[pauliunas]

There is a very interesting project going on at eve-tech.com: a Finnish startup Eve has decided to "flip" the manufacturing process of devices upside-down and instead of stuffing all the crap they can make to customers, they are now openly listening to the suggestions of community members and implementing them in their next project, "Pyramid Flipper" (get it? Pyramid means that manufacturer is usually on the top, ignoring the customers' complaints, and if you flip it, it means that customers are telling them what to do!)
 
I happen to be a part of a group of select community members called Eve Insider, so I know quite a lot about this device, more than other community members - feel free to ask me your questions.
 
So, what is this new project about?
 
The "Pyramid Flipper" is a tablet/laptop hybrid, just like the Microsoft Surface line. But the Surfaces cost an arm and a leg, and are still far from perfect: for example, the sound quality from speakers is terrible. Not the regular laptop-terrible, but even worse than usual.
So, the goal of Pyramid Flipper is to learn from the mistakes of other manufacturers and make the perfect device, without making the price sky-high. They're making a thin and light tablet that can actually replace a laptop, without being heavy or thick. As of now, the hardware specifications have pretty much settled, and they're going with a Core M5 CPU, 8GB of RAM and Wacom stylus support, if that's interesting to you. I expect it to really be much better than Microsoft Surface Pro 4, and the best part is that their top model (probably 512GB SSD and Core M7 CPU) should be cheaper than $1000.
You can find more information at their website.
 
Why am I telling you this?
 
Because among the hundred of ideas originated in their community forums, there was one particularly interesting for audiophiles, I believe. People have expressed the need for a good quality audio system. We all agreed that you can't squeeze out much from the speakers at this form factor, and now we're talking about having a good DAC/amp section which would boost the sound quality when using headphones. As you might have guessed, I'm pretty much the main supporter and "advisor" for this idea, but honestly, I'm not a very advanced audiophile. So I'm looking for help: what do you guys think would make a device stand out of the crowd?
 
In fact, I would like to invite you guys join the community at eve.community and voice your opinion on what could be improved in this product. Trust me, it's fun
 
And of course, I'm not here only to collect your ideas and take the credit for it. That would be evil In fact, I wanted to know if anyone from here would be interested in buying such a device. That is, if it really has wonderful sound quality.
 
Now is the time. You have the chance to get rid of your pains using shi**y laptop audio and paying extra money for external equipment. Only now you can direct the manufacturing process the right way!
 
And just to get you more excited, I will tell you that Eve has already decided to use a DAC chip from Cirrus Logic and they are showing interest in this project. What else do you think could make a computer more appealing to audiophiles? Maybe configurable line-level output from the headphone port? What is important apart from the DAC? Insulation? Clear power supply? What else? We, the community, are waiting for your ideas and don't forget that this project is all about you, the customer.
 
DISCLAIMER: Even though I am a part of the Eve Insider program, I'm in no way affiliated with Eve, and I'm posting entirely on my own free will. I'm not here to recruit new members of their community, I'm here to scoop some wisdom on how to make the world a better place for us, audiophiles.

 

[pauliunas]

Please post whether you like the idea or not. If not, I'd like to know what would make you interested
I'm an audiophile myself, and it's a pain that I have to use a separate DAP for my music... I could as well use a USB DAC, but let's face it, it's not the best solution for a portable device like a laptop or a tablet. Wouldn't it be awesome if we had a great, audiophile-grade audio system on a tablet?
Eve is going to use one of the best DAC chips from Cirrus Logic, and that's already good. But what about the amp and other parts? They can either make something *they* think is good, or theey can build the perfect system with your help

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I like the idea, however there are too many other considerations with a laptop. Nice to see that the hardware and price are great for this price point, however if I had the money for it, I might spring for the flagship Surface device - the big one with a better keyboard+battery and has a discrete graphics card in the keyboard unit.

 

That said, even foregoing gaming, the screen needs to be of good quality as well. Those who edit photos and upload in hotel rooms while on vacation can do with a Core M and its iGPU (vs the weight, size, and build quality of most AMD APU-equipped laptops, and none are hybrids either), but a decent enough screen is a must. Doesn't need to be ultra high res - those with D800Es and Hasselblads would have the money to go for a more expensive laptop anyway - but something that can easily handle the more common digital camera pic sizes (ie my friend had a cheap Toshiba that he got for the decent discrete GPU, but images from his D800E had banding all over).

