Aikido HV power supply PCBs
Jan 25, 2007 at 2:01 AM Post #16 of 52
Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewFischer /img/forum/go_quote.gif
That's not quite true. Since 4 tube heaters are a more or less constant load, an unregulated DC supply will work.
With no load, the output will be about 1.414*6.3 - voltage drop across the diodes. Somewhere around 8VDC.



Yup, I've done the math a ton of times, but in practice it never works. If you don't insist on the regulator, use super low dropout diodes, and don't mind significant ripple, you might pull it off. I did it with a CRC filter with each C = 22000uF and the R = 0R39, and just got enough voltage, and that was to only run one heater. Adding 3 more drops it more, and increases ripple.

Quote:

Unless im mistaken, i believe that math is wrong. To calculate the RMS voltage (that is, the DC voltage youre going to get off of an AC line) you divide the peak voltage (in this case, 6.3v) by the square root of 2, not multiply it.


No, you use your method when you are using a ful wave rectifier, but here we are using a bridge. Now get back to work.
 
Jan 25, 2007 at 3:19 AM Post #17 of 52
Thanks for your responses, everyone. Even the "off-topic" posts are very informative. Personally, I'd been planning to use a tread for the heaters, but had not put much thought or research into it.

changes:
-traces wider all around.
-ground isolation increased
-parts shifted around
-redid traces on reg board

There's a lot of unused room on the PS board. I can probably shift some more stuff around and add in a "V1/4".


[size=small]ps:[/size]

schematic is unchanged.
board:
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/1...brdrev29ua.png

[size=small]reg:[/size]

schematic:
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/4...opsrev25li.png (much prettier, also, actually correct)
board:
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/2...brdrev27wn.png

I'd be glad to offer up the .brd/.sch files; but my server is currently out-of-commision. Whomever's interested, send me a PM.
 
Jan 25, 2007 at 2:18 PM Post #18 of 52
The rectifier board is looking better.

Can you move the trace connecting C5,L1,D5 from the ground plane to the other side of the board?
Will C1 to C4 fit? Anywhere the silkscreen overlaps is a somewhere you'd better get out the calipers.
Adding the voltage divider for the filaments is a great idea.
Eventually you should move around the part names so they don't overlap. That can wait until you've got the parts placement complete. Doesn't matter at all if you get the boards made without silk screen.


Regulator schematic looks a lot better.

As you most likely already figured out, the resistors dissipate a fair amount of power. R3 and R4 are going to run warm at 1.45W each. I haven't looked at anything else, but plan for heat. You may need to increase spacing.

Move the trace that goes under C9 closer to the center of the cap. It gets close to a pad when it doesn't need to. I see a better alternate route. Maybe the autorouter didn't.

Move the R2-T2 trace. It is close to pads on T1.

C8 and C9 might be too close. Not sure.


That's all I see in a quick look. I haven't checked the boards against the schematic. Eagle should catch those errors. I also haven't checked any of the parts. For example I have no idea if the transistor pinouts are correct or not


And check your PM. I'll take you up on the files. I can host them if you'd like.


Andrew
 
Jan 25, 2007 at 8:53 PM Post #19 of 52
I just realized that 14.5K 2W or 3W resistor is going to be hard to find. Did you find a source? Plan to use 15K instead?

I wonder if the original used 2 or 3 resistors in parallel or if 14.5K is there to make all the numbers come out even. Maybe the real device used 15K and everything was a little off???
 
Jan 25, 2007 at 10:33 PM Post #20 of 52
It changes with whatever voltage you use, if I'm reading it correctly. And I'm not really planning to build it to 300V, maybe somewhere closer to 200. I'm actually multitasking b/t playing a game and reading head-fi now, so I'm not positive about this, but the caption below the schematic on TCJ says it sets the output voltage. The way I'm almost sure it works is

(((desired output voltage * 100) - 1000) / 2)

to get what is R2 and R3 on the board.

so, for 300 V (as in the TCJ schematic)

30000 - 1000 / 2 = 14500

it's ugly, but it works.

edit:
for my 200 V:
20000 - 1000 =19000, /2 is 9.5K

and, since, according to broskie, if output voltage is > 300, the second PNP can be omitted, and the two resistors replaced with just one. Might make parts selection a lot easier.
 
Jan 26, 2007 at 6:24 PM Post #22 of 52
New stuff happened.

[size=small]ps:[/size]
schematic:
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/7...opsrev3zz8.png
board:
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/6...brdrev3qi7.png

[size=small]reg:[/size]
schematic:
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/2...regrev3du5.png
board:
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/3...brdrev3yv1.png

changes:
-resistors moved around to provide better cooling.
-error in reg schematic fixed, and added to board.
-added the resistor divider to the ps board.

Not sure if I should move the traces (the new ones) away from the top, or away from the diode.

