[davebot]

I've recently been reassigned to a work group that's much more crowded and loud, and I'm looking for new headphones as self-defense.  I've hit on AKG K272, which I have found under $200.
 
Can I do better for under $200?  I've been away from this forum for a while, and I'm reading about all these new possibilities.  Everyone has their favorites.  My head is swimming.  I want closed phones for isolation, and I don't want to have to use an amp.  That makes my AKG 501 and Beyer DT990 less suitable.  I have a cheerful little Grado SR60, but it doesn't provide much isolation.
 
Would the AKG K272 be like the K501, but perhaps with more bass and happy un-amped?
 
What I mainly listen to is classical music: piano, brass quintet, full orchestra (Respighi, Mahler, etc).  I play trumpet and piano, so I listen carefully for timbre on those instruments.  I don't listen that loud.  I like the airy, big soundstage of the AKG and Beyer phones I have, and the detail, and the naturalness.  Would the K272 be a step in that direction?  Would something else be a bigger step in that direction?
 
Thanks!
 

 

[electropop]

I liked the K272 very much and preferred them to anything that was closed and sub 200usd, even more. Had the SRH840, HD25-1 before.. They're really smooth and easy to listen to and not to mention comfortable. Discerning instruments is easy and they play to the note. No harsh peaks anywhere. 
 
I ran into the KNS8400 and have owned those for the past few weeks and they're the only headphone that in many ways are much better than the K272. Especially for a musician. I find myself listening to music more and distinguishing everything much better than with anything else. Pitch articulation is absolutely phenomenal: listening to trumpet players' improvisation and little vibratos and other musical cues become audible, even on poor masters. So do small guitar slides changing note at different volumes (great dynamics). My girlfriend has played the trumpet quite a long time and when I played some familiar music to her through these cans, she became sad as she had tabbed notes for her band project not completely wrong, but largely lacking, using a different pair of headphones (might've been the HD25-1). So, for modal jazz, harmonically or rhythmically rich music, these are absolutely worth it. For someone (dare I say most of head-fi), who listens to mainly vocals and appreciates a particular presentation, there might be more seducing options. But for the musician, I can't recommend these enough.
 
One small caveat: the treble is still a bit too forward. It's remarkably fast, discerning cymbal work with ease, for instance, but relative to the rest of the FR, it's a little loud... I've somewhat gotten used to this, but at louder volumes they become a bit fatiguing.
 
I haven't heard the 501, but I doubt the K272 will feed any bass-needs.. It's clear in its presentation, making everything audible, but doesn't provide that 'thump' many crave for. The KNS8400 is a bit louder, but also tighter and better at pitch articulation. At first they didn't discern some material (Aynsley Dunbar's kick drum on a Zappa album), I noticed, but now they do and much better when going back to the K272. Burn-in? They hadn't been played for longer than 30 minutes then... I dunno. Hard to believe it's in my head, because a concrete subject was at first inaudible, but then audible... Hmm. 

 
Anyways, for 50 bucks less, I'd say go for these. 

 

[davebot]

Cool suggestion-- thanks!  I've been reading about the KNS-8400.  One thing worries me, though: a couple people have described these as being bright.  Perhaps a little treble emphasis helps people who would use these for monitoring or analyzing the notes the musicians are playing.  But that might also make these a little less of a "music lover's can".  What do you think?
 
I don't know how much the comments people have made reflect their musical preferences.  For me, I want (or say I want) neutrality.  I want to listen to Doc Severinsen or Phil Smith or Maurice Andre before I do my trumpet practice, and I want to hear exactly what their tone sounds like, as an example to emulate.  But I'm not trying to write down and analyze the notes played by an improviser.  I do really like the detail in my K501s and DT990s, but I also like hearing accurate timbres -- not having to mentally adjust and remind myself that "this is a little brighter than Bud Herseth really sounds."  Would you still recommend the KNS-8400 to me over the AKG?
 
Thanks!

 

[electropop]

More accurate timbre than K272? Definitely. I don't think the slightly bright treble gets in the way of the trumpet at all. 
 
To me, this is a music lover's can. I want good pitch articulation from my cans, since I listen to a lot of jazz and 70s "overproduced" stuff in general. Great to be able to hear what all the players are able to play, gets you deeper into the music itself. The K272 were good at discerning musical information and actually so good, I didn't bother to look for a more "real" sounding can. The 8400, at least to me with my experience of listening to instruments live, sound not only that but also take pitch accuracy to another level in comparison. I think the 272's might've subdued some of the higher harmonics, so that they didn't have that extra something. Can't put my finger on it, I'm not really an expert..
Anyways, many bass players are now also distinct from low synths in a lot of 70s stuff, that might be less than adequately mastered. Heard new sounds from this Italian prog band 'Area', where the guitar and synth were occasionally blended as one instrument. Back to the 272 and they did blend together and were much more difficult to pin point or tab.  
 
Of course this level of musical (and other) detail is exceptional for a sound engineer, but they're quite excellent for a musician or a music lover as well. At least I think so... The somewhat bright nature has grown on me and is less annoying, but still a turn off on some recordings. Mid-range stays intact though and brass comes out pure. I think it's a relatively sharp peak, but I'm not sure.
 
Hope this helps. 

 

[electropop]

Putting some Debussy pieces on to check piano and classical. 

