[bloom691]

Maybe a common story, but... once upon a time I auditioned a high-end audio system. This was about 30 years ago, and its cost today would probably be in the $10k range. I was blown away by the sound it produced and how it transformed my test-CD into something new and amazing, letting me hear things I had never heard. Amazing... other than the fact I could not afford to buy it!

Now 30-years on, I am 50 years old. Did a hearing test recently, and I can hear up to ~15kHz still which I am happy with at my age! And I decided now I have a little more money, maybe I should buy that dream-system? Only times have changed so much.... I don't really have time to just sit-down and enjoy music in front of an audio system. I am in various rooms in the house, in-front of the computer, working at my desk, or maybe traveling on business. So I thought why not invest in some really good headphones? Maybe I can get the sound from 30-years ago right in my ears. Music-Wise, I enjoy most genre's from 80's pop to modern dance/dubstep and everything in-between.

So, I have a few IEM and over-ear headphones. Nothing super-fancy - all in the $50-$200 range. So I listened to them all with my iPhone, and the sound was definitely lacking. So I bought a DragonFly Red DAC. Sadly to say, I can't really hear any improvement with the DAC attached to my iPhone or my Macbook. I have tried a number of sources: Apple Music, Spotify (set to maximum quality), Tidal (both HiFi setting and their Masters Tracks) and VOX (including upsampling Spotify Tracks to 96kHz, the maximum the DragonFly can process). And to be honest I have a hard time differentiating any of the sources. Changing bit-rates makes the LED on the DragonFly change color, so I know I am getting data in different formats. But it just all sounds "okay".

My question now is given the fact I can't tell much difference, will I appreciate spending >$1K on a set of amazing headphones? Will it give me back what I think is missing, or will it still just sound "okay"? I live in Greensboro, NC, and there are no stores nearby where I can audition anything, making this selection even harder.

Decisions Decisions! Can anyone give me some good advice? I need some guidance!

 

[buke9]

Cheaper headphones aren’t going to sound that much different with better sources most of the time.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

So, I have a few IEM and over-ear headphones. Nothing super-fancy - all in the $50-$200 range. So I listened to them all with my iPhone, and the sound was definitely lacking. So I bought a DragonFly Red DAC. Sadly to say, I can't really hear any improvement with the DAC attached to my iPhone or my Macbook. I have tried a number of sources: Apple Music, Spotify (set to maximum quality), Tidal (both HiFi setting and their Masters Tracks) and VOX (including upsampling Spotify Tracks to 96kHz, the maximum the DragonFly can process). And to be honest I have a hard time differentiating any of the sources. Changing bit-rates makes the LED on the DragonFly change color, so I know I am getting data in different formats. But it just all sounds "okay".

There are a number of reasons why you can't hear a difference and we'd have to know what headphones those are to make a better guess as to why that is relative to how you can tell how good that old speaker system was.

First, those headphones you have. If they're not older reference headphones that are selling for less now if they're still in production (ex. HD600 and HD58X) or what would have counted for reference back when headphones like the AKG K1000 with the SAC amplifier was practically nearly as rare as the Sennheiser Orpheus (and no, $15,000 in 1990 does not translate to $50,000 for the current Orpheus using only general inflation rate; tiers in headphones built up in the last ten years), chances are what you have are made for a more general market. That means their sensitivity is high enough that given the relatively high power, relatively low distortion output on a Macbook, they won't even need as much power as a separate amp unless you like listening a little louder if for just a few select songs depending on your mood.

And even on long-running reference headphones like the HD600, with a 300ohm impedance, even the relatively high output impedance on Macbooks (only in comparison to hifi headphone amps; compared to other general purpose devices, hell a Macbook will be better than some Snapdragon Samsungs) wouldn't matter at all. If you have enough ambient noise the minute EQ effect on the bass regardless of which way it goes wouldn't be audible.

If anything, you might hear any difference on a different amp than the Dragonfly (which is still USB-powered and isn't exactly running with large power caps, even if it can spit out 1000mW) if one of those headphones happens to be an AKG K7xx series headphone since it's relatively harder to drive. The sensitivity is relatively low at 93dB/1mW, the K701 and to a lesser extent the K702 needs to be cranked up a fair bit to bring the low end out, and generally requires more current performance...assuming you do crank it up a bit to begin with.

Second, depending on the response of the headphones you have, the response can be so bad overall that the Macbook would have to have its output impedance alter it enough to one direction that it sounds like a stark contrast to the Dragonfly. This isn't absolutely a bad thing though - if the bass is very loud on such headphones for example then you don't crank it up high enough for the amp to distort trying to make the driver move back and forth.

