[Chris Kelly]

Here's what I mean. Is it yet possible to mic a room and when the volume of the mic mixer is no louder than your surroundings, not be able to tell you're listening through headphones because of the design of the headphones? If headphones which produce such a phenomenon would cost thousands of dollars, what's the closest I can get to this point for between $300 and $500? I don't care whether over-ear, on-ear, in-ear, open-back, closed-back, the driver is large, medium, or small, dynamic, planer magnetic, marketed for audiophiles, marketed for consumers, marketed for DJs, marketed for gaming, marketed for hearing specialists, marketed for live/professional/recording studio use, wired, Bluetooth, RF wireless, wifi LAN, high impedance, low impedance, AKG, Apple, Audio-Technica, Beyerdynamic, Bose, Cambridge Audio, Creative Labs, Dell, Hifiman, HP, Koss, Onkyo, Oppo, Philips, Pioneer, Samsung, Sennheiser, Shure, Sony, Yamaha, etc..

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Probably this has more to do with the mixing. And most mixes are still done on speakers. There are a few guys here with studio/engineering experience but a pro audio forum would be more likely to have the info you are looking for.

 

[wantan]

Most headphones are transparent to details because distortion is usually below audible levels. So this point is easily covered.

Soundstage with headphones is always different as with speakers because the sound is coming from left and right, so you don't get stereo. It will need DSP to get headphones to sound like speakers.

What's left for headphones is frequency response. The most advanced research in this field for the pro-audio user is Sonarworks. In your price range (actually in any price range) a Sennheiser/Drop Hd58x or HD650 with individual calibration would be the best bet.

If you don't want calibration the HD650/600/58x come closest to the Sonarworks target on their own.
You can get plenty of fantastic explanation at the Sonarworks Blog: https://www.sonarworks.com/blog/
Especially the headphone review and the research sections are interesting.

For the consumer transparency is eventually easier. Producers want their music to sound great on the audio systems the people out there have. The listener should enjoy the music and buy more, it's a commercial product in the end. So if music sounds great for you, and you want more, your audio system is transparent because it sounds exactly as the producer intended it to sound. Doesn't matter if you spent 300 on this or 3000.

As @gimmeheadroom mentioned the pro audio scene, they are much more relaxed about headphone than headfi. Most popular studio high end headphones are AKGk812 and Beyerdynamic dt1990. Most people use cheaper headphone though, mostly the classic three Beyer dt880/dt990/dt770. HD600 and HD650 is also popular but most people think they lack some treble. AKG still has followers, too.

 

[Chris Kelly]

Most headphones are transparent to details because distortion is usually below audible levels. So this point is easily covered.

Soundstage with headphones is always different as with speakers because the sound is coming from left and right, so you don't get stereo. It will need DSP to get headphones to sound like speakers.

What's left for headphones is frequency response. The most advanced research in this field for the pro-audio user is Sonarworks. In your price range (actually in any price range) a Sennheiser/Drop Hd58x or HD650 with individual calibration would be the best bet.

If you don't want calibration the HD650/600/58x come closest to the Sonarworks target on their own.
You can get plenty of fantastic explanation at the Sonarworks Blog: https://www.sonarworks.com/blog/
Especially the headphone review and the research sections are interesting.

For the consumer transparency is eventually easier. Producers want their music to sound great on the audio systems the people out there have. The listener should enjoy the music and buy more, it's a commercial product in the end. So if music sounds great for you, and you want more, your audio system is transparent because it sounds exactly as the producer intended it to sound. Doesn't matter if you spent 300 on this or 3000.

As @gimmeheadroom mentioned the pro audio scene, they are much more relaxed about headphone than headfi. Most popular studio high end headphones are AKGk812 and Beyerdynamic dt1990. Most people use cheaper headphone though, mostly the classic three Beyer dt880/dt990/dt770. HD600 and HD650 is also popular but most people think they lack some treble. AKG still has followers, too.

Just confirming that the HD 660S aren't as transparent being that you didn't mention them.

 

[wantan]

Just confirming that the HD 660S aren't as transparent being that you didn't mention them.

I don't want to step on the feet of the HD660s owner here. The HD660s midrange lower treble region share some similarities in tonality with HD599 and since you mentioned you found the HD599 a bit colored, some of this is also audible in the HD660s.
Sonarworks has reviews for HD660s and HD650.

