[Peterg2]

This is my third topic I have started here in just a few days but things are changing rapidly with my equipment buying situation and I appreciate the wonderful help that everybody has given me here.

Last week I initially bought the Sennheiser HD590 and just plugged it into my mediocre Pioneer Receiver VSX-D509S (a few years old). It sounded very good. And I was happy for a few days.

They I thought I should really get the HD600 and a decent entry level headphone amp and I selected the Rega Ear which normally should be connected on the tape outs of the receiver and then to the Rega Ear. So today I went in and they did not have a new HD600 in stock (just the demo) but they could order one in for me in a week. The price on the HD600 was negotiated at C$475 and C$275 for the Rega Ear - US$365 (I know far from a great price but par for Canada) and US$211 for the Rega Ear (which is decent).

However when I mentioned the HD650 the sales guy checked on it and first said he could get me one for an additional C$75 but later on said to help you I will give you a HD650 for an additional C$50.

The price for a HD650 for me would work out to C$525 or US$403 which I believe is a very good price! Correct me if I am wrong.

In any event I said I would think about it (I know I should not) and would tell him tomorrow or latest Monday morning when they do all their orders.

I anyhow came home with the demo HD600 and the Rega Ear Amp. The Rega Ear amp as I said is supposed to be connected to the tape out on my receiver.

I intend the headphones for movie and music listening on my digital cable box and CDs via my Panasonic DVD player.

Now a problem (or perhaps it is always like this).

When I hook up the Rega Ear to the tape output and listen to the digital music channels on the cable box If I am using the digital coax connector from the cable box to the receiver (no analog connectors) nothing comes out of the tape output. I have to hook up the analog outputs in the digital cable box to the analog inputs in the receiver. I do not think the digital cable box has a DAC per se but transmits the Digital Audio channels also in analog stereo (with poor fidelity).

I would assume the DVD player will be the same (it is hooked up with a toslink connector) so I will have to have analog connectors there.

Is this normal these days? If the source enters the receiver as digital is there no Digital Analog Conversion done before it is fed to the tape output?

If not, I suppose I can get another receiver but I really don't want to spend much money here either. I would like to have the receiver take all inputs, be they digital or analog and output it as analog through the Tape input.

The store where I have bought all my equipment carries as its cheapest line Denon and I know they are of good quality. Would say a Denon AVR1404 solve my problem (It will probably be only C$500 or so). Due to my environment now I will not be able to use my speakers nearly to their fullest and it really does not matter so much.

All advice most appreciated.

Peter

[Message edited for typo]

 

[Hajime]

Your CD player is what has the DAC in it. If you use the digital outs you're bypassing the DAC and sending a purely digital signal into the receiver. Unless specifically stated, your receiver doesn't have a DAC in it. You'll have to use the analog outputs from the CD player to your receiver. Most receivers to my knowlege arent' also DACs.

If I were you I'd go for the HD650, if you have the money and don't mind spending it. US $403 is a pretty decent price.

 

[Jasper994]

possibly the cheapest solution would be to leave your current setup as is and pick up a Niles AXP-1. The sources should output both digital and analog at the same time so just pick-up cables to go from the Digital TV box and DVD player into the Niles box and from the Niles box into the amp. I've got mine setup this way and it works very well.

 

[Jasper994]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hajime Your CD player is what has the DAC in it. If you use the digital outs you're bypassing the DAC and sending a purely digital signal into the receiver. Unless specifically stated, your receiver doesn't have a DAC in it. You'll have to use the analog outputs from the CD player to your receiver. Most receivers to my knowlege arent' also DACs. If I were you I'd go for the HD650, if you have the money and don't mind spending it. US $403 is a pretty decent price.

Sure they are, they have to be able to take DD, DTS and PCM on the optical or coax input and convert to analog to send the signal to the speakers.

 

[Peterg2]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasper994 possibly the cheapest solution would be to leave your current setup as is and pick up a Niles AXP-1. The sources should output both digital and analog at the same time so just pick-up cables to go from the Digital TV box and DVD player into the Niles box and from the Niles box into the amp. I've got mine setup this way and it works very well.

Thanks for the reply.

My problem is that on looking at the Niles AXP-1 it appears to just be a switching box with analog inputs.