And then there's your music. If your music doesn't have enough bass in it (not even, say, AC/DC's hard hitting bass kicks, let alone very fast double pedal bass on Dream Theater etc) then there's nothing that will immediately show low damping factor or clipping/distortion off the Macbook having lower power or high output impedance struggling to supply current or control the driver properly.

Your IEMs also require less power since apart from Etymotic they tend to be at least 100dB/1mW, and seal your ear canals as well, so you really have to use the crappiest smartphones with too little power and gain or the worst implementations of otherwise acceptable hardware (like my Snapdragon SGS3 with craptastic bass bloat and too high gain that two clicks from silence is "almost there" and the third click is already "OHMYGODTURNITDOWN!!!" on my 120dB/1mW IEM) to make it distort. Or a dynamic driver IEM with very low impedance (on the Macbook; the SGS3 managed to screw up a 32ohm IEM, which is high considering other IEMs at 16ohms or lower), and you might not even have any with a dynamic driver thanks to the prevalence of BA drivers.

My question now is given the fact I can't tell much difference, will I appreciate spending >$1K on a set of amazing headphones? Will it give me back what I think is missing, or will it still just sound "okay"? I live in Greensboro, NC, and there are no stores nearby where I can audition anything, making this selection even harder.

Decisions Decisions! Can anyone give me some good advice? I need some guidance!

Headphones, maybe, if the response is drastically different. Like if you're comparing a Grado SR80e to, say, an Audeze LCD-2C. And more hi-fi headphones tend to make compromises to sensitivity vs Grados or headphones marketed to the general public (not as much with newer designs, with the 22ohm HE400S having 98dB/1mW on par with the HD650 and a hair better than the HD600), so at the very least the Macbook could potentially run out of steam (if you need to crank it up), and maybe even the Dragonfly (if you need to crank it up, or you compare that to say the HEED CanAmp or Burson Soloist on the K70x).

In the end though we can only guess, we can't make any guarantees, since there's the question of what you can perceive (and on the flipside, some who can perceive differences with cables made of the same metal wouldn't know one from another on a blind test). I know a guy who can tune a guitar by ear but can't tell the differnece between my HD600 and his Apple earbuds, mostly likely thanks to the 3500hz peak on the Sennheiser causing auditory masking on the other frequencies it is doing better at. And then there's personal preference. Even if you do hear a difference, would you like it? The Aurisonics ASG-1 for example has a boosted low end for vocalists to hear the beat and get their cue right or for drummers to hear themselves playing with the rest of the band (without ambient noise like the audience or acoustic reflections in a bad indoor venue), but a friend who was our drummer when we were in a band together still prefers Westones (and only the dual drivers, which coincidentally are my value for money preference for the way the guitars and vocals sound as well).

 

[Monsterzero]

My question now is given the fact I can't tell much difference, will I appreciate spending >$1K on a set of amazing headphones? Will it give me back what I think is missing, or will it still just sound "okay"? I live in Greensboro, NC, and there are no stores nearby where I can audition anything, making this selection even harder.

First off, if you expect headphones to be able to reproduce the soundstage of well placed,high $ speakers you will be disappointed. Secondly if you are expecting headphones to give you the chest cavity filling rumble of a speaker system with a 1000w sub woofer,again,you will be disappointed.
Headphones are very different from speakers,and vice/versa.

Sadly 1k isnt a whole lot for a headphone system. To get that spine chilling sound you experienced years ago from speakers one needs to realize that using an Iphone as a source and a Dragonfly as an amp/DAC is as pretty much an entry level setup as possible.

To truly begin to hear huge differences in sound quality not only do you need a good headphone,but also a dedicated amp and DAC as well,which depending upon your choices,can well exceed $1k.

To offer suggestions in the $1k price range we need to know where you will be using these headphones. Will it be strictly at home? On the go? Combo of both?

You might want to look here to see if there are any local Head-Fi meets coming up in your area. Find a meet,go listen to set ups and then decide if its something you want to dive into.

https://www.head-fi.org/forums/local-regional-head-fi-meets-parties-get-togethers.24/

 

[bloom691]

Thanks for the feedback so far.

First, those headphones you have.

The headphones I have tried right now: Audio Technical's ATH-MT50 (cost about $100, 5 years ago), Bose QC20 IEM (with noise cancellation) and a low-cost Klipsch in-ear (I don't have the model but they are ~6 years old and cost ~$50). I will also vary-up my music selection and try some stronger bass-line tunes to see if I can detect some more differences.

