[SergioRZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exit Pupil /img/forum/go_quote.gif having heard the 701s i know they can't produce anything near the bass depth or response to come close to matching say a live double bass and drums for example. the hd650 which some are accusing of too much bass can't even come close, which is why most decent higher end phones have even more bass impact and presence than the hd650. just my opinions no point in trying to turn the 701 into something it isn't and can never be. like someone else pointed out , some of its inherent strengths are probably tied to its lean bass.

Those are ridiculous claims my friend... are you saying that those higher end headphones are even worse than the HD650? More bloated bass for more money? hehehehehe don't think so...

Can anyone let me know what speakers (with what source/amp and playing in what room) can make 10hz-39hz with amazing linearity and without a hint of distortion? Sure, they exist... but will cost you dozens of thousands of dollars for the room treatment alone, not to mention the price of the gear...

 

[sejarzo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Murphy /img/forum/go_quote.gif What are you basing this information on? It doesn't really make any sense. Bob Ludwig used to master lots of records; rock jazz and classical. Either his working system was flat or it wasn't. I doubt he was using a different system to master each genre of music. A mastering engineer knows what he wants the final product to sound like no matter what the type of music. No way he would use some bass-heavy speakers to master a disk and have it come out bass-shy on a normal system.

Most working systems are not "flat", per se. Truly "flat" systems don't sound correct to most people. If one uses something such as a TacT system for DRC, but fails to apply a house curve that emphasizes the bass/rolls off the highs, the end result sounds horrifically bass-shy.

And when I wrote of classical, I mean albums done by folks who do virtually all of their work in that realm and very little elsewhere. They have typically used entirely different monitor speakers and systems versus the pop/rock world--check out the inside back cover of Telarc CD's to see how their systems have changed over the years, but never used the sort of monitors that were common elsewhere.

 

[Stephen Murphy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sejarzo /img/forum/go_quote.gif Most working systems are not "flat", per se. Truly "flat" systems don't sound correct to most people. If one uses something such as a TacT system for DRC, but fails to apply a house curve that emphasizes the bass/rolls off the highs, the end result sounds horrifically bass-shy.

I have no idea what you are talking about because I don't know what TacT or DRC even is. But I do know that if there were a mastering engineer who, like in your original post, mastered a rock album on a really bassy system so it sounded weak on any other normal system, he wouldn't get any more jobs anyway.

I agree that whatever system an engineer uses, it may not be technically "flat", but it is "flat" as far as he is concerned. ie, it is his reference.

 

[NiceCans]

Instead of speculation, why don't-cha go "get it straight from the horse's mouth" so to speak?

And ask at Steve Hoffman Music Forum how flat a system he uses for mastering and why?

 

[Stephen Murphy]

You will get as many questions as answers over there as well, even from the pros.

Should studio monitors be flat? thread

 

[sejarzo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Murphy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have no idea what you are talking about because I don't know what TacT or DRC even is. But I do know that if there were a mastering engineer who, like in your original post, mastered a rock album on a really bassy system so it sounded weak on any other normal system, he wouldn't get any more jobs anyway. I agree that whatever system an engineer uses, it may not be technically "flat", but it is "flat" as far as he is concerned. ie, it is his reference.

TacT is a maker of Digital Room Correction systems that can adjust a system for what you apparently want to call "technically flat" response (but is actually just "flat response", no need for the qualifier.) If you run a correction on a typical audiophile system and listen to it in a ruler-flat mode (without rolling off the highs) it almost always sounds pretty awful--as if one woofer is gone is about the best way I can describe it.

You must admit that the overall bass/treble or dark/bright balance varies quite a bit throughout the catalog of pop/rock recordings, correct? To what do you attribute that difference?

 

[pfloding]

If the sound that goes into the ears is altered to compensate for the fact that the body won't pick up vibrations, then this sound is not realistic. It may give a nice impression, but it won't be true to life. The more of this boost, the less realistic. (And if the frequency response is further altered to compensate for weak amplifiers, then it's getting even worse.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just because the akg's are light on the bass does not mean that other phones that are more bass heavy than it are unrealistic. The akg's have tight bass yes. However they do not have "realistic" bass imo because on a lot of recordings it is a false presentation within the lower frequencies. For music like rock or hip hop, it simply will not reproduce the lower frequencies accurately imo. For jazz, classical, etc. the bass is perfect and does not leave you wanting for more but for some genres it is a different story.

 

[Acoustic Chef]

Back on subject, back to my cable recommendation,

What I've heard thus far; the K701's low-end can be manipulated to infinity. The low-end I got out of these things is just absolutely insane! This meaty, weighty low-end was obtained through equipment but most dramatically through power cords and interconnects.
It’s unfortunate I’m now a member of trade and can’t go into specifics, but I highly recommend looking in this direction.