Also, in regards to setting output voltage, I think you can adjust D3 in order to change the reference voltage. That changes the voltage going through R1, which changes the current going through R2 and R3, whose value can then be potentially changed to more easily obtainable values. I'm not knowlegeable to know whether changing the reference voltage will have any other effects however.
 
Jan 29, 2007 at 6:34 PM Post #23 of 52
Here is a possible filament supply. I'll include my thoughts later today when I've got some time.

The unregulated borrows heavily from the STEPS. D5 and D6 are optional and often not needed. The regulator is 95% from an example in the National datasheet for the LM 338.

attachment.php



This supply is called the MEPS. That's the exclamation a Conehead makes on realizing a STEPS provides insufficient power.
 
Jan 29, 2007 at 10:07 PM Post #24 of 52
Some thoughts on a filament power supply for the Aikido.

AC filament power is worth considering. Indirectly heated tubes don't pick up too much noise from the heaters. I'll be using AC heaters when I first power up my Aikido boards.

DC will reduce noise. My initial idea was to use a STEPS board to provide unregulated power around 14 V. I'd leave out the regulator. A series connected diode string would cut the voltage down to something very close to 12.6VDC. If I ever switched to 6 volt tubes, I'd just swap the primary to series connection, cutting the output voltage in half. Just one problem. The largest transformer that will fit on a STEPS is 25VA. At typical tube complement needs just over 30W.

I decided to step-up the STEPS and the MEPS was born.

The unregulated power is derived from Tangent. Matching Vunreg to the output is critical at the higher currents. If Vunreg is too high, we will dissipate too much power in the regulator. If Vunreg is too low the regulator will drop out. There needs to be a margin to allow for line voltage fluctuation. I want to allow for post construction Vunreg adjustments without having to swap transformers. The Aikido will work with a wide range of tubes. The filament supply should support that with a minimum of work.

MEPS keeps the original over spec'd line filter. The transformer is an Amveco 35 or 50VA unit. I plan to have jumpers for both the primary and secondaries, allowing for the maximum possible output choices from a single transformer.

Rectifier diodes can be any TO-220 units that can handle the current and power. Two or three optional series diodes follow the bridge. You would use these when needed to drop the unregulated voltage a little. I can see needed this when swapping to tubes that use less power. With 6Volt tubes, these diodes could dissipate a few watts, so I will leave room for heat sinks.

I have several ideas for the regulator. The above schematic is idea #1.

An LM317T is limited to 1A. That isn't going to work. Moving up to the LM338 gets us 5A. That is enough for 12V tubes but not 6. Power dissipation is a problem. The dropout voltage is around 2.5V. To get a safe margin, Vunreg is going to have to be 3 to 6V higher than the output.
6V*2.4A = 12.8W
12.8*4 = 51C
That is with a perfect heat sink! I decided to split the heat across two LM338s. The increase in cost isn't much. You can't just put two 3 pin regulators in parallel. If you do that, one ends up getting all of the load, then goes into thermal or current limit. This regulator circuit, updated from the LM338 data sheet, uses the two .1 ohm resistors to sense the current going two the two regulators. The op-amp adjusts the top regulator to keep the load balanced.

National has an ancient application note, LB-51, that describes an alternative way to do this. It is worth a read.

This will work for 12V tubes. 6V tubes draw twice the current and will dissipate twice the power in the regulator. With a regular NPN linear regulator, the amount of power dumped into the regulator is nearly as much as what goes into the tubes. That's not a good design.

That leads us to idea #2.

A LDO regulator, like an LM1084 has a 1.5V drop out. Some of the LT parts from Linear are 1V. Thats much better but we need to keep the input voltage less than 3V over Vout. One way to do this is with a switcher feeding a linear regulator. Since there are some interesting 6V tube choices, I'll draw up a #2 MEPS over the next few days.

Comments are welcome.

Andrew
 
Jan 30, 2007 at 1:56 AM Post #25 of 52
I changed the HV rectifier to use tubes instead of silicon. (thanks to rsabo for the eagle files!)

attachment.php


This circuit uses a pair of 6X4 tubes in a full wave rectifier. A single 6X4 is good for about 70mA@300V output from a capacitor input filter. Rather than figure out if that is enough power for every possible Aikido configuration, I included the option to parallel two 6X4 tubes. If you don't need it, don't put one in the socket.

Why not use a larger capacity tube like an 6CA4/EZ81? Most of them are getting expensive. The EZ81 is $12-$20.

6X4s are cheap. $4.00 last time I checked. A 6X4 is small. I might be able to get this to fit in the same space as the solid state board.

I don't claim or expect this to have any sonic advantage. A tube rectifier will soft start. No need for a time delay. 6X4s are so cheap that it doesn't change the cost too much. The larger choke might be the bigger hit.
 
Jan 30, 2007 at 11:34 AM Post #26 of 52
Cool
icon10.gif


Some possible errors that I saw on the MEPS schematic:
-Pin 1 on R7 isn't connected to anything. Unless I've misunderstood how trimpots work, it needs to connect to ground.
-There's no hole/wirepad for B+/4.