 

Another consideration is how to service the laptops. If people work on such laptops, they also need the peace of mind from global warranty as well as more accessible repairs, not sending it across an ocean to get it looked at. This is an often ignored factor as to what makes mainstream brands more popular, mostly because people don't really need to service the laptops until a) they're throttling from being too dusty inside and the user doesn't have the know-how to DIY it or 2) it's really, really, broken (and by such time, usually out of the warranty period anyway). A passively cooled system though prevents wear and tear so there is a lot less to worry about, but be aware that some users can still be hesitant knowing there isn't a local drop off (if not one with an in-house tech) who can take a look at it. Data isn't that much of a problem if you work with a Cloud back up, but there are people who just use that one laptop and don't have a (gaming) desktop at home.

 

As for the audio hardware specifically, I'd say a circuit akin to what's in the Fiio X1 or X3 would be enough - dedicated DAC chip, line output op-amp, and amplifier output stage. If anything maybe collaborate with Meier Audio for example to integrate a circuit similar to the PCStep but can work off the laptop battery; crossfeed available on Foobar anyway so no need for hardware for that. And then maybe a headphone+mic combo and a separate lineout jack for those who want to use active speakers for example.

 

[pauliunas]

Thank you for the input.
I deliberately focused on the audio part in this thread and only went through other parts very fast, but I do understand your concerns. Don't worry, thry're dping the very best they can to ensure the best possible quality of every component. They won't go cheap on any of them
The screen will probably be similar to the Surface Book, 3:2 aspect ratio and at least 1440p resolution, with big focus on brightness (for using it outside) and viewing angles.

As of now they can't say much about warranty, but they are considering multiple possibilities. First of all, they'll probably partner with big retail stores, I guess a good example of such would be Best Buy in the USA. Of course, buying from stores will be more expensive, because retailers also want to make profit, but you will get the seller's local warranty. Then therr have been considerations about finding locla repair centres to partner with. They can't find one in each country, but you will probably need to send it either to your country or to a neighbouring one. And lastly, they said they would send you replacement parts if you're under warranty. So if something goes wrong, you go to any compoter shop that repairs tablets, they find the problem, tell Eve what part they need, receive it by post and replace it. It will take a couple of days and you will probably need to pay for labor, but i think it's better than sending the tablet back and forth and taking the risk of getting "caught" by your customs office

But as I said, this is not a final decision, and they're actively listening to users' suggestions. So if you have any ideas, don't hesitate to post them at eve.community or just in this thread - I will transfer them straight to Eve.

And please note that this thing is almost 2x less expensive than a Surface Book, with better (!) build quality, thinner and lighter. It's aimed at those who want to buy a Surface but can't afford one. The price of a 128GB/M3 including keyboard and pen would probably be less than $800, although theyy haven't confirmed that. And don't forget that the Surface book has a totally terrible battery life: in real world, you can use it for like one or two hours withoutthe keyboard and maybe 4 with it... Pyramid Flipper will have almost 10 hours real-world battery life, thanks to its fanless design and low-power CPU.

About the GPU, there is one very exciting thing this tablet has a Thunderbolt port, so you can connect an external GPU to it. Have you heard of Razer Core? Or Acer mobile graphics dock? These products will work eith the Pyramid Flipper, and Eve is actually planning to release their own, affordable PCIe enclosure after the PF goes out. If you can find a GPU that works with only bus power (no separate PSU connection), then you can just take it with you, like the Surface Book's keyboard and reduce your tablet's battery life for the sake of eGPU, if not just plug it to a wall socket.

But the most important here is the sound. Do you think having a circuit like in the FiiO X3 would really make this tablet stand out and make you consider buying one? I have also considered line output, but I think X3 has that feature through the same port, configurable by software, doesn't it? Do you think that costs a lot to implement or has any negative influence over sound quality?


P.S. the price increases by $200 if you cboose a GPU model of the Surface Book. If you want roughly equivalent performance, you buy Eve's PCIe enclosure (~$100) and this graphics card (similar performance to the Surface book's one, runs off bus power):
http://www.amazon.com/ZOTAC-GeForce-Profile-Graphics-ZT-71115-20L/dp/B00NN97MMY?th=1&psc=1
You will get the same graphics boost for a cheaper price. This card consumes maximum 25W, so the battery life will also be similar to Surface Book with its keyboard attached. But you will get a better tablet and the price will still be around $1000 or under, instead of $1750.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Well I hope it isn't just Best Buy, but other places as well. I'd rather go with Fry's in the US though. Still, while I got my last three laptops (HP, Vaio, Acer) from Fry's in the US, they have global warranty and service centers elsewhere, like here in Manila. That's what I was pointing out that this laptop, and many other smaller firms' (like Sager for example), have to go up against. A deal with Best Buy basically means one has to be where the Best Buys are. I personally have never had a laptop that had any issues within or near the warranty period (and even then it's usually just the battery), but I point this out as other people might still be more willing to go with global warranty and an external DAC-HPamp (or an IEM with higher impedance but still very high efficiency, which is more convenient anyway), not just the mainstream users who only care about audio.
 
