TonyTripleA
500+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2004
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For some months I have been on a quest for a headphone amp for my MS-pros. So why am I writing in this headphone forum instead of the amp forum. Well, any seasoned headfier would have already guessed – our household ended up with not only an amp but some new cans as well… let me describe the journey my wife and I had…
My travels have recently taken me quite a way and last weekend I had the opportunity to take my quest for the “perfect” affordable headphone amp to Perth, in Western Australia, just down the road some 4,000 kms from Sydney. There fellow headfier Snufkin put up with my wife and I plugging into his gear for more than two hours. First up thanks Snufkin!
I thought I’d share with you some thoughts on the listening we did. Yes, all the opinions here are based on a short listening time and all this equipment deserves a full and no doubt better review. But we had the advantage of being able to easily A/B equipment and these initial impressions might be of interest to others who might not have the chance for even this preliminary comparison. I should add that I have now extended the listening time on selected equipment in the pile of gear I carried home. This included a Talisman T-3H headphone amplifier (dual mono Class A with discrete components and NO OFF SWITCH but more on that later) and my wife bought the Alessandro Music Series Two cans….
The equipment auditioned
I did audition the HD650s (not burned in), Dt440s, Alessandro MS-1s and MS-2s, the Talisman amps (T-3H, T-3H1) and the MG Head OTL 32 valve amp, and the CDPs were the NAD C542 and Cambridge 640. I took my own fully burned in Alessandro MS-pros for the sake of comparison.
Music included a range of material provided by Snufkin as I left my favourite test cds in the hotel room. Travel 4,000 km and leave your stuff 10 km away, figures! But this in fact turned out to be a good thing as Snufkin obviously has some test material to specifically demonstrate different attributes of equipment. His test CD ranged across a variety of contemporary music… most of which I hadn’t heard before, for example: John Hiatt, Dead Can Dance, Fez Perez, The The, Ian Pooley, Thievery Corporation to name a few. Some of the material I was familiar with included Paul Simon’s Gracelands.
Headphones
First up the MS-1s are nice for the price but not up to the other headphones we listened to and so we discounted them quickly. Its unfair to criticise these comfy and sonically “adequate” cans. If I had bought these as a first set of cans I’d be very happy. They do sound better to my ears than my portapros (less boomy and real headphone look and feel).… but lets just move on. I listened to the DT440 and MS-2 cans principally and these are my initial impressions of these two headphone “giants”:
I loved the DT440 but ended up agreeing with my wife’s decision to buy the MS-2 cans. But “what” I hear you say… “he already owns the MS-pros”. Yep, and those MS-2s are so good I’ll tell you why we decided to get those instead of extending our headphone “sonic signature range” by buying something different sounding. The MS-2s are half the price of the MS-pros and the sound is very close. If I said 90% of the sound I might be misleading you because on some music it will vary depending on what you are listening for… but it is up there somewhere close and if it’s a bit less than the MS-pros it is not to the point of significantly effecting the enjoyment of the music.
The DT440s would have been my initial choice on first listen which included some less dynamic music. But when you change the pace and do an A/B you quickly realise the resolution of the MS-2s is just soooo good and the bass impact is really dynamic. My wife felt the DT440 bass was “more” than the MS-2s but impact and resolved detail were less. I agreed with this. When you add very complex and fast music, the MS-2s just stand right out as far superior. For vocals the DT440s do shine and I take nothing away from the sound - I’d be very happy to own the DT440s and at the price these are a steal. Both sets of cans have “groove” with the MS-2s just having more detail and groove.
The MS-2s are about half the price of the MS-pros in Australia. If I could have heard them earlier I would probably have bought MS-2s instead of the MS-pros for myself (that's what I told my wife anyway… he, he, he).
Comfort: for my wife and I comfort was superior on the MS-2s to the DT440s. I found little difference between the MS-2s and my MS-pros which are a tiny bit lighter. The Beyers tuck in under her ears and apply pressure there just above her neck. Once she described it to me I noticed it myself and it then started to feel a bit less comfortable. But overall both the DT440s and MS-2s are fine for comfort. The lower weight of the MS-2s over the DT440s was a plus, and they sit well on both my wife’s and my head whereas the Beyers sort of rested their weight via a point in the middle of the headband. Headband bending could well improve both of these cans comfort.