There are two more headphones that are quite neutral, one it the HD560s which is a bit on the bright side, the other the new Neumann NDH30 which lacks some treble and is pretty expensive for what it does. It still has a nicely balanced tonality. If you want to start comparing stuff.

 

[Chris Kelly]

I don't want to step on the feet of the HD660s owner here. The HD660s midrange lower treble region share some similarities in tonality with HD599 and since you mentioned you found the HD599 a bit colored, some of this is also audible in the HD660s.
Sonarworks has reviews for HD660s and HD650.

There are two more headphones that are quite neutral, one it the HD560s which is a bit on the bright side, the other the new Neumann NDH30 which lacks some treble and is pretty expensive for what it does. It still has a nicely balanced tonality. If you want to start comparing stuff.

I tried the 560S and HD 400 PRO back in February and returned them because dialog had a touch of telephone quality as opposed to feeling like I was listening to people in person. Thanks for showing me the reviews posted by Sonarworks. The reviews at rtings.com seem to constantly controdict themselves. In one section, they'll say bass, mid, or treble accuracy is decent, yet in another section for the same headphones review, they'll say there is a peak or dip somewhere. The Sonarworks reviews seem more consistent. Based on the reports in the Sonarworks reviews, being that I don't always connect my headphones to components with equalizers and computers I can install EQ software on, it comes down to either the Audio-technica ATH-R70X or the Sennheiser HD 650. Although I wish Sonarworks would also review the HD 600.

 

[lantian]

If you can get try and get your hands on Sennheiser HD 540 reference gold. Or their cheaper, open field tuned, smaller brother the hd 480 Classic

 

[xeizo]

I've got "is there someone in the room?" experiences the most on the HD600, it really is about as flat as can be if flatness is what counts. Flat as in really flat, not as in following the Harman curve. HD650 sounds more coloured imho, it has a pronounced lower midrange/upper bass making it "warm" but not neutral as the HD600.

I haven't heard the HD660S, but there's reportedly more liveliness/treble/upper midrange going on = not perfectly neutral

 

[wantan]

I tried the 560S and HD 400 PRO back in February and returned them because dialog had a touch of telephone quality as opposed to feeling like I was listening to people in person. Thanks for showing me the reviews posted by Sonarworks. The reviews at rtings.com seem to constantly controdict themselves. In one section, they'll say bass, mid, or treble accuracy is decent, yet in another section for the same headphones review, they'll say there is a peak or dip somewhere. The Sonarworks reviews seem more consistent. Based on the reports in the Sonarworks reviews, being that I don't always connect my headphones to components with equalizers and computers I can install EQ software on, it comes down to either the Audio-technica ATH-R70X or the Sennheiser HD 650. Although I wish Sonarworks would also review the HD 600.

ATH R70x is very nice, too.

HD560s lacks some warmth giving it a dry sound that's not very friendly. The HD6xy and R70x are different.

I hear the same as @xeizo regarding HD650/600, but the difference is realy quite small. You need to listen to the headphones yourself or just buy the one that gives you a better feeling. Can't go wrong with either.

I have both and sometimes I don't know which one I wear at the moment.

 

[Beagle]

If you can get try and get your hands on Sennheiser HD 540 reference gold. Or their cheaper, open field tuned, smaller brother the hd 480 Classic

Yes, the HD480. It has finely balanced, highly transparent and completely natural tonal response.

 

[Beagle]

I haven't heard the HD660S, but there's reportedly more liveliness/treble/upper midrange going on = not perfectly neutral

Forget about top end air and space because the 660s have none.

 

[Chris Kelly]

There seems to be a lot of accessibility issues with selling online. So if I am unable to sell the AV gear I won't be using anymore, I might keep my HD 559 and HD 599, and just get the HD 560S. The HD 559 are the warmest, making them good for singers like Andrea Bocelli, Celine Dion, Enya, etc.. The HD 599 have boosted bass and treble, making them good for Classic Rock. The HD 560S have more of a balanced bass, but gives voices the quality of a telephone earpiece. Out of these three, I'm not sure which I'd prefer for Classical music, movies, and TV shows.