A few more points though. If it's a hybrid, then the processor and the main board along with a battery will be behind the screen. Might as well go with a larger battery inside the keyboard for longer operating time as well as to balance the weight. At the same time it needs to be properly engineered so as not to be clunky.
 
Another concern with a tablet-laptop hybrid would be where the jacks are. I'd still go with two separate ports, but position the 3.5mm TRRS (headphone+mic) on the tablet such that when in laptop mode it's lower on the chassis, closer to the keyboard, as a plug sticking out closer to the top looks awkward. The line out port though can be on the back of the keyboard module, well out of the way if the user prefers speakers anyway (and it can be plugged in before one opens and sets down the laptop anyway), getting a signal through the dock connection (along with power from the larger battery on the keyboard; don't do what Asus did and basically just supplied a BT keyboard).
 
Regarding discrete graphics, I'm not the market for those external GPUs. There was a time I wanted one (like, back in 2009), when Sony had this ultraportable in 2011 with a dock and a separate GPU module, but later on I realized how much more CPU intensive the games I play are (Total War), so I still maintain a desktop. I still like having a good enough GPU in the laptop though for a couple of reasons: I still play when I'm away (old Unreal Tournament, Crysis, older BF/COD, etc), plus I edit photos on the laptop. If I'm at home I just use the gaming desktop to play. I recognize there's a market for those external Thunderbolt GPUs, but the way I use my laptops, an AMD A8 or A10, or an i3+R7 360/GTX 950M are more useful to me. Is there a possibility for a Zen APU (not sure if they get Polaris GPU cores) version (or at least for it to be prototyped for feasibility) once those come out? Given the potential to cram a larger battery in the keyboard I can trade a few hours' operating time from a Core M for faster photo processing, and gaming when I can plug in (ex when I'm back in the hotel). Lower TDP of Polaris should put it at around the battery consumption of a non-M Core i3/i5, and might work fanless using the back of the tablet as a heatsink. And while we're on the possibility of some measure of gaming on the road, I can use Razer Surround on the headphone output, so no need to develop 3D audio simulation software nor pay Dolby or Creative for it.

 

[pauliunas]

Thanks, your really have some awesome ideas!
I will try to answer to the points you made one by one:

I only gave Best Buy as an example. But the whole point if having the tablet in retail stores is to have it available locally worldwide. So Eve will do their homework and choose whichever networks have most coverage. For example Euronics in the EU. I don't know any other US stores so I just named Best Buy as an example Again, the whole point of this is to have worldwide retail and warranty.

The weight doesn't really need to be balanced because we're getting an adjustable kickstand, and for the keyboard we have 2 possible variants: a thin, around 5mm fabric keyboard, or a thick one with battery and ports. But since we have so many USB ports on the device itself, and the battery will last 10 hours, we are leaning towards the thin one. It would be ultra-light, with a flexible connector, but could also be used wirelessly, because sometimes it's uncomfortable having the keyboard glued to the screen. It's very important not to make the device clunky, so we're kinda going the Microsoft Surface way, but with a better quality keyboard (not so flimsy).

You made a great point in jack positioning and I will transfer it to the community tomorrow. I think it would be very irritating to have cables flopping around when the jack is on the upper part, on the other hand, people will also want the USB ports at the bottom, so we will probably have to make some compromises here.

The idea of line output jack placement is interesting indeed, but it would be hard to implement, because first of all, the keyboard's connection probably isn't suitable for analog signal, and also the keyboard will be thin and tilted, like on Surface 3, so there's no "back" part of it. It will only have a thin connector (like 1mm) to connect to the bottom of the tablet.

I understand your concerns about graphics power, but we can't put a dedicated GPU in it because it would vreatly sacrifice portability and battery life. Even mobile GPUs still consume well above 20W, and compared to the 4.5W of our processor, it would probably shorten it five times and leave us with a pathetic 2h battery life. I would like this fetaure too, but apparently it's impossible with today's technology, unless you want a 1.5cm 1.5kg tablet, or the battery life I mentioned.