My thoughts on the HD650 were based on very little listening. No doubt the HD650s are very detailed and "nice" in a kind of way and I know these cans require some serious burn in before passing judgement. But if you want to get "into" the music I'm not sure they do it for me on rock n’ roll. HD650s are a bit heavy, bulky, and not as much sheer fun as the MS-2s. Both my wife and I only felt like listening to the other two sets of cans after an initial 5 minutes spent on the HD650s – this contrasted to over two hours spent on the other cans!!! I didn’t listen to any classical on them but can imagine they would be better suited to this genre. Mind you, when a kettle drum gets hit in a dramatic classical piece of music I’d still reach for my MS-pros, they still amaze me with classical music I’ve listened to for years.
Amps
Amps are such a difficult thing to decide on and in Australia choices are few. Having heard Kunwar’s MAD Anniversary edition amp I was ready to really enjoy this MG Head amp just for the valve sound and it did not disappoint. I can sum it up by saying I almost bought the MG Head OTL 32. What a beautiful smooth sound with bass just perfectly “mellow”.
Snufkin had me A/B a lot of music and I think the Talisman T-3H came to show me significantly "more" detail, across all frequencies but especially in the upper register. This amp uses discrete components instead of op amps which is supposed to leave the music uncoloured. The clarity and detail certainly stand out. In some music the T-3H stood well above the T-3H1 for “life” and detail separation between channels but on some tracks it was more difficult to say it was better than the other, the T-3H1 may have more “roughness” (not sure if that’s a term an audiophile would use). The T-3H is a true Class A dual mono amp (two completely separate power transformers and separate amplifier circuits), the T-3H1 is Class A but no dual mono with only one transformer. There is a preamp version of the T-3H as well but Snufkin said it sounded identical so I didn’t cloud my head with a try.
When I plugged the T-3H in at home I can finally say I can hear details “in full” from my CDP (NAD C542) and MS-pros. Playing albums that were a bit recessed now has them sounding just right, for example Lord of the Rings soundtrack now is superb but was almost a bit muffled/recessed on the NAD amp. HDCDs sound terrific with clarity and detail enhanced. The more I listen the better it gets and my much loved NAD T7741 surround amplifier is not up to the same level of detail and has a muddy bass by comparison... and I never thought I would say that, I thought these were my surround amps strengths!!! I should also restate for comparison my thoughts from a previous review I posted: that I preferred the NAD T741 to the Perreaux and Xcans3 headphone amps so this might let you into just how much I enjoy the Talisman T-3H.
I won’t be moving from the Talisman as far as I can see. But, I can understand why having two headphone amps is common with many headfiers... that valve smoothness is unbeatable with some music and one day the MG Head (or better?) will be mine…. but not till my wallet is talking to me again!
CD players
On these two players first impressions would probably mean you just cannot hear the difference in a shopfront audition unless the “right” music was used. Real comparisons in a quite home environment would of course be the way to go. But some initial impressions had the advantage of Snufkin pointing me to music that helped show the differences. My thoughts include the following.
Snufkin played some specific sections of music and told me what to listen for and yep, the Cambridge has a more emphasised "tinkle" to the sound of things that tinkle. Its upper treble has a certain pure clarity, although this might for some systems verge on bright. Once you hear this crystal clear upper treble tinkle come through you'd probably buy the Cambridge if you liked a forward bright sound. I played some music with large amounts of bass and I reckon the NAD had my vote marginally… but I could be dreaming this…
It might really depend on your system. My wife reckoned we would get fatigued with the slightly higher treble sound to the Cambridge. And now that I own a Talisman amp I believe this is true. If I had a valve amp that cuts the upper treble a bit then I'd go Cambridge. For a good solid state amp like the Talisman I’m happy with the NAD C542.