A twelve-volt supply will work with 6V tubes, using jumpers J1 & J4. Not sure whether this would double the current capacity, however.

It also looks kind of like A1 on V2 in the tube rectifier is shorted to ~.
 
Jan 30, 2007 at 1:47 PM Post #27 of 52
Quote:

Originally Posted by rsabo /img/forum/go_quote.gif
-Pin 1 on R7 isn't connected to anything. Unless I've misunderstood how trimpots work, it needs to connect to ground.


A potentiometer is a resistor with a sliding tap. With the knob fixed somewhere it can be modeled as two resistors.
attachment.php



Measure the resistance from pin 3 to ground. It will be R1. If you disconnect pin 1 from ground, the resistance at pin 3 is still R1. Doesn't matter if pin 1 is grounded or not. When I lay out the board, I will likely end up grounding pin 1. I've left it open for now.


Quote:

There's no hole/wirepad for B+/4.
It also looks kind of like A1 on V2 in the tube rectifier is shorted to ~.


I'll fix those. My CVS server died last night. Its back up, but I don't have access to the files right now.



Quote:

A twelve-volt supply will work with 6V tubes, using jumpers J1 & J4. Not sure whether this would double the current capacity, however.


I'd forgotten the Aikido boards will let you put the filaments in series. Putting the tubes in series cuts the current in half. We won't need the other design. The MEPS will work.
There is still the question of using a switcher as a pre-regulator. The end result would be more efficient. If I find some time I'll play around with a design.

Layout is next.
 
Jan 31, 2007 at 4:54 AM Post #28 of 52
Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewFischer /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Why not use a larger capacity tube like an 6CA4/EZ81? Most of them are getting expensive. The EZ81 is $12-$20.

6X4s are cheap. $4.00 last time I checked. A 6X4 is small. I might be able to get this to fit in the same space as the solid state board.



So you are going to use 2 $4 tubes + 2 hard to find 7 pin sockets instead of one $12 tube and one easy to find socket? So, all in all, you might save $4, though there is the additional cost of slightly more board space and probably more shipping from multiple vendors.

Plus, and most importantly, this is a bad idea as the tubes will likely be unbalanced which means all the current being drawn from one instead of the other which will damage the one and ignore the other. Just use an appropriate rectifier and be done with it. NOS EZ80's are $10 and chinese GZ34's are $12 at AES.

Also, even if you do insist on DC filaments, all of the accoutrement is wasted time and money. A simply regulator is more than enough as there is almost no noise passed from heater to tube, especially in an amp that uses lowish mu tubes and only has mu/2 gain.

Quote:

A potentiometer is a resistor with a sliding tap. With the knob fixed somewhere it can be modeled as two resistors.


But it is standard safety precaution to connect both ends of the pot and the tap to one of them. This way, if something goes wrong with the pot while you are adjusting it (and this is common as these things are cheap and not built for a lot of adjustment) you still have some resistance.
 
Jan 31, 2007 at 3:08 PM Post #29 of 52
I had planned to use a single 6X4. Antique Electronics Supply sells the tubes for $4.00 and 7 pin sockets for $0.95. I haven't figured the total power needed yet and wasn't sure if the 70mA you can get from a 6X4 would be enough.

However you are right about balance.

Quote:

Just use an appropriate rectifier and be done with it.


Ok. I'll figure out how much power I need and then come back to this.



Quote:

A simply regulator is more than enough as there is almost no noise passed from heater to tube,


I know that if you get the filament bias right, almost nothing gets passed into the signal. But what else am I supposed to do in my spare time
smily_headphones1.gif



The caps around the rectifiers are not required. But they are penny parts.


I could leave the input filter off, but I'd rather build a board that can have them. I may end up using this for something other than a filament supply. Besides I already have the parts on hand.

This is about as simple a linear regulator as I could come up with. Maybe I made a math error, but it looks to me like a single LM338 is going to overheat.

LM338Ts are $2.50 each from Digikey. The LF 356 is $1.10. The heatsink is $1.28.

A single LDO could work but would require careful parts selection.

I've got a few LM2678Ts sitting around. I've always wanted to learn how to lay out a simple switcher. Maybe I'll play with that tonight...
 
Jan 31, 2007 at 4:22 PM Post #30 of 52
I've redrawn the unregulated HV schematic with a single tube.
At the moment it has a 6V4/EZ80. The 6CA4/EZ81 is the same pin out. I suppose you could use the same PC board for a higher current supply.

I haven't ruled out using a single 6X4 or 12X4. Its a lot cheaper and smaller, I just need to figure out if it will provide enough power.

Here are some possible rectifier choices, the approximate max output current, the maximum value for C5 and where I got the numbers from.
6X4 70mA 10µF RCA manual
6V4 90mA 50µF http://www.drtube.com/datasheets/ez81-philips1970.pdf
6CA4 150mA 50µF RCA manual

attachment.php
 

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