Due to my particular situation with a new neighbour I cannot listen to music or watch a movie at a decent level of sound. I have become enamoured with the Headphones (especially the HD600 which I spent over 2 hours auditioning today). But I know I need a decent amp with it and I will be getting the HD650 if I do not just go back to the HD590 using the headphone jack.

I am probably using the digital cable box 80% of the time and I really appreciate the music on the digital audio channels. The analog stereo feed of the same music channels that they pipe at the same time is very inferior. So I really need to use the digital out of the cable box. This is imperative for me.

I am almost tempted to get the HD650 and drop the Rega Ear and purchase the Denon ADV-M71 which has Dolby Headphone. It is a unit with only 20 watts a channel (only 2 channels) but I can hook it up to my current receiver.

I would believe that since this unit has Dolby Headphone it would be far superior in terms of quality to the normal headphone jack of a a receiver or amplifier due to requiring dolby certification.

Would I be correct in my supposition?

I would then get outstanding movie audio (movies on it were superb when I listened to this unit) be it from the digital cable box or the dvd unit (although this is partially redundant with my own dvd player) and very good sounds for my CDs (via the headphone jack but disabling the Dolby Headphone).

My costs are escalating of course but I really do love the Dolby Headphone and going to the Pioneer unit from audiocubes is too late at this time (and it would not compare to the HD650 for quality).

Peter

 

[Peterg2]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hajime Your CD player is what has the DAC in it. If you use the digital outs you're bypassing the DAC and sending a purely digital signal into the receiver. Unless specifically stated, your receiver doesn't have a DAC in it. You'll have to use the analog outputs from the CD player to your receiver. Most receivers to my knowlege arent' also DACs. If I were you I'd go for the HD650, if you have the money and don't mind spending it. US $403 is a pretty decent price.

Thank you too for your reply.

My DVD player I use for CDs but it was ranked as one of the finest interlaced DVD players around with superb audio with the Burr-Brown DACs (I use a very high quality Iscan line doubler to get my progressive scan).

The problem is that my DVD and CD listening is probably just 20% of my listening and viewing and I use my Digital Cable box (very soon to be a High Definition Cable box) for movies and the 40 digital music channels they provide.

The analog music stream on the 40 music channels is of very poor quality and no matter what amp and headphone I use it cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Same with the audio on the movie channels. So I need to be able to have access to the digital stream which with my amplifier and its tape outputs I cannot use with my headphones.

Peter

 

[lini]

Peter: Your problem is difficult, indeed, because most modern home theater receivers don't offer internal da conversion for digital sources to the analogue tape loop(s). You might have a chance, though, by (ab)using the pre-outs for that purpose, if present on your receiver. Another solution would be connecting a dolby headphone device to the digital out of the receiver, as you've already mentioned. I'm not so sure, though, whether a HD 650 wouldn't be overkill for that purpose.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[Wodgy]

Quote:

Originally posted by lini Peter: Your problem is difficult, indeed, because most modern home theater receivers don't offer internal da conversion for digital sources to the analogue tape loop(s).

Really? I had no idea most didn't do this. Wow. I don't have a lot of experience with receivers, but my very low cost Sharp SD-SH111 does take a digital input and outputs analog on its tape outs.

I'd suggest buying an inexpensive DAC and hooking it up between the cable box and one of the receiver's analog inputs. You shouldn't have to pay more than $150-200 for a decent used outboard DAC that's maybe five years old. Alternatively, you could buy a small, inexpensive 2-channel receiver that does digital->analog conversion and just use it as a DAC, with analog outputs to your current receiver. The Sharp SD-SG11 is available pretty much everywhere now for $140 and would work just fine for this.

 

[Peterg2]

Liny and Wodgy,

Thanks both for your replies.

As I said above I really appreciate the HD600 after spending two hours with it A/Bing between the HD590. In a pinch I can go back to the HD590 as it makes it a hell of a lot cheaper and I can "re-acclimatise" the sound.

But I fell in love with the HD600 and I am sure the HD650.

But with my digital cable box (and very shortly my High Definition cable box) there is no way I will use the analogue outputs. The analogue streams are really bad for both movies and music. I need headphones in my current situation and I want high quality.

I am, to a certain extent, "married/bonded" to my current hifi store in that they are giving many credits on headphones etc which some do not do. I cannot just walk away.

Apart from going to the HD590 and using the headphone jack on my very mediocre Pioneer - which I do not want to do now - I want to find a solution.

