[DC Lee]

Tell me I am doing the right thing

. I spent a few months following various DAC threads, looked at prices, and googled anything I could find on it. I saw it mentioned on the Slim Devices forum as a good DAC upgrade for my SB3, the NAIM forum boys have been buying it, and I am too broke right now to blindly trust spending big bucks on any of the expensive suggestions.
I see they are also doing free shipping this month on the combination I want with the cables.

So before I pull the trigger, can anybody say how good it sounds with mp3????



[size=large]2009-03-05 1525 EST MODERATOR NOTE: This thread was closed because the original poster (DC Lee) shares IP addresses with StanleyB1 (Stanley Beresford) and Herandu.[/size]

 

[donthuang]

It's sounds good with loseless format, the timbre more sweet&clean

 

[Ryu1]

Using a dedicated DAC just to listen to mp3s kind of defeats the purpose of having one. Doesn't it? With mp3 i doubt you'd notice any difference in SQ between a DAC and a mid range sound card.

 

[monolith]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryu1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Using a dedicated DAC just to listen to mp3s kind of defeats the purpose of having one. Doesn't it? With mp3 i doubt you'd notice any difference in SQ between a DAC and a mid range sound card.

Untrue. mp3s over 192kbps are transparent for almost all people for almost all music.

 

[Ryu1]

Well for me mp3s with 192kbps sound the same as mp3s with higher bitrates even up to 320kbps. They sound as bad as each other. But with flacs I notice a significant improvement over all mp3s regardless of bitrate.

 

[royalcrown]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryu1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well for me mp3s with 192kbps sound the same as mp3s with higher bitrates even up to 320kbps. They sound as bad as each other. But with flacs I notice a significant improvement over all mp3s regardless of bitrate.

Congratulations. However, this doesn't mean that "using a dedicated DAC just to listen to mp3s kind of defeats the purpose of having one." There can still be many benefits to upgrade source material even if one's music library is encoded in mp3.

Just as an aside, have you tried using foobar2k's ABX test feature to blind test FLAC and mp3 files? It seems pretty odd that you can tell the difference between FLAC and mp3, but not between various levels of mp3, especially considering the difference in artifacts would be more drastic when going from 192 to 320 than from 320 to FLAC. Saying that "they all sound bad as each other/But with flacs I notice a significant improvement... regardless of bitrate" sounds like a bit of placebo effect (you're anticipating that FLAC is freaking awesome, and mp3's are horrible demonspawn bad. Whether or not this is true, it's likely that it's influencing your perception of the music).

On topic: I auditioned a beresford very briefly, and while I didn't have a lot of time to listen carefully to the nuances of it, the DAC sounded pretty damn good to me - it's tough to say if it will necessarily be that much better than the SB3. My advice would be to keep your cash and wait to buy something better later down the road that's higher end, if you want to make sure that there will be a nice clear benefit from the SB3 to something better.

 

[DC Lee]

Like I said some people on the SB3 Slim Devices forum mention that the TC-7510 sounds even better than the standard SB3 and on the English site WigWam a few did the same. Plus Beresford claims on his site that his DAC has been optimized for the SB3 and the Airport. That's the sort of confidence building words I have looked for on other sites but nada, niks, nocando from anyone else.
I even downloaded the Benchmark manual, and you can't go higher than that when you talk about a good high end DAC. They don't mention anything about using their DAC with mp3 or computers for that matter.
I am going to sit on my hand for a day or two and see if any other Beresford owner can give their opinion on how it sounds with mp3 compared to when they take the Beresford out of the equation.

 

[1UP]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC Lee /img/forum/go_quote.gif Like I said some people on the SB3 Slim Devices forum mention that the TC-7510 sounds even better than the standard SB3 and on the English site WigWam a few did the same.