Quick note,
In most cases; the problem with color is its fascist with a threshold. Going by what I've heard, I'm confidant in saying the K701's are limitless because of its truth they speak so well.

 

[rincewind]

Try a non-oversampling DAC/CDP and try an amplifier with more power to spare. One or both of these can give more than enough kick.

 

[number1sixerfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfloding /img/forum/go_quote.gif If the sound that goes into the ears is altered to compensate for the fact that the body won't pick up vibrations, then this sound is not realistic. It may give a nice impression, but it won't be true to life. The more of this boost, the less realistic. (And if the frequency response is further altered to compensate for weak amplifiers, then it's getting even worse.)

This same conversation is going on in a couple threads. So are you saying that phones that have more bass than the k701 are compensating and giving a false impression? Wouldn't this make high quality reference cans like the hp1000 and R10 unrealistic in comparison?

 

[pfloding]

Quote:

Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif This same conversation is going on in a couple threads. So are you saying that phones that have more bass than the k701 are compensating and giving a false impression? Wouldn't this make high quality reference cans like the hp1000 and R10 unrealistic in comparison?

I can't comment on those other headphones, or any other conversation on the subject. Perhaps a higher end headphone has more refined compensating EQ curve that gives less coloring.

Also, what sounds good is not necessarily what is most correct. To complicate the matter further, recording, mixing mastering etc affects sound -so one headphone may suit some type of music/recording/mastering better than others.

 

[Stephen Murphy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sejarzo /img/forum/go_quote.gif You must admit that the overall bass/treble or dark/bright balance varies quite a bit throughout the catalog of pop/rock recordings, correct? To what do you attribute that difference?

Having read posts over at Steve Hoffman's site over the last couple of years I have come to believe mastering engineers, at least the good ones, know exactly what they are doing and are intimately familiar with every aspect of their systems. They are keenly aware of how what they are doing will translate into the final product. That being said, they are only doing the bidding of their clients. Whatever the client signs off on is how the final product will sound. If the client wants more cowbell, they will give him more cowbell.

 

[Acoustic Chef]

I know when I build a system my goal is linearity and neutrality while maintaining as much information as possible. I think you would all be shocked and amazed how things can come together the closer you come to this goal.

I don’t understand how anyone can expect to get anywhere building off a subjective genre synergy. It’s like playing with an EQ while listening to a certain album; yes you can get it sounding good but the second you start listening to something else it sounds off.

 

[SergioRZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif This same conversation is going on in a couple threads. So are you saying that phones that have more bass than the k701 are compensating and giving a false impression? Wouldn't this make high quality reference cans like the hp1000 and R10 unrealistic in comparison?

You're getting this wrong...

Any output with more bass than what is recorded and intended to be heard is unrealistic and not faithfull to the intentions of the artist/engineer/producer. Basically... it's a bad thing, unless you happen to like it and then it's just your personal taste that matters.

Any cans that output more GOOD bass, present in the recording, than what the 701 cans do, it's a good thing, that should make those cans better than the 701's.

Any cans that output more unrealistic and not existant bass (like what you can hear from Senn's 600/650) than the 701's, it's a bad thing, and should make those cans worse than the 701's.

It's quite simple. The 701's, as I see it, and comparing to the sound I hear on a studio that cost hundreds of thounsands of dollars, or comparing to what I hear from a pair of B&W Nautilus with 8 Classe amplifiers in a perfectly treated room, are very good and have very faithfull bass performance.

The 701's have, indeed, pretty much all the bass anyone should ever need.

 

[number1sixerfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SergioRZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif You're getting this wrong... Any output with more bass than what is recorded and intended to be heard is unrealistic and not faithfull to the intentions of the artist/engineer/producer. Basically... it's a bad thing, unless you happen to like it and then it's just your personal taste that matters. Any cans that output more GOOD bass, present in the recording, than what the 701 cans do, it's a good thing, that should make those cans better than the 701's. Any cans that output more unrealistic and not existant bass (like what you can hear from Senn's 600/650) than the 701's, it's a bad thing, and should make those cans worse than the 701's. It's quite simple. The 701's, as I see it, and comparing to the sound I hear on a studio that cost hundreds of thounsands of dollars, or comparing to what I hear from a pair of B&W Nautilus with 8 Classe amplifiers in a perfectly treated room, are very good and have very faithfull bass performance. The 701's have, indeed, pretty much all the bass anyone should ever need.

No, I do understand this and it's the entire point and reason I asked the question.

I know that the hp1000 and many phones at that price point have "good" bass. I asked the question to point out that just because a phone has more bass than the k701 does not mean that it is unrealistic or boomy bass, it can be just as tight and controlled as the k701's. It's almost as if people are saying that the k701's bass should be the standard for other phones to match, but quite frankly it isn't. Even you are saying that the k701 has all the bass anyone should ever need and I guess this is where we can agree to disagree.