Putting an AMD processor in a tablet is out of the question even eith their newest products, because Intel does much better in terms of power efficiency. And a 15W processor is by any means impossible to cool passively. For example, the higher-end models of Acer Iconia W700 experience heat throttling pretty quickly even with a fan. The CPU there is 17W. Now imagine that being cooled passively - honestly, i can't

And lastly, no, we have never ever even considered bundling any DSP with the tablet, as people can get it elsewhere for free if they want and it would be a waste of money.

I think your suggestions were great, and I wanted to tell you that we would really appreciate having you in our community. What would you say if I invite you to join http://eve.community?

But I would also like to bring this thread to its roots. Your suggestions are very helpful in bringing the best of the best to "normal" customers, but you can rest assured that we have a very passionate community that will make sure nothing gets missed or done wrong. However, we have a clear lack of audiophiles there, even though everyone agrees they want better sound than usual laptops. People know what they want, but they don't have the technical knowledge.
So, I created this thread to find the best way of attracting specifically audiophiles, after we've taken care of the general appeal of this device, of course.


So to make things simpler:
Take the best laptop or tablet that you know of. Or just imagine your dream device. Let's assume everything else is perfectly perfect. But what would you say about the audio part of it? What should it be like? What are the features, apart from noisy DAC that make regular laptops so bad and that could be improved?

 

[Audio Addict]

I do not think you can just pick a DAC chip and think it will be the answer. What is the objective for sound quality as well as are you expecting it to drive headphones. What headphones? A big difference if it is IEM or full size as to the output needed. Are you expecting something along the lines of the AQ Dragon or maybe the LH Labs v2. Are you considering a balanced headphone out?

What I have read does not seem to focus on the audio.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[pauliunas]

I do not think you can just pick a DAC chip and think it will be the answer. What is the objective for sound quality as well as are you expecting it to drive headphones. What headphones? A big difference if it is IEM or full size as to the output needed. Are you expecting something along the lines of the AQ Dragon or maybe the LH Labs v2. Are you considering a balanced headphone out?

What I have read does not seem to focus on the audio.

Just my 2 cents.

Yes, I understand that. And actually, that's why I came here. The goal is to please as many people as possible. I understand we can't please everyone, but my thoughts are that IEMs are often used on the go, and this tablet, well, it's 12" in size and weights almost a kilogram. So probably people will use full-size headphones. On the other hand, non-audiophiles often buy only one pair of IEMs, and not headphones. To sort this out, I could make a poll about this in the community.
But the question right now is as follows: how can we please the highest number of audiophiles possible? I suggested having a good amp for one category, and then line-out for those who don't like the amp. But maybe there's something more? And what's important except DAC and amp? I've heard complaints about noise coming from USB power rails - would that be fixed if we supplied power to the DAC straight from the battery?

Alao, what do you think about the speakers inside this tablet? I know we can't make them hi-fi but I want them at least not to hurt my eyes and not to sound ultra-tinny like most laptops do. Right now we're thinking about something like that newest iPad with quad speakers. People say it sounds good, but I don't know. Do you know any examples of a good-sounding tablet or have any ideas how that could be achieved?

And I really appreciate your input. Feel free to join our community, we need some fresh minds there, hehe

 

[yay101]

Honestly as long as it doesn't do any stupid BIOS tricks so I can install Linux and it doesn't cost ridiculous surface money I'd be interested right now. I've never heard any portable device that sounded "good" the closest I have found is my girlfriend's yoga 2, and even then it's passable for TV but I wouldn't subject myself to music from it.

 

[pauliunas]

An Ubuntu edition is also being considered. So it would be even cheaper as you won't pay for a Windows license if you don't want it.
I understand that there aren't many tablets with good sound nowadays, but we're here to make something different. What is the most frustrating thing for you, and how could it be fixed? We want to make it at least decent.

 

[yay101]

Here's a super simple list that I consider whenever I look at a device.

Work me:
1. Large bright screen.
2. Some sort of Linux so my environment doesn't change regardless of where I am.
3. A fantastic keyboard. No not some ****ty cover keyboard that passes as typeable. I want a GOOD keyboard. The people who make them for cube make amazing chicklet boards that are very nice and responsive with a great mechanical feel. They are however large/heavy by comparison, but for professionals who need a keyboard even at $100 extra I would pay for a great keyboard.
4. Sound quality, if I need to bring an ODAC and amp with me it's one more thing to carry.
5. Battery. I expect 7+ hours screen on time. Minimum. No excuses.