First off, if you expect headphones to be able to reproduce the soundstage of well placed,high $ speakers you will be disappointed

Got it - I hopefully know what to expect. The $1K target was my starting point. I do want something mobile and portable, as I do split listening between different locations. Basically, what do I need to reach my expectations? Your description of "spine chilling" is a good one! I still really need to use my iPhone as the source. With the right DAC/AMP/Headphone combo, will I get what I am looking for? Even if money is not an obstacle?

Finally - Good input: I will look into the Head-Fi meet to see if there is anything coming close to where I am.

 

[buke9]

Totally agree on finding a meet.
Are these going to used in public or just something transportable?

 

[Monsterzero]

Personally I'd invest in something like the Chord Mojo,which can be had used for around 300.00,and then add a Mr.Speakers Aeon Flow closed. That will bring you in at right around 1k.
Or if you listen at home quite a bit,something like the Audio GD R2R-11 amp/DAC combo has a nice warm analog-like sound to it. Pair that up with a HD6xx and you will have a nice home set-up for around 500.00,but those cant be used in public.

I see you found the N.C. 2019 meet thread already. Army Firedawg and Mshenay know their stuff and can help nudge you in the right direction.

If cash is no object I'd go for:

STAX 007 earspeaker
Blue Hawaii SE amp
Denafrips Terminator DAC.

Do not pass go,go straight to end game for around 15k

 

[Cruelhand Luke]

Cheaper headphones aren’t going to sound that much different with better sources most of the time.

I'm not sure why people make inaccurate, discouraging, blanket statements like this. If cheaper headphones most of the time don't show improvement with better sources... are ALL the people who find that their headphones do improve with a better source merely victims of placebo?
For example, all the headphones I have are in the $300- $50 range and all of them show improvement when I switch from my phone (which actually has a good dac/amp) to my Magni 3....in fact, the headphones that show the least improvement are my 'best' headphones (Fidelio L2) because they are very low impedance and are very efficient.
To the OP, I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but I would focus my attention first on what type of sound signature I prefer and what my use case for them will be. Once you know how you want them to sound, and where you will be using them, you can then better narrow down your choices.
You can get something that will sound great for less than a $1000, ignore anyone who would try to tell you otherwise, they lack imagination.
I would focus on a nice powerful portable amp that can be used at home as well, and 2 sets of headphones:
1) an open backed, comfortable set with a somewhat reference/accurate sound signature for more relaxed, longer listening sessions at home.
2) a closed back, portable/durable set with a more 'fun' sound signature, a little bit V shaped.
For example, someone mentioned a used Chord Mojo for $300 and the Massdrop HD6xx....now add a Bowers and Wilkins P7 and you are all set for less than $1,000. I'm sorry, but anyone who tries to tell you that you aren't going to notice a BIG difference in sound quality between that set-up and what you currently have, they're nuts.

 

[buke9]

I'm not sure why people make inaccurate, discouraging, blanket statements like this. If cheaper headphones most of the time don't show improvement with better sources... are ALL the people who find that their headphones do improve with a better source merely victims of placebo?
For example, all the headphones I have are in the $300- $50 range and all of them show improvement when I switch from my phone (which actually has a good dac/amp) to my Magni 3....in fact, the headphones that show the least improvement are my 'best' headphones (Fidelio L2) because they are very low impedance and are very efficient.
To the OP, I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but I would focus my attention first on what type of sound signature I prefer and what my use case for them will be. Once you know how you want them to sound, and where you will be using them, you can then better narrow down your choices.
You can get something that will sound great for less than a $1000, ignore anyone who would try to tell you otherwise, they lack imagination.
I would focus on a nice powerful portable amp that can be used at home as well, and 2 sets of headphones:
1) an open backed, comfortable set with a somewhat reference/accurate sound signature for more relaxed, longer listening sessions at home.
2) a closed back, portable/durable set with a more 'fun' sound signature, a little bit V shaped.
For example, someone mentioned a used Chord Mojo for $300 and the Massdrop HD6xx....now add a Bowers and Wilkins P7 and you are all set for less than $1,000. I'm sorry, but anyone who tries to tell you that you aren't going to notice a BIG difference in sound quality between that set-up and what you currently have, they're nuts.