Both of these units are "superb" value but the NAD is a bit cheaper in Australia and the NAD does HDCD (which I love) and which I understand the Cambridge doesn't. I prefer the NAD remote and Snufkin prefers the Cambridge. I like the NAD remote because the buttons glow in the dark and are in the right place for my fingers. Snufkin likes the Cambridge because it feels solid and did acknowledge that hunting for keys isn’t as logical as on the NAD.
I don’t think either player would disappoint at this price point.
Concluding thoughts
Well, its nice to have a place in Australia to actually hear/compare/be advised on headphone equipment. I don’t hesitate to say how rare such good advise is in this country.
In finishing I should say that after some burn in the MS-2s have gotten even better. After I’ve had a few hundred hours on these I’ll write a detailed comparison to the MS-pros. And no… my MS-pros are not for sale ever!!!
I cannot determine any striking difference with the Talisman amp as it burns in but I do feel more strongly about the strengths of this amp as my ears start to pick up the nuances this amp can show. It has a magnificent feel of impact and life while not seeming to change the music in any way. A very clean, detail enhancing amp. Music that was good before now comes across as unbelievable, for example Dire Straights HDCD version of Brothers in Arms was okay on my old amp, and with the Talisman now blows me away with its upper treble detail and clean impact. I just heard one bit of music tonight that was so real I turned around to see if someone was singing behind me – a spooky real sound (I should also add that my wife is actually singing beautifully next to me with her MS-2s on: and they are powered from her substandard computer sound card at the moment). I’m re-listening to everything I own just for the experience of finding new details and impact in the music.
On the Talisman’s lack of a on/off switch. I did read the amp’s manual and I must now reluctantly acquiesce to the manufacturer’s decision not to have an on/off switch. The manual states it takes an hour to warm up this amp to its maximum performance (Kunwar can detect a small change in the bass but as yet, no I cannot detect this improvement, but heck the manufacturer made the amp right - they should know?) and so the switch was deemed unnecessary as you will choose to leave it on.
I wrote this in case anyone found my very preliminary experiences interesting, so please excuse my initial thoughts which may well be flawed as they are based on limited listening time. Feel free to add some more experienced comments.
Cheers,
TonyAAA
My travels have recently taken me quite a way and last weekend I had the opportunity to take my quest for the “perfect” affordable headphone amp to Perth, in Western Australia, just down the road some 4,000 kms from Sydney. There fellow headfier Snufkin put up with my wife and I plugging into his gear for more than two hours. First up thanks Snufkin!
I thought I’d share with you some thoughts on the listening we did. Yes, all the opinions here are based on a short listening time and all this equipment deserves a full and no doubt better review. But we had the advantage of being able to easily A/B equipment and these initial impressions might be of interest to others who might not have the chance for even this preliminary comparison. I should add that I have now extended the listening time on selected equipment in the pile of gear I carried home. This included a Talisman T-3H headphone amplifier (dual mono Class A with discrete components and NO OFF SWITCH but more on that later) and my wife bought the Alessandro Music Series Two cans….
The equipment auditioned
I did audition the HD650s (not burned in), Dt440s, Alessandro MS-1s and MS-2s, the Talisman amps (T-3H, T-3H1) and the MG Head OTL 32 valve amp, and the CDPs were the NAD C542 and Cambridge 640. I took my own fully burned in Alessandro MS-pros for the sake of comparison.
Music included a range of material provided by Snufkin as I left my favourite test cds in the hotel room. Travel 4,000 km and leave your stuff 10 km away, figures! But this in fact turned out to be a good thing as Snufkin obviously has some test material to specifically demonstrate different attributes of equipment. His test CD ranged across a variety of contemporary music… most of which I hadn’t heard before, for example: John Hiatt, Dead Can Dance, Fez Perez, The The, Ian Pooley, Thievery Corporation to name a few. Some of the material I was familiar with included Paul Simon’s Gracelands.