Wodgy, I do appreciate very much your comment about using a low cost receiver for D/A conversion (I will not bother going the second hand route) but I am concerned with the quality in the DACs in such low priced units. I for some reason have my heart set on the HD650 and I do not want it too be compromised too much.

What I need is either a moderately priced receiver (I do not mind replacing my current receiver) or a headphone amplifier which will accept digital sources and in the case of the receiver will convert those digital sources and pipe them through my tape output.

The Pioneer SE-1000C (or similar model number) appears interesting with its dolby headphone and apparently good quality. This would connect to the optical out of my current receiver. But I do not want the headphones which apparently good are pretty heavy. I would just like the receiver which I would hook up with a 75 ohm coax cable and then plug my Sennheiser HD650 into it. But I do not see any way to just buy the amplifier by itself.

The other alternative is to purchase the Denon 2 x 20 Watt receiver ADV-M71 with a built in DVD player (I have two of them already). This can be hooked up to my sub and my receiver to create 5.1 when I want to use speakers. In the US this unit is going for the Canadian Dollar equivalent of C$750 (say US$550) but my dealer, who is competive with the HD650 has a silly price of C$1100. But I have to say that Dolby Headphone on this unit is outstanding.

I am assuming that the Dolby Headphone jack in this receiver is a lot better than the standard hookup to the amplifier speaker outputs with some resistors in series to increase the impedance. Would I be correct in assuming that the headphone jack in this would be good and a replacement for a low-end amplifier like the Rega Ear?

Any pointers would be most appreciated.

Peter

 

[Wodgy]

Quote:

Originally posted by Peterg2 Wodgy, I do appreciate very much your comment about using a low cost receiver for D/A conversion (I will not bother going the second hand route) but I am concerned with the quality in the DACs in such low priced units. I for some reason have my heart set on the HD650 and I do not want it too be compromised too much.

Good point. It's always good to be forward-looking. I will say though that I recently bought a SD-SG11 to use as a DAC at work and I am very happy with its sound quality. The SD-SG11 used to sell for more than $1000, but it has been discontinued in favor of the SD-SG40, which is why it's currently going for so cheap. (Receivers tend to go out of date so fast that old ones lose their value quickly, and the SG11 only does stereo, not multichannel which is in vogue right now.)

The SG11 does sound musical and is very listenable (and believe me, I've heard some terrible sound to compare against). However, if you want a truly awesome sound, you'll need to look towards something like the Bel Canto DAC2 or MSB Link III, which tend to run in the $1200-$1300 price range.

The thing is, if your preferred source is digital radio, it's probably slightly below CD quality, and so I question whether you'd be wise to spend this kind of money on a DAC. Personally, I'd choose an inexpensive but good sounding DAC and invest the rest of the money in the HD650s (and perhaps an aftermarket cable for the HD650s, or nice analog interconnects).

Quote:

Originally posted by Peterg2 What I need is either a moderately priced receiver (I do not mind replacing my current receiver) or a headphone amplifier which will accept digital sources and in the case of the receiver will convert those digital sources and pipe them through my tape output.

The Grace 901 ($1200) and Benchmark DAC ($750) are both well-regarded combo DAC/headphone amps. There's nothing cheaper, unfortunately. I don't think the upcoming Headroom Bithead accepts an S/PDIF input.

Maybe you should just get the Pioneer SE-1000C and use different headphones with it?

Quote:

Originally posted by Peterg2 The other alternative is to purchase the Denon 2 x 20 Watt receiver ADV-M71 with a built in DVD player (I have two of them already). This can be hooked up to my sub and my receiver to create 5.1 when I want to use speakers. In the US this unit is going for the Canadian Dollar equivalent of C$750 (say US$550) but my dealer, who is competive with the HD650 has a silly price of C$1100. But I have to say that Dolby Headphone on this unit is outstanding. I am assuming that the Dolby Headphone jack in this receiver is a lot better than the standard hookup to the amplifier speaker outputs with some resistors in series to increase the impedance. Would I be correct in assuming that the headphone jack in this would be good and a replacement for a low-end amplifier like the Rega Ear?

I'm not sure that anyone around here has heard that particular amp, but if you like the sound and think it's outstanding, that's what counts. Is there any possibility of auditioning it and taking along the Rega to compare against? If you do, be sure to post your impressions. I'm sure a lot of people here will be interested.

