[A.Thorsen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSloth Nope. I don't think many people would claim that the AT woodies are technically better performers - that has nothing to do with peoples preference for them, but on a slightly more objective scale it would be hard to argue they are better. Same for Grado's - you can get one for $1k, but it isn't technically a 'better' performer; it's different, and people will love it, but people will also hate it. I think the question is whether your investment will bring appreciable results over and above the K701 you know and love. That's hard to call. I've been from the bottom of the pile, up to the top, and then back down a little, starting with HD-580's and a Total Bithead (old version), getting up to a Maxed out Balanced Home with HD-650/Balanced Equinox cable, and now I'm down to the 'convertible' with Desktop DAC, '06 Max Modules and HD-650 w/stock cable. Having been through all of the upgrade paths of cables etc. I did appreciate the differences, and I did find the Equinox to be a worthy upgrade at that point. However, I'm not sure I'd do it all over again, and find that I enjoy the stock cable in my current system to the degree that I would rather keep my money. Of course, if I didn't have to pay for it I'd take another Equinox any day. For the K701's, I'm considering recabling because I do have some issues with the sound, particularly the upper midrange which I find a little 'gritty' in classical music. Though everyone hears differently, I basically hear this headphone exactly the way the HeadRoom graph shows it. Will a cable upgrade change that? I don't really know, and would probably be better off just calling it quits, but there's always that nagging feeling that the perfect sound might just be a re-cable away... Regarding the post about the ludicrous proportion of cable price:headphone price, at the NY meet last November Tyll had a pair of Sennheiser 201's recabled with Cardas Cable (yes, a $150 recable job on a $20 pair of headphones). It was ridiculous, and of course it will never be sold as an option, however the improvement was quite obvious to my ears. No, it didn't sonically make the 201's into a $170 pair of headphones, but it was clearly an improvement. Once you are near the $400 or so price point, you are getting to the top of the currently available headphone tree, unless you have very particular tastes in frequency response, presentation, and looks, so the ONLY option left for improving your headphones themselves is to look to a recable. At such a point, if you have the money, any price is justifiable in the face of lack of other choices...

Great post. I know that all of this is very subjective and the law of diminishing returns always looms on high.

That being said, I love my 701's as is, with the stock cable and have found, like many others, that burn-in time and quality of components GREATLY matter with these cans.

You can check my profile for a recent update to that end.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samgotit $250 of worth of cabling on a $300 head phone, without any kind of quantifiable measurements, is quite possible the dumbest thing I've seen here yet.

There are probably more than a hundred members, maybe several hundred, on this forum who have recabled their Sennheiser 600's, 650's, etc., with upgraded cables in that price range. Sounds like you just called all of those members idiots. Nice

P.S. I do understand your point, though. I was listening to my high end headphone system tonight and really enjoying it, but then I realized I have no "quantifiable measurements" saying it sounds any better than my car radio! I'm selling it tomorrow, and listening to my car radio from now on.

 

[Samgotit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS There are probably more than a hundred members, maybe several hundred, on this forum who have recabled their Sennheiser 600's, 650's, etc., with upgraded cables in that price range. Sounds like you just called all of those members idiots. Nice

No, as I read, this discussion is about an en masse recabling of the K701. If you read what you quoted, I called it dumb. I did not call any one member an idiot.

What I consider dumb is paying 83% of the cost of the K701 for a recabling. I believe a stepwise approach to the issue, if it exists, would be more prudent and cost effective. This would include starting with a cheaper, comparable, and larger diameter cable rather that jumping straight to a cable that requires its own guard.

 

[rodbac]

Does anyone have a breakdown or blowup of one of these cables that is capable of audibly changing a 20KHz signal over, what, 10-20 feet?

I want to see what else is in there besides wire.

[edit]

This is a serious request. My email to Cardas wasn't returned (~1 year ago) and after I heard no difference I didn't have the kahones to chalk up the cost to knowledge...

 

[TheSloth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samgotit This would include starting with a cheaper, comparable, and larger diameter cable rather that jumping straight to a cable that requires its own guard.