 

[catscratch]

I've heard stuff like this out of the HE90, the SR-007 mk1, and more recently out a modded L700. But it really depends on the recording, probably more so than it does on the headphone. I'd say something like an HD600/650 would be your best best for under $500, but EQing to your individual preference can get other headphones there too.

Basically you want a minimally mic'd recording or at least something that fakes spatial cues very well, you want a headphone with a very open midrange that's not grainy or harsh, you want a natural tembre or as close to it as you can get, and you want a fairly flat FR in your headphone, which EQ will help with, so you don't hear any distracting and annoying colorations. Once you get close enough to neutral with a headphone that's resolving enough, and you have a very 3-dimensional recording, the brain can sometimes fool you into thinking you're not listening to a headphone.

Now, is it going to be exactly like the real thing? No of course not. But if you get close enough the mind fills in the gaps where the system is lacking and sometimes it'll pull off the illusion. Not consistently though, at least not in my experience. And as you go higher and higher end, it doesn't necessarily get better. Yes you get more resolution and more extreme separation/imaging, but it doesn't always sound natural. Having said that though the HE90 and SR-007 are about as high-end as it gets, and the L700, depending on the system, can punch way above its pricepoint.

Unrelated, but games these days are getting better with virtualization and I've had this experience in a few games here and there too.

 

[Malfunkt]

The closest I have got to absolute transparency was with the following setup:

Focal Utopia used with Waves Abbey Road Studio 3. If you want to truly hear the 'room' and true stereo soundstage and instrument placement then spatial DSP is essential. Waves Abbey Road Studio is a professional grade spatial DSP that can simulate the 3 main speaker stacks at Abbey Road studio. While it has preset EQ for a number of headphones, I found with the Utopia's incredible transient performance and resolution, I was able to get near life-like speaker presentation. Something that I had not quite reached with other headphones and DSP setups. Additionally, you can use a head track for more immersion, but I prefer not to. I found that even using Abbey Road with an HD600 did not provide the accurate room depth that Utopia could.

I sold my Utopia a while back and prefer to use less expensive gear now. I have yet to test the HD660S with Abbey Road but I do use the HD660S with the mobile version of Waves NX - which is still very good. I can say that Waves NX works excellently with headphones and even IEMs like Etymotic to give you binaural immersion with stereo recordings.

Also, worthy of note, is multi-channel simulations such as Dolby Atmos for Headphones, which works very well with 5.1 content to provide an immersive experience.
@catscratch I also agree, game headphone spatial virtualization will be one of the main drivers in the industry for immersion. Luckily, many industry professionals use HD650 and similar headphones for their target curves so all of us will be in for a treat. I'm looking forward to unboxing my PS5 this December so I can play Returnal which uses Sony's spatial DSP engine which si reportedly very good.
@Chris Kelly let me know if you have any questions on binaural or spatial DSP. I'd be glad to explain further as it is an area that is oft misunderstood by even mainstream reviewers (glad to see Crinacle talk about it though in his recent Air Pod Pro 2 review).

Edit: my recommendation in your price bracket is a used/discounted HD600, 650 or HD660S. Buy Waves Abbey Road Studio. For Windows or Mac you will need a VST or Audio Unit host and then need to route your favourite music player through it. This will take some more advanced knowledge but it's worth it. You can read about how engineers approach this here https://vi-control.net/community/th...which-plugin-experience-feedback.72822/page-2
I also use a separate audio line out from my O2/ODAC to a 1-st generation SubPac, as depending on what I'm listening to, no headphone can truly produce the tactile feedback or true subbass tones. SubPac's are hard to get a hold of, but are incredible if you remotely enjoy bass. They are supposed to come out with the X1 "soon".

Some good general reading here:
https://www.sonarworks.com/blog/learn/immersive-audio

 

[catscratch]

Returnal's sound is really impressive and super well done. Unreal 4 also has very good sound and even indie titles made in it - like Deep Rock Galactic - have really impressive virtualization. Going back a little bit, for all the issues Bethesda's Creation engine has, it does sound pretty well, though their voice recording quality can be hit or miss, sometimes they forget to de-ess the vocals lol.

I EQ all my electrostats to an HD650-like response so it's not surprising that they do well with things that have been mastered for it. The Utopia is not far off from that too.