Wasn’t a blanket statement as I said most of the time. I was at work and didn’t have time for a better response should have said it more diplomatically I agree. What I had in mind was that even better sources you can’t expect a HD-280 Pro to sound like the HD-800’s. That said I would go for better headphones first and then work on a better source.

 

[SonyFan121]

Thanks for the feedback so far.

The headphones I have tried right now: Audio Technical's ATH-MT50 (cost about $100, 5 years ago), Bose QC20 IEM (with noise cancellation) and a low-cost Klipsch in-ear (I don't have the model but they are ~6 years old and cost ~$50). I will also vary-up my music selection and try some stronger bass-line tunes to see if I can detect some more differences.

If those are the headphones/earphone you have been used to for a while now, then you will probably be very impressed with a headphone at $500 - $800, never mind over $1k, lol.
I know that when I was a teen, when I made the jump from $30 walmart headphones to $700 Denon AH-D5000's in 2008, It was overwhelming. I quickly got used to it, but I still haven't found a headphone that I like better than the AH-D5000.

 

[surfgeorge]

Personally I'd invest in something like the Chord Mojo,which can be had used for around 300.00,and then add a Mr.Speakers Aeon Flow closed. That will bring you in at right around 1k.

Let me first say that I am in a very similar situation as @bloom691 except that I bought that Stereo system 20 years ago.
I also only got into the idea of a portable Hifi system a little more than a year ago, which for me was a rather short and straight path to the Mojo, not that many steps in between. Still, I spent many maybe €500 on components that I don't use any more...
The Mojo was such a revelation when connected to my Stereo system that I kicked out the €3000 Stereo system DAC (from 20 yrs ago....) and replaced it with a €600 used Chord 2Qute, that uses a similar DAC technology as the Mojo.
This video explains the technology of the CHORD DAC and yes, it works.


I ended up with this:


Source: HiBy R3
DAC/Amp: Chord Mojo
Headphones: Audioquest NightOwl

The Mr.Speakers AEON closed would have been my favorite (and slightly more portable) but were out of my budget.
The system as shown cost me excatly €1000

Compared to my Stereo system:
This setup blew away the Stereo system sound in soundstage and separation, and improved clarity and detail while being very smooth and musical, not analytical at all. When I added the CHORD DAC to the Stereo, all these attributes also showed in the SQ of the stereo system. I really hadn't realized how good my amp and speakers really are.

Would I do it again?
CHORD MOJO: big fat YES! That piece is going to stay with me!
HiBy R3: Maybe - it matches the Mojo very well but has some quirks. Phone with Tidal is also a good source. Chord Poly would be the luxury solution, but expensive...
NightOwl: Maybe - I love the sound, they really pull me into the music and let me just enjoy, and they are very cheap now, 50% below MRSP. But they are dark, and details are there but a bit veiled, the AEON should be much better in that aspect.

 

[bloom691]

Let me first say that I am in a very similar situation as @bloom691 except that I bought that Stereo system 20 years ago.

I wish I had too all that time ago!

More good advice from everyone... thank you. Let me mention a couple more things...

What I remember from ~30 years ago was listening to a track (various 80/90's pop) that I know very well, and it was the "gaps" in the music that I really noticed as most striking. The silence in those fractions of a second which previously had been filled with hiss (I assume!). That, and the clarity and overall presence of the music and vocal. Soundstage was good - but I realize getting that with headphones/IEM is not going to be the same. Right now, in my "highest quality" setting on my iPhone, music just seems a little muddled and artificial, definitely lacking in clarity with hints of clipping or some form of distortion - almost "metallic" if that makes sense. Maybe its just a little too much treble for my taste? I only listen at moderate volumes - maybe 50-80% on the volume-dial. Cranking it up does not seem to make it better or worse.

Based on not having listened to any of these, my short-list of possible headphones (in no particular order) are:

• Shure SE846 IEM - I like the technology in having multiple drivers and acoustic waveguides, even though I don't really understand how they work (FYI - I am an RF Design Engineer)
• Audeze iSine20 IEM - Again, the planar technology looks very clever and reviews seem fantastic despite them being bulky
• Audeze LCD (Maybe -2, maybe -X, even -4 are not out the question if I knew they would give me everything I would ever want!) - Reviews on any of these seem to have such high ratings I can't ignore them
• Sennheiser HD 800 - Not as "techy" maybe, but reviews are great

Personal preference: I do like the feel and isolation of IEM, but if over-ear (open or closed-back) give me THAT much more fidelity then I am fine with going that direction. I don't mind upgrading to something like a Chord Mojo, but I want the biggest bang-for-the-buck first, which I assume means headphones first, DAC/Amp later (assuming I have enough basic drive-power with my Dragonfly Red).