Headphones
First up the MS-1s are nice for the price but not up to the other headphones we listened to and so we discounted them quickly. Its unfair to criticise these comfy and sonically “adequate” cans. If I had bought these as a first set of cans I’d be very happy. They do sound better to my ears than my portapros (less boomy and real headphone look and feel).… but lets just move on. I listened to the DT440 and MS-2 cans principally and these are my initial impressions of these two headphone “giants”:
I loved the DT440 but ended up agreeing with my wife’s decision to buy the MS-2 cans. But “what” I hear you say… “he already owns the MS-pros”. Yep, and those MS-2s are so good I’ll tell you why we decided to get those instead of extending our headphone “sonic signature range” by buying something different sounding. The MS-2s are half the price of the MS-pros and the sound is very close. If I said 90% of the sound I might be misleading you because on some music it will vary depending on what you are listening for… but it is up there somewhere close and if it’s a bit less than the MS-pros it is not to the point of significantly effecting the enjoyment of the music.
The DT440s would have been my initial choice on first listen which included some less dynamic music. But when you change the pace and do an A/B you quickly realise the resolution of the MS-2s is just soooo good and the bass impact is really dynamic. My wife felt the DT440 bass was “more” than the MS-2s but impact and resolved detail were less. I agreed with this. When you add very complex and fast music, the MS-2s just stand right out as far superior. For vocals the DT440s do shine and I take nothing away from the sound - I’d be very happy to own the DT440s and at the price these are a steal. Both sets of cans have “groove” with the MS-2s just having more detail and groove.
The MS-2s are about half the price of the MS-pros in Australia. If I could have heard them earlier I would probably have bought MS-2s instead of the MS-pros for myself (that's what I told my wife anyway… he, he, he).
Comfort: for my wife and I comfort was superior on the MS-2s to the DT440s. I found little difference between the MS-2s and my MS-pros which are a tiny bit lighter. The Beyers tuck in under her ears and apply pressure there just above her neck. Once she described it to me I noticed it myself and it then started to feel a bit less comfortable. But overall both the DT440s and MS-2s are fine for comfort. The lower weight of the MS-2s over the DT440s was a plus, and they sit well on both my wife’s and my head whereas the Beyers sort of rested their weight via a point in the middle of the headband. Headband bending could well improve both of these cans comfort.
My thoughts on the HD650 were based on very little listening. No doubt the HD650s are very detailed and "nice" in a kind of way and I know these cans require some serious burn in before passing judgement. But if you want to get "into" the music I'm not sure they do it for me on rock n’ roll. HD650s are a bit heavy, bulky, and not as much sheer fun as the MS-2s. Both my wife and I only felt like listening to the other two sets of cans after an initial 5 minutes spent on the HD650s – this contrasted to over two hours spent on the other cans!!! I didn’t listen to any classical on them but can imagine they would be better suited to this genre. Mind you, when a kettle drum gets hit in a dramatic classical piece of music I’d still reach for my MS-pros, they still amaze me with classical music I’ve listened to for years.
Amps
Amps are such a difficult thing to decide on and in Australia choices are few. Having heard Kunwar’s MAD Anniversary edition amp I was ready to really enjoy this MG Head amp just for the valve sound and it did not disappoint. I can sum it up by saying I almost bought the MG Head OTL 32. What a beautiful smooth sound with bass just perfectly “mellow”.
Snufkin had me A/B a lot of music and I think the Talisman T-3H came to show me significantly "more" detail, across all frequencies but especially in the upper register. This amp uses discrete components instead of op amps which is supposed to leave the music uncoloured. The clarity and detail certainly stand out. In some music the T-3H stood well above the T-3H1 for “life” and detail separation between channels but on some tracks it was more difficult to say it was better than the other, the T-3H1 may have more “roughness” (not sure if that’s a term an audiophile would use). The T-3H is a true Class A dual mono amp (two completely separate power transformers and separate amplifier circuits), the T-3H1 is Class A but no dual mono with only one transformer. There is a preamp version of the T-3H as well but Snufkin said it sounded identical so I didn’t cloud my head with a try.