Why? That's like saying 'don't get the 650's, get the 580's, and then the 600's, at which point you are finally ready for the 650's'. That is NOT cost effective, nor is it in the end cheaper.

And the cost of the cable and the cost of the headphones are not remotely comparable. The headphones are mass produced by a large multi-national company. The cable is produced by a small company, and finished and fitted to the headphone usually by one man who puts in a few hours to do the job thoroughly. The actual parts cost involved, in proportion to the headphone is much lower than the 1:1 that the end cost comes out to be. If the K701 was made the same way the accompanying cable is, it would probably cost over $2000.

 

[TheSloth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodbac Does anyone have a breakdown or blowup of one of these cables that is capable of audibly changing a 20KHz signal over, what, 10-20 feet? I want to see what else is in there besides wire. [edit] This is a serious request. My email to Cardas wasn't returned (~1 year ago) and after I heard no difference I didn't have the kahones to chalk up the cost to knowledge...

That's a slightly odd request - you seem to be asking for a photograph or diagram of the cable to illustrate sonic differences?

 

[mypasswordis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSloth That's a slightly odd request - you seem to be asking for a photograph or diagram of the cable to illustrate sonic differences?

Well, I don't think he means the sonic differences themselves, but what causes them. As in, what's different in a Cardas than in a stock cable or some other cable.

I would think it would just be the materials used, but I wouldn't know...

 

[rodbac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSloth That's a slightly odd request - you seem to be asking for a photograph or diagram of the cable to illustrate sonic differences?

I know what can cause sonic differences, and loosely how much of a difference they can cause, and I know loosely how big a difference has to be to be detected by the human ear.

I would like to see what is in these cables besides wire and connectors that audibly attenuates such a mundane signal over so short a distance.

Not an odd request at all I don't think, although I suspect it would have to come from the companies themselves, or possibly from some curious Head-Fier who was willing to dismantle the device (and probably ruin the resale value even if he/she was able to reassemble it).

 

[Meyvn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodbac I know what can cause sonic differences, and loosely how much of a difference they can cause, and I know loosely how big a difference has to be to be detected by the human ear. I would like to see what is in these cables besides wire and connectors that audibly attenuates such a mundane signal over so short a distance. Not an odd request at all I don't think, although I suspect it would have to come from the companies themselves, or possibly from some curious Head-Fier who was willing to dismantle the device (and probably ruin the resale value even if he/she was able to reassemble it).

In other words, you think it's placebo effect, and you want evidence to prove/disprove this hypothesis. Correct?

Has anyone actually heard a recabled K701? I know MoonAudio has a couple, but that's the only confirmed case I've heard of.

 

[Meyvn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSloth And the cost of the cable and the cost of the headphones are not remotely comparable. The headphones are mass produced by a large multi-national company. The cable is produced by a small company, and finished and fitted to the headphone usually by one man who puts in a few hours to do the job thoroughly. The actual parts cost involved, in proportion to the headphone is much lower than the 1:1 that the end cost comes out to be. If the K701 was made the same way the accompanying cable is, it would probably cost over $2000.

Somehow, what I glean from this is, 'upgrade cables only cost more because they're made by one man. Buy mass produced cable, because it's much better bang for the buck.'

 

[A.Thorsen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meyvn Somehow, what I glean from this is, 'upgrade cables only cost more because they're made by one man. Buy mass produced cable, because it's much better bang for the buck.'

Not sure if that's what he means, but that certainly seems a logical statement to me.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodbac Does anyone have a breakdown or blowup of one of these cables that is capable of audibly changing a 20KHz signal over, what, 10-20 feet? I want to see what else is in there besides wire. [edit] This is a serious request. My email to Cardas wasn't returned (~1 year ago) and after I heard no difference I didn't have the kahones to chalk up the cost to knowledge...

If I recall, Cardas' web page had some explanation of the approaches they take toward materials and construction geometry of their cables.

 

[rodbac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth If I recall, Cardas' web page had some explanation of the approaches they take toward materials and construction geometry of their cables.