 

[ProtegeManiac]

The headphones I have tried right now: Audio Technical's ATH-MT50 (cost about $100, 5 years ago), Bose QC20 IEM (with noise cancellation) and a low-cost Klipsch in-ear (I don't have the model but they are ~6 years old and cost ~$50). I will also vary-up my music selection and try some stronger bass-line tunes to see if I can detect some more differences.

Those are all reasonably easy to drive that the Macbook isn't going to clip nor pile on enough distortion audible to you even at loudness levels that if sustained would cause permanent hearing damage.

 

[surfgeorge]

Personal preference: I do like the feel and isolation of IEM, but if over-ear (open or closed-back) give me THAT much more fidelity then I am fine with going that direction. I don't mind upgrading to something like a Chord Mojo, but I want the biggest bang-for-the-buck first, which I assume means headphones first, DAC/Amp later (assuming I have enough basic drive-power with my Dragonfly Red).

I hear you on that "blackness" effect!
Yes, the total blackness of a really clean system is impressive, and it's not just those moments of silence, it also makes a big difference with the music, bringing out details that you didn't hear before.

A comment on bang for the buck and headphones first - I may be in the minority here, but I am a firm believer in the importance of the source.
The differences between phones are MUCH, MUCH bigger, there's no question about it. But no phone can give you the separation, soundstage and blackness if the source doesn't deliver it.
And there is something else, beyond the technicalities. When I switch between sources, I can't say any of them sounds bad, but there's something about the music when listening to the Mojo that makes it alive, that's missing with all my other (cheaper) options. Everything else feels a bit off, digital, processed, lifeless...
That said - you are right, the DragonFly Red is good already and a perfect baseline to enjoy a good headphone!

Comments to phones: SE846 were recommended to me as a much more detailed version of the dark "NightHawk/NightOwl" sound that I like, but I was not ready to spend that much money on an IEM so I haven't heard them.
Sennheiser HD800 is a High-End phone that needs a lot of power to be driven well and is analytical rather than the musical tuning of NighHawk and SE846. Great for good systems and recordings, but maybe the HD650 would be a safer choice to enjoy also the less than perfect recordings.

And I recently bought an IEM that is a great bang for the buck option, the Moondrop Kanas Pro (Aliexpress, list price $180)
It has been compared with much more expensive IEMs (>$1000) and combines very impressive extension with details, separation, smoothness and an relatively neutral presentation.
They have a little emphasis on sub bass, so they can really rumble when it's in the tracks and otherwise they are slightly warm-neutral with.

IEM vs headphone - I find the headphones more comfortable and the sound is closer to the feeling of a stereo system, IEM feels more in the head to me, even if there's still the soundstage depth and everything.
Isolation can be good or bad with either, an iSine IEM has no isolation, and a good closed HP can isolate really well.

Best bet would be to find a local HiFi dealer and listen, listen, listen

Keep us updated!

 

[Hoka Hey]

Chasing the Dragon........

I’m in a somewhat similar position. I had “that” system 20 years ago. Floor standing speakers, tubes, exotic amp and turntable. At some point, I bought an iPod, and a set of universal Ultimate Ears iems. I think the earphones were around 450.00 or so, maybe 250.00 for the IPod. I remember being absolutely stunned at how good that little portable setup sounded, at less than 10% of the cost of my home system. Time passes, the UE’s came apart, most of my home system was sold, or is in storage.........

Definitely get to a meet if you can. There’s really no way to know if a piece of equipment will work for you until you hear it. The other option is making some wise used purchases. Stick to generally well regarded equipment at prices where you will lose little money if re-sold.

Your use case scenario and preferred sound signature will be somewhat unique. How many hours a day? How portable do you need to be? Do you tolerate iem’s well?

My use case scenario seems to be indicating I need 2 distinct sources, at the least. One highly portable for on the go, and one perhaps more focused on critical listening in my recliner. There are some pieces that could probably do both, but my suspicion is that 2 setups are likely to be a better fit in the long run. So far I’ve only got the portable rig. It gets me 80% of where I want to be, which is pretty good for something that fits in my back pocket. In some ways it still doesn’t equal that old UE/IPod set, but perhaps upgrading my iem’s will get me closer...........

.........Chasing the Dragon...........

Current setup.

Sony ZX300
Campfire Audio Lyra II
Acoustune Pentacon 4.4 balanced cable