When I plugged the T-3H in at home I can finally say I can hear details “in full” from my CDP (NAD C542) and MS-pros. Playing albums that were a bit recessed now has them sounding just right, for example Lord of the Rings soundtrack now is superb but was almost a bit muffled/recessed on the NAD amp. HDCDs sound terrific with clarity and detail enhanced. The more I listen the better it gets and my much loved NAD T7741 surround amplifier is not up to the same level of detail and has a muddy bass by comparison... and I never thought I would say that, I thought these were my surround amps strengths!!! I should also restate for comparison my thoughts from a previous review I posted: that I preferred the NAD T741 to the Perreaux and Xcans3 headphone amps so this might let you into just how much I enjoy the Talisman T-3H.
I won’t be moving from the Talisman as far as I can see. But, I can understand why having two headphone amps is common with many headfiers... that valve smoothness is unbeatable with some music and one day the MG Head (or better?) will be mine…. but not till my wallet is talking to me again!
CD players
On these two players first impressions would probably mean you just cannot hear the difference in a shopfront audition unless the “right” music was used. Real comparisons in a quite home environment would of course be the way to go. But some initial impressions had the advantage of Snufkin pointing me to music that helped show the differences. My thoughts include the following.
Snufkin played some specific sections of music and told me what to listen for and yep, the Cambridge has a more emphasised "tinkle" to the sound of things that tinkle. Its upper treble has a certain pure clarity, although this might for some systems verge on bright. Once you hear this crystal clear upper treble tinkle come through you'd probably buy the Cambridge if you liked a forward bright sound. I played some music with large amounts of bass and I reckon the NAD had my vote marginally… but I could be dreaming this…
It might really depend on your system. My wife reckoned we would get fatigued with the slightly higher treble sound to the Cambridge. And now that I own a Talisman amp I believe this is true. If I had a valve amp that cuts the upper treble a bit then I'd go Cambridge. For a good solid state amp like the Talisman I’m happy with the NAD C542.
Both of these units are "superb" value but the NAD is a bit cheaper in Australia and the NAD does HDCD (which I love) and which I understand the Cambridge doesn't. I prefer the NAD remote and Snufkin prefers the Cambridge. I like the NAD remote because the buttons glow in the dark and are in the right place for my fingers. Snufkin likes the Cambridge because it feels solid and did acknowledge that hunting for keys isn’t as logical as on the NAD.
I don’t think either player would disappoint at this price point.
Concluding thoughts
Well, its nice to have a place in Australia to actually hear/compare/be advised on headphone equipment. I don’t hesitate to say how rare such good advise is in this country.
In finishing I should say that after some burn in the MS-2s have gotten even better. After I’ve had a few hundred hours on these I’ll write a detailed comparison to the MS-pros. And no… my MS-pros are not for sale ever!!!
I cannot determine any striking difference with the Talisman amp as it burns in but I do feel more strongly about the strengths of this amp as my ears start to pick up the nuances this amp can show. It has a magnificent feel of impact and life while not seeming to change the music in any way. A very clean, detail enhancing amp. Music that was good before now comes across as unbelievable, for example Dire Straights HDCD version of Brothers in Arms was okay on my old amp, and with the Talisman now blows me away with its upper treble detail and clean impact. I just heard one bit of music tonight that was so real I turned around to see if someone was singing behind me – a spooky real sound (I should also add that my wife is actually singing beautifully next to me with her MS-2s on: and they are powered from her substandard computer sound card at the moment). I’m re-listening to everything I own just for the experience of finding new details and impact in the music.
On the Talisman’s lack of a on/off switch. I did read the amp’s manual and I must now reluctantly acquiesce to the manufacturer’s decision not to have an on/off switch. The manual states it takes an hour to warm up this amp to its maximum performance (Kunwar can detect a small change in the bass but as yet, no I cannot detect this improvement, but heck the manufacturer made the amp right - they should know?) and so the switch was deemed unnecessary as you will choose to leave it on.
I wrote this in case anyone found my very preliminary experiences interesting, so please excuse my initial thoughts which may well be flawed as they are based on limited listening time. Feel free to add some more experienced comments.
Cheers,
TonyAAA