 

[IWalker182]

You could always go the cheaper route and get an ART DI/O it costs around $100-$130 US and with a few mods is supposed to sound the equal of much more expensive DACs. You can also buy it already modded for about twice the original price. That'll give you a way to get analog outputs either straight to your rega ear or into your reciever. The cable for mine hasn't come yet...so I don't know how it'll sound...or if I screwed up a mod, etc. But I'll let you know once it gets hooked up to my prehead. I'm hopin for good things. My cheapie SACD player that I just bought made a huge difference over my old equipment...so I'm hoping this will make an equally impressive change.

 

[Music Fanatic]

How many digital and analogue sound sources do you have?

 

[Peterg2]

Thanks all for the replies. They really are appreciated.

A bit of an update.

I may have at least partially resolved my situation but I am not hundred percent sure yet. This morning I was quite exasperated with the situation I have put myself in. Just using the HD590 from my headphone jack on my cheap Pioneer VSX-509S was very good and I should have left it at that.

But really liking the sound of the HD600 I am now into that headphone (for some reason things are changed and allegedly Sennheiser Canada will not supply the HD650 for a few months) the Rega Ear and now it seems another receiver.

When I phoned my dealer and pointed out that my receiver does not have pre-outs and that my two sources - digital cable box (coax digital) and DVD/CD player (optical out) will not obviously output those sources through the tape he came up with a suggestion.

He bought two years ago a Denon AVR-1802 which he was thinking of upgrading. This has left and right pre-amp out and said he would take my Pioneer (roughly 3 years old and quite a bit less expensive) and for US$300 (C$400) I could have his Denon which he would upgrade. (By doing this trade I also do not play a total of 15% salestax which I would on a new purchase).The newer Denons in the lower end price range like the AVR-1804 seem to have dropped the pre-amp outs.

The whole situation was wearing on me and I went for it and today I gave back my receiver in return for his.

I have it all hooked up and the pre-amp outputs left and right work as they should, taking my digital sources and with the DACS converts it into analog and fed to my analog inputs of my rega ear.

I thought it was broken initially as I had to crank up quite a bit the volume control on the Rega Ear. The scale on the Denon goes from -60 to +15. The Rega Ear is analog and goes from the 7 o'clock position to the 5 o'clock position. If I crank up the Denon to -10 or so I can have the Rega Ear at the 11 o'clock position (a bit under mid-point). Does it sound right that I would have to have the pre-amp at such a level when normally through speakers I would have it at say just -30?

Anyhow, any comments are most appreciated.

 

[JaZZ]

Peter...

...theoretically it should sound best with the pre-amp set at max, which means no signal attenuation by its potentiometer.

Now to use the pre-amp out to feed a headphone amp isn't an ideal solution: you have a superfluous amplification stage and two potentiometers in the signal path, with all their signal-degrading potential. Another thing you can try in your situation is to use the pre-amp as headphone amp -- with an RCA-->1/4"-jack adapter. It's quite likely that it will work (depending on the pre-amp's output impedance and current-supply capability) and provide better sound than you have now.

 

[Peterg2]

Quote:

Originally posted by JaZZ Peter... ...theoretically it should sound best with the pre-amp set at max, which means no signal attenuation by its potentiometer. Now to use the pre-amp out to feed a headphone amp isn't an ideal solution: you have a superfluous amplification stage and two potentiometers in the signal path, with all their signal-degrading potential. Another thing you can try in your situation is to use the pre-amp as headphone amp -- with an RCA-->1/4"-jack adapter. It's quite likely that it will work (depending on the pre-amp's output impedance and current-supply capability) and provide better sound than you have now.

Thanks for your reply.That does sound intriguing with the connection you suggest. I just have problems with the output level of the Denon pre-amp outputs directly to my headphones. I can always go - for a quick and dirtly and interim solution - to Radio Shack for testing it

But I am thinking that I might as well get a full reciever upgrade and go from the Denon AVR-1802 to a new AVR-2803. My receiver was low grade to start with and I might as well get a higher grade Denon which is new. I only did the swap a matter of hours ago and what was a simple C$300 purchase has snowballed into a C$1100 purchase. If I am going to do an upgrade to my reciever I think I should spend an extra $300-$400 and get the much higher quality Dacs in the 2803.

Peter