Personal use:
1. Great screen when used vertically for reading.
2. Sound quality.
3. Accessories, eg USB c host port is a must, and a cable so I don't have to buy one.
4. Build quality, as a work machine I don't care if a corner makes noise when pressed or if a port is a bit funny. Those are secondary. But as a personal device it needs to be completely free of "defects", even after 6 months of use.

Things I didn't list simply means it's a non issue for me. Like the speakers issue. I'm never far from great headphones or speakers so this doesn't bother me.

 

[pauliunas]

Here's a super simple list that I consider whenever I look at a device.

Work me:
1. Large bright screen.
2. Some sort of Linux so my environment doesn't change regardless of where I am.
3. A fantastic keyboard. No not some ****ty cover keyboard that passes as typeable. I want a GOOD keyboard. The people who make them for cube make amazing chicklet boards that are very nice and responsive with a great mechanical feel. They are however large/heavy by comparison, but for professionals who need a keyboard even at $100 extra I would pay for a great keyboard.
4. Sound quality, if I need to bring an ODAC and amp with me it's one more thing to carry.
5. Battery. I expect 7+ hours screen on time. Minimum. No excuses.

Personal use:
1. Great screen when used vertically for reading.
2. Sound quality.
3. Accessories, eg USB c host port is a must, and a cable so I don't have to buy one.
4. Build quality, as a work machine I don't care if a corner makes noise when pressed or if a port is a bit funny. Those are secondary. But as a personal device it needs to be completely free of "defects", even after 6 months of use.

Things I didn't list simply means it's a non issue for me. Like the speakers issue. I'm never far from great headphones or speakers so this doesn't bother me.

This is great, but once again, let's bring it back to audio:
I assure you that all of the above points will be there. So what about the audio part of it? What specific features would you want in this tablet? I mean DAC chip is not the only part. What are the other reasons why you take your external equipment everywhere? Is therr background noise? Is the amplifier not powerful enough? We need to know what are the problems that bother people the most. Otherwise we will end up with yet another "well, they tried" type of product. Like the keyboards you talked about.
By the way, we can't promise a wonderful keyboard as we're making a 5mm thick one, but it will surely be much better than the Surface keyboards. Another, thicker keyboard with extra battery, ports and much better feel is considered as a future accessory, it would be released sometime early next year. The tablet itself with "default" keyboard will have preorders open in the second half of this summer and final release will follow in september/october. So you'll have to wait a few months until further accessories are developed and released (Eve is a small team so they can't work on multiple projects effectively)

 

[yay101]

Really only 3 issues to do with audio, noise while charging from dirty power (cheap sources in cars), weak (or none at all) amplification and thirdly ****ty DACs, especially when they pair a DAC with bad roll-off with low power output so the low end disappears even more.

 

[pauliunas]

Really only 3 issues to do with audio, noise while charging from dirty power (cheap sources in cars), weak (or none at all) amplification and thirdly ****ty DACs, especially when they pair a DAC with bad roll-off with low power output so the low end disappears even more.

Great! I transfered that to the team, let's see what they have to say I didn't know about the charging problem, but it could probably be solved by isolating the DAC's power input from the charging port or by including a separate voltage regulator for it.
I really understand the frustration of low output, even at max settings some devices are bately audible, especially with harder to drive headphones. Do you think we should have an amplifier that can drive 100+ ohm headphones, or would that be overkill? Also, wouldn't that reduce the quality with lower impedance headphones?
And don't worry about the DAC itself - Eve said they will use one of the top-tier chips from Cirrus Logic, so there's little to be afraid of. Although I don't understand what you meant by roll off - maybe I'm just too noob for this :$

But thank you for your input. Also feel free to join the community and have your voice heard in all aspects of the device. And to get notified in the first place when preorders begin

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I only gave Best Buy as an example. But the whole point if having the tablet in retail stores is to have it available locally worldwide. So Eve will do their homework and choose whichever networks have most coverage. For example Euronics in the EU. I don't know any other US stores so I just named Best Buy as an example

Again, the whole point of this is to have worldwide retail and warranty.

 
Great to hear, will have this laptop in my shortlist. I might have never had any laptop break anything within the warranty period but I'm one to think there's always a first time, and if I do get this, it'll be a bummer if this is the first one. Something relatively minor like the dock connection to the keyboard but then necessitating shipping it to another country is not a situation I'd want to be in.
 