 

[davebot]

Quote:

The somewhat bright nature has grown on me and is less annoying, but still a turn off on some recordings. Mid-range stays intact though and brass comes out pure. I think it's a relatively sharp peak, but I'm not sure.
 
Hope this helps. 

electropop!  This helps a lot.  Thank you.
 
The thing that worries me is that you found the somewhat bright nature annoying at all.  But I wonder: could this be a property of the recording?  We know that some recordings have annoying treble -- it's in the recording.  A headphone that faithfully reproduces this aspect of a recording is simply doing its job, I think.

 

[electropop]

That's true as well. I think it's natural in the sense that if you're actually listening to a band live (acoustic), the hi-hat and other cymbals tend to mask many other instruments and are relatively hot. These frequencies are definitely reduced in recordings. But on the other hand, with the LCD-2 for instance, I simply can't hear certain pieces of information. I don't know whether the information I hear on the 8400 up there is due to an unnatural boost and it's something I'm not supposed to hear, but it's a nice bonus. 
 
The K272 are great. Now that I put them on, the high frequency percussion notes are a bit grainy and unclear compared to the 8400. Ian Carr's trumpet is quite well presented though. Bass is clear, but has more texture with the 8400. Overall, the K272's are a bit smoother and even. Now that I'm comparing the two, the 8400 don't actually sound that much brighter to the K272. Listening to Nucleus' first album. Nice oboe solos I think I'm starting to believe in burn in, since the difference is not as drastic between the two as it was with my initial musings with the 8400. 
 
Though the 8400 extract certain information much better, I don't know which one I'd pick for purely trumpet or classical. Both are absolutely great. Put on HD25's on and they can't really hold off at all against either of these... However, I think that the 8400 has more accurate timbre, in that instruments sound more real. The 272, when comparing, have a should I say, more hollow sound (as an extreme: moving from bose to a old cassette radio). When it comes to distinguishing notes though, both prevail. Listening to Area again, (gosh I love Italian prog) and the 8400 makes everything better distinguished. 
 
Couldn't really tell, when listening to just piano. They had a different flavor, but a much slighter than with more complex music. I'm not that familiar with the recordings to tell which is closer to the real thing...
 
Ugh, maybe you should try both. From the many I've listened though, these two are easily my top picks from similar headphones. Receiving the FA-003 on monday or tuesday. Had to try them from all the rave they're getting. No one has commented on their ability to distinguish notes and I don't know how musical (as in how I see it) they are yet. Will post something once I've had a bit of time with them.

 

[davebot]

Thanks again.  I appreciate all your investigation and your willingness to share!  The Fischer is the other wild card for me.  I've read some glowing reviews, but how much of that is the "flavor of the month" syndrome?  

 

[electropop]

No problem. I'm sure the Fischers are proper headphones, but in the end it all comes down to what the individual wants to hear. For a musician as yourself, in my opinion it narrows the field quite much and this is often not the right place to ask for guidance. I'm quite the amateur myself relatively speaking 

 

 

[electropop]

The FA-003 just arrived... From a quick listen, the KNS8400 are clearly better. Everything is there without having to pinch your ears to hear. More accurate and faster at least. Have not formed an opinion yet on their tonal nature; nothing against it at least. Peter Erskine's drumming, especially those fast doubles he does with the edge of the hihat on Reza (Jaco Pastorius, 'The Birthday Concert'), was not clear on the FA-003. Dynamics seem to be lacking against the 8400 as well. Could hear a clear rise in volume with a certain tom on that song but not with the FA-003. 
Heh, a bit of nitpicking. But I'll give them a bit more time and see in the end.. So far I think the 8400 would've deserved more to be the FOTM. May the better stand against the corrosion of time.

 

[davebot]

I asked HeadRoom for their take on the AKG vs. KRK question.  Jorge had some interesting thoughts.  He didn't think of the KNS8400 as overly bright, but as more of an 'up-front', lively tonal presentation, compared to the expansive, deeply layered soundstage and slightly more 'laid-back' presentation of the AKG K272HD.  He thought the AKG had wider imaging, which might be an advantage for classical and symphonic styles.  But he was also impressed by the resolution power of the KRK.
 
Are you still grooving to the KNS8400?
 
Best,
 
David
 

 

[electropop]

I still am. I can't comment on the soundstage issue or positioning. Headphones all do this differently but not correctly, nor does it actually matter to me. The KRK made some instruments that were close to each other in tone (guitar and synth from a certain recording comes to mind) better distinct. The synth came from the left channel completely and the guitar was closer to the center. Tried this with the 272 and it wasn't so clear. Both are more laid-back. I don't know what "lively tonal presentation" means... The KRK, however, sound tonally more coherent to me, but not as smooth across the FR still. 

 

[davebot]

I think some people might describe the Beyerdynamic DT 990 as having a lively, up-front presentation.  I've never thought My DT990 was too bright or analytical.  I wonder if the KNS 8400 is similar?
 
 

 

[electropop]

I think they're more laid back... It's enjoyable, but you can pick everything out. What I meant was, that I don't know what that has to do with tonality. "Liveliness", or how many see it, I think has to do with boosting certain frequencies. Then again, perhaps not.. I don't have much experience with Beyers. I dislike quite many of them; actually all to which I've listened. Many of them have that trademark-like monotonic, but punchy, bass, which might add to the illusion of liveliness. I dunno... I wouldn't say these are quite the same though. But this is quite moot, since I have either heard the 990 a very long time ago, so that I don't remember, or not at all.