But what standard is that? I have read "on some forums" the Beresford sounds like arse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC Lee /img/forum/go_quote.gif Beresford claims on his site that his DAC has been optimized for the SB3 and the Airport. That's the sort of confidence building words I have looked for on other sites but nada, niks, nocando from anyone else.

How exactly can a cheapo DAC be "optimised" for these digital sources?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC Lee /img/forum/go_quote.gif I even downloaded the Benchmark manual, and you can't go higher than that when you talk about a good high end DAC. They don't mention anything about using their DAC with mp3 or computers for that matter.

And neither do Analog Devices, neither does Lavry...Zanden...why should they? Isn't it blooming obvious? It's a DAC - not an "mp3 player". Its job is to convert a digital source (doesn't have to be a computer, doesn't have to be mp3 source) to analogue.

I hope you enjoy your new "optimised for SB3 and MP3" DAC. Their marketing obviously seems to be just what you're looking for.

 

[DC Lee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1UP /img/forum/go_quote.gif But what standard is that? I have read "on some forums" the Beresford sounds like arse.

But the same can be said of just about every other DAC or other forms of audio equipment that people slag off across the net. I know people who swear by the Linn LP12, and others who thinks it is absolute rubbish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1UP /img/forum/go_quote.gif How exactly can a cheapo DAC be "optimised" for these digital sources?

I don't know, but has price got anything to do with how clever a designer can be? Or are only expensive products clever designs? Does that mean the new cheaper iPhone is going to be rubbish? And is the quality of petrol now far better than the cheaper one sold last year?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1UP /img/forum/go_quote.gif And neither do Analog Devices, neither does Lavry...Zanden...why should they? Isn't it blooming obvious? It's a DAC - not an "mp3 player". Its job is to convert a digital source (doesn't have to be a computer, doesn't have to be mp3 source) to analogue.

I see, so those other ones you mention are only able to play sweet music when you feed them with CD quality files. Now I understand why they don't mention mp3 type files because they probably don't do a good job with lossy files. Thanks for pointing that out to me. I nearly bought a Lavry by mistake. I guess I would have been very angry when I played a lossy file and the Lavry was not able to do a proper job on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1UP /img/forum/go_quote.gif I hope you enjoy your new "optimised for SB3 and MP3" DAC. Their marketing obviously seems to be just what you're looking for.

I looked at the marketing and website of all sorts of DAC. The Benchmark one is very good and even the operation instructions are full of marketing stuff. You think they would sell more of the DAC1 if they toned down their marketing? And isn't marketing supposed to give us poor consumers a certain amount of information so we can decide if that is what we are looking for? Or do you suggest that all we should get on a website is a Buy It Now button?
You sound like a bitter man. Are you a high-end dealer by any chance who is fed up that the Beresford is cutting into your business? I never trust people who can find loads of reasons why we should not look at something cheaper that still has all the functions we need. My cheap fone can play mp3, take picture, send texts, and even make fone calls. You think a far more expensive one would do all those things better?
I bought a U$50 DVD player the other day from Costco and it plays fine. It even has coax and toslink out. Do you think that to design and build it so cheap was easier than designing and building a DAC that cost say twenty times that money and also has coax and toslink out?

I am just a stupid fish market trader so pardon my questions. Times are hard and business is slow. And I don't know who to trust these days when it comes to getting good advise on the best bangs for my bucks. I paid good money for a very small tin of caviar because they say it is worth the money. It was very salty in taste and tasted horrible.

 

[1UP]

It's a DAC. Its function is the same as any other DAC - I am asking you to think through the marketing and ask/understand - how exactly is it optimised for mp3 or the SB3?

I'll claim that if it's not at all optimised, and that it lacks the basic resolution to show differences in source quality, then it's basically because it's not very good.

Quote:

Now I understand why they don't mention mp3 type files because they probably don't do a good job with lossy files.

Do yourself a favour, rip a cd to 64kbps and one to lossess. Play them back through speakers or whatever you want. A "better" DAC (not necessarily more expensive), just as "better" speakers, will show you which one sounds like compressed, messy crap and which one sounds like the original.