I think I saw that long ago before emailing them, but neither of those things will even begin to have an audible effect on the signal in the realm we're dealing with. Their website reads like an idiot's guide to snake oil.

If there is an audible difference, there must be something else added to the cable (a resistor or something) to attenuate the signal.

Anyone know?

 

[TheSloth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meyvn Somehow, what I glean from this is, 'upgrade cables only cost more because they're made by one man. Buy mass produced cable, because it's much better bang for the buck.'

Well in many cases, that is true. Look at a maker like 'www.bluejeanscables.com'. I think their cables are fantastic for the money (or even for any money). Why? Because they are using cable that is mass produced to stringent spec, and has entire mechanised assembly systems designed specifically for it which are highly efficient, reliable and effective. In fact, I ended up selling off all of my boutique cables because I felt the much cheaper belden based cables did the job better. I once used Cat 5E ethernet cable to make speaker cable and IMO it did a great job (3 strands per speaker, braided, twisted pairs split in half between positive and negative terminals). That cable costs next not nothing in comaprison to audio cables, but again is made to stringent spec, and talking about mass production, there must be thousands and thousands of miles of it produced every day. It's damn ugly though...

Many DIY'ers use cables like Canare Star Quad or Mogami Microphone Cable for example for recables for the exact reasons I stated above.

However, these cables are not perfect for headphone use, and currently no cable of higher quality than what comes standard on K701's or 650's for example is mass produced specifically for that use. What is special about headphones? The cable has to be as thin as possible, yet as low gauge within that as possible, it must be light, it must be as flexible as possible, and it must have as low microphonics as possible and even specific cosmetics to go with the headphone. To get all of those things in one is extremely difficult, and as no-one mass-produces a cable tailored to all of those particular requirements, there is a strong market to small boutique cable makers who can custom make cables for those exact requirements. At the most simple level, look at the attention in the pictures to finding an outer covering for the cable that matches the colour scheme of the headphone. Not sonically important, but it did take time and effort on the time of the maker which will be passed on as cost to the consumer.

Furthermore, when headphones are concerned, many users are looking to 'tune' the sound of their headphones. With a recable, I personally am not interested in sound tuning, but rather just a better transmission medium, however many people wish to correct or make up for defects in the frequency response by adding a cable that is skewed in a particular way. No mass production house would ever want to make such a cable for obvious reasons, and again that's where the boutique houses come in. They can hand tune the response of a cable, often by using interesting metall alloys such as gold-silver to match in a particular way with the frequency response of a given headphone. Remember that when people are talking about 'upgrade' cables, they aren't necessarily talking about a cable that makes a better electrical connection, or has better conductivity, lower inductance, capacitance or any of the other measures of quality. In fact, qualitatively a boutique cable may be tuned to be worse in one of those areas to give a particular result. That 'tuning' of characteristics is what gives it it's 'sound'. That 'sound' isn't necessarily more accurate to the source or headphone, however that doesn't mean it isn't better for some users, and isn't worth paying just about any price they can afford to get it.

Look at the comments on the Zu Mobius cable for the Sennheiser 650 for example. People almost always say it 'removes the veil' or something to that effect. Does that mean it is doing something technically better than the stock cable? It may be, but to change the frequency response in such a way as to have an obviously brighter treble? That's tuning, not absolute quality of wire. But that's the only way to get that tuning, so it's worth the price if that's the sound you prefer. Again, not for me, but it is for many.

Finally, to correct your statement, it should really read 'upgrade cables can cost more because they're often made by one man. Consider mass produced cable, because it can be much better bang for the buck if you are looking for nothing more than accurate, quality wire'

 

[TheSloth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth If I recall, Cardas' web page had some explanation of the approaches they take toward materials and construction geometry of their cables.

It does make a fun read, but there is very little scientific basis to their rather pseudo-sciency statements. George Cardas, as much as he might like to be, is no physicist.

I do very much like many of their cables, but I do wish they would replace their rant about magic resonances and other such things with something a little more realistic.