cyberan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluetick /img/forum/go_quote.gif It made me wonder....do you have headphones because you have to have them (because of the nature of your living environment/lifestyle) or do you prefer them to speakers?

i think we most of us use headphones because of the nature of our environment, i believe that many of us work in front of computers, and though that allows us to enjoy music it obligates us to use headphones for this pleasure, further more when many of us jog or workout we can not Carry our listening room with us and on that case headphones come to the rescue.

i guess what i am saying is that it doesn't matter whether we use it because we have to or because we want to, it exists to fill up a role that speakers can not provide and it it does so very well

.

i have a high end system in a dedicated listening room, and i can assure you that though my headphones (R10) are not exactly speakers(magico) they sure come close in many aspects, and i do find myself listening to my headphones even when time allows me to go into my music room.

 

[MusicFirst]

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkpowder /img/forum/go_quote.gif The O2 and HE60 image superbly from L to R, but not that well depth-wise.

I think the OII and the HE60 both have very good imaging depth. They both layer images quite realistically to my ears. No, they aren't as deep as a good $3000 speaker, but they don't have to be, IMO, as long as they are fairly accurate.

 

[dkpaul]

Well, if I had the money to buy the whole system for about $10K... yeah.. I would dump the headphones right away.
In the meantime, I will stick to my $1K portable to save for the speaker system.

 

[ericj]

Haven't we beaten this dead horse enough?

Some people don't like the headphone experience. Some do. There is no such thing as true fidelity in either speakers or headphones.

 

[aych]

Yeah, they serve different purposes. Like probably listening to ocean waves beside an ocean is better than a recording >.>. comparing headphones to full speaker setups is like apples and watermelons. one will cost you less than 10000 to get a extremely nice setup, with speakers, 10000 wont even buy your cables.

 

[pageman99]

Apples and watermelons is right.

That being said, I've been listening to headphones for decades and frankly, I'm so used to them, I much prefer them to speakers.

Luckily, I have no problems recreating soundstage with headphones, even on cheaper rigs. Practice, I guess. My brain actually recreates soundstage better with headphones than with even the best speakers. Mind you I love speakers, but it's all in what you're used to.

So to the original poster I say, your pal just hasn't let himself learn to enjoy headphones properly.

Which is better, speakers or headphones? Apples and watermelons. (shrugs)

 

[Logistics]

Apples to oranges. Take speakers out into the middle of an open field, how do they sound now? Room acoustics plays too huge a part in things when it comes to speakers. Comparing speakers to headphones is asinine. Rather than saying headphones suck, and stating his opinion as fact, he should have said he doesn't like the sound of headphones.