Quote:

I would have been very angry when I played a lossy file and the Lavry was not able to do a proper job on it.

A proper job here means telling it like it is. If it sounds like crap, it is crap. That's not the DAC's fault. Or how about the idea of using better source material to enjoy your music more?

On marketing, bleh, I don't really give a monkey's. Just look at the basics of the circuit design and component quality, Consider the features you need and the price you want to pay. Listen to the thing. Use your ears, not your eyes.

Fact is digital needs all the help it can get to not sound unnatural, let alone good. If you're happy with your $50 DVD player then great, you'll save a lot of money. And if you'll just be happy with something that will make lossy mp3s sound "alright" or "not horrible"? Then buy anything.

I'm not a dealer and I don't own high-end stuff by any means. I'm not saying cheap products can't sound good. I'm just baffled by your evangelism for this product whose marketing itself looks like a load of cobblers. And FYI, the UK forum guys who've bought this on pinkfish or zerogain have only bought it cause it's cheap - there are as many who listen to it then say it's meh, but hey it's cheap so they cba to throw it away.

 

[Hi-Fi Low-Life]

I found this post on AVS Forum interesting:

Inside Pics of the Beresford
At True hifi for all for music and cinema at your home theater - tc 7510 beresford. you'll find that identifying markings have been scratched off to protect the guilty and obfuscate curious people. But never fear, the unit itself is sourced from TECHNOLINK ENTERPRISE CO. ±áÀA¹ê·~¦³**¤½¥q, RIAA Phono preamps, Audio/video switchers, AV Distribution/amplifier, Scart switcher, Scart and AV connector/adapters, Speaker selectors, D/A Converter, Cables,MC/MM°Ê°ÛÀY«H¸¹¤Î§C¹q¥*«e¯Å©ñ¤j¾¹, AV¿é¤J¿ï¾Ü/ and I'm sure most of Bereford's design is nothing more than changing the lettering. The unit itself uses a BB PCM1716, which is a very dated design going back 8 or so years. While this doesn't mean it's bad, it's also nothing special. IMO, if you're using a PC as your center, then it'd make more sense to just get a competent pro model soundcard. At least you'd get headroom.

Beresford TC-7510 DAC any good? - AVS Forum

 

[Redo]

The entire Beresford TC-7510 ordeal has reeked of bad business and self-hype since the first threads popped up about the unit. The DAC itself may be decent, but I wouldn't give my money to zealous business model surrounding the DAC.


Though this is an assumption (but it doesn't take too much research to come to this conclusion), I'm willing to bet somebody loaded up on OEM DAC's for very very cheap. Somebody is now reselling the units by creating dozens of forum names and zealously spamming how good the unit is all over the net.


I'd much rather see the money spent on the original manufacturer's unit, or buy a DAC from an ethical business.

 

[royalcrown]

DC Lee, 1Up is giving you very sound and grounded advice - there's no reason to berate him the way that you did. It seems that you've already made up your mind about the Beresford before you started this thread, so why even make it? Anyway, to address some things that you've said:

Just because some people on a forum (including this one!) say that a component is the greatest thing since sliced bread, that doesn't mean it will be the same for you. The best way to go about with these things is to audition it for yourself, especially when you're dealing with incremental differences between products.

As for what Beresford says, there's no possible way for a DAC to be optimized for a squeezebox. That just doesn't make sense. The SB will send a digital signal to any DAC you throw at it, and the DAC will take the incoming bits and output them as an analog wave. No DAC has a built-in AI unit that can differentiate between an optical signal coming from a Squeezebox and an optical signal coming from a CD player. All DACs will perform their duty, some better than others, but no DAC can be optimized for a specific transport.