The weight doesn't really need to be balanced because we're getting an adjustable kickstand, and for the keyboard we have 2 possible variants: a thin, around 5mm fabric keyboard, or a thick one with battery and ports. But since we have so many USB ports on the device itself, and the battery will last 10 hours, we are leaning towards the thin one. It would be ultra-light, with a flexible connector, but could also be used wirelessly, because sometimes it's uncomfortable having the keyboard glued to the screen. It's very important not to make the device clunky, so we're kinda going the Microsoft Surface way, but with a better quality keyboard (not so flimsy).

 
I'd go with the thicker keyboard that has a battery as opposed to just a cover with a keyboard. First,that increases the operating time. Second, as someone who's looking into a hybrid coming from a 15.6in laptop and an iPad2, it's more of eliminating the iPad than the laptop, ie, what's more important to me is to have something as close to a laptop as possible, but in certain situations, work as a tablet. Like leave the thicker keyboard in my hotel room and have the tablet section in my waterproof messenger for when I need to browse with anything larger than my smartphone. Or basically work with it as a laptop, then retire to bed with the tablet section leaving the keyboard on the desk, to read ebooks (or PDFs of academic journals) with my legs under a blanket.
 
Also, nice to have a way to use the keyboard wirelessly, that way I can position it with the kickstand and then there's less of a need for the design to take into account the physical movement on the keys rocking the tablet screen (ie the real reason, even more important than slow Lightroom rendering, why I haven't made the switch yet).
 

You made a great point in jack positioning and I will transfer it to the community tomorrow. I think it would be very irritating to have cables flopping around when the jack is on the upper part, on the other hand, people will also want the USB ports at the bottom, so we will probably have to make some compromises here.

The idea of line output jack placement is interesting indeed, but it would be hard to implement, because first of all, the keyboard's connection probably isn't suitable for analog signal, and also the keyboard will be thin and tilted, like on Surface 3, so there's no "back" part of it. It will only have a thin connector (like 1mm) to connect to the bottom of the tablet.

 
I'd want the USB port on the tablet at the bottom too, but I'll need only one on the opposite (hopefully right) side. This way I can use even a bulky USB drive, or a cable to a portable HDD, and it won't be sticking out at the top either. As a tablet it's primarily oriented in landscape mode anyway, so the speakers can be on the top section (if you're including stereo speakers), and when used in portrait mode for reading, it can go either way up anyway given the accelerometer (ie I can use it dock connector to the right so my sweaty left hand holding it doesn't keep brushing it, and earphone out down, right angle plug outwards from me).
 
I can do without the audio through the keyboard though, I just brought it up in case the dock might at some point be more like what Samsung uses on their tablets.
 
Quote:

I understand your concerns about graphics power, but we can't put a dedicated GPU in it because it would vreatly sacrifice portability and battery life. Even mobile GPUs still consume well above 20W, and compared to the 4.5W of our processor, it would probably shorten it five times and leave us with a pathetic 2h battery life. I would like this fetaure too, but apparently it's impossible with today's technology, unless you want a 1.5cm 1.5kg tablet, or the battery life I mentioned.

Putting an AMD processor in a tablet is out of the question even eith their newest products, because Intel does much better in terms of power efficiency. And a 15W processor is by any means impossible to cool passively. For example, the higher-end models of Acer Iconia W700 experience heat throttling pretty quickly even with a fan. The CPU there is 17W. Now imagine that being cooled passively - honestly, i can't 

 
I just wanted to see if Zen-Polaris APU might be an option in the future, as I can see how I'll use it with minimal throttling. If it uses the tablet back shell as a heatsink in more ways than the Macbook does with the keyboard shell, ie a copper block with heatpipes (just like those fanless HTPC chassis with the block that you have to stick on with TIM), then not only does it transfer more heat to the shell, but also leaves more of that surface area exposed to the air than the Macbook keyboard. Also, as hot as the climate might be over here, when I use anything more intensive than MSWord and Chrome (ie if I'm working off a battery I don't even run MediaMonkey), I'm not just in an A/C room, but the air is blowing right at the table where my computer is. Hotel rooms have the desk near the vent for example, and our offices, smaller private workspaces each have a window-mount A/C, so I orient my desk so it blows at my computer. If I'm at a cafe running on battery power I wouldn't be editing photos (much less playing any games), I'm probably cramming something on Word (at worst, PPT). My friends who have those huge-vent MSI/Asus laptops have similar use habits as well, and I'm on a regular form factor, 15.6in APU-powered laptop. 

That said, given the clunkiness of other hybrids