Finally, a DAC cannot be better at lossless than MP3, or vice versa. This simply does not make sense when considering how a digital-analog converter works. With an mp3, a lot of the bits of data are cleaved off in order to achieve compression. Those modified bits will be processed in the same exact manner as the FLAC with all of the bits intact - there will simply be more bits, and thus higher sound quality (in theory - whether or not this is audible, and to what degree, depends on the individual). Again, the DAC cannot discriminate between types of files - it just takes what's given to it and translates it into an analog signal.

If you want the Beresford, get it - it's your money. If that's the case, however, there's no need to start a new thread just so you can vehemently defend the product as awesome based on what you've read in the product description. Marketing isn't "supposed to give us poor consumers a certain amount of information so we can decide if that is what we are looking for," as you seem to believe. Marketing is about making sure you press the "buy now" button, regardless of the quality of the product. For example:

Newegg.com - SpecResearch SP-250 2.0 Speaker - Speakers

"Features: Powerful lifelike sound quality"

Obviously, because they say so, it must be true, right?

 

[Golden Monkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redo /img/forum/go_quote.gif The entire Beresford TC-7510 ordeal has reeked of bad business and self-hype since the first threads popped up about the unit. The DAC itself may be decent, but I wouldn't give my money to zealous business model surrounding the DAC. Though this is an assumption (but it doesn't take too much research to come to this conclusion), I'm willing to bet somebody loaded up on OEM DAC's for very very cheap. Somebody is now reselling the units by creating dozens of forum names and zealously spamming how good the unit is all over the net. I'd much rather see the money spent on the original manufacturer's unit, or buy a DAC from an ethical business.

OR, these certain people spend time slamming other, better, higher quality DACs, giving the impression that the makers are charging you more for a product that is no better than the Beresford...hmmm...

 

[DC Lee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by royalcrown /img/forum/go_quote.gif DC Lee, 1Up is giving you very sound and grounded advice - there's no reason to berate him the way that you did. It seems that you've already made up your mind about the Beresford before you started this thread, so why even make it?

I appreciate your honest way in trying to put your point of view across. However, my initial question to the general head-fi forum was if anyone could tell me how the Beresford sounded with mp3. That means that I expected to receive an answer from anyone who has heard the Beresford playing mp3.
1Up expressed comments that do not show that he has heard the Beresford, but relied on comments he claims to have read that the "Beresford was arse". I googled for any comments like that so I could see in which context it was written. I cannot find any, so repeating such things and writing about cheapo etc. are not very helpful to me when trying to find out what to do.

I read again what it says on their website which is
"Most digital to analogue converters are aimed at the CD and DVD audiophiles. The TC-7510 has however been designed for a broader range of application and has been further optimized for accurate PC and wireless digital audio reproduction. That includes wireless servers such as the SB3, Airport Express, DAB radio, and satellite audio."

You may or may not be right about a DAC chip and how it handles a digital signal. I am also interested to know what exactly is done in the Beresford to make those claims. Perhaps it is the analog output stage that is designed differently??? Perhaps it is the oversampling chip that makes lossy signals sound better than if it was a NOS DAC?

I get the feeling some people don't like the Beresford and make all sorts of claims about it. But at the same time they push some other DAC for people to listen to. I still don't have the answer about using it with mp3 but I have heard that they offer a money back guarantee and that is a good low risk chance. And if the old posts about head-fi member discounts are also true then I am willing to give it a chance. Sometimes it is best to try something for yourself than to trust others with giving you a sensible answer. My dad used to say that I would not like girls and that they are a lot of trouble. But I did not want to remain single and did not fancy going out with a bloke instead. So I ignored my dad and his advise and took a chance with girls. As it turned out, I did the right thing. Maybe it is time to follow my instinct again and give the Beresford a try myself and send it back if it is not better than my SB3 inbuilt DAC. But maybe it will be good or better than I expected. Who knows.

Thanks everyone for your comments. I shall now go and try to negotiate with Mr Beresford about a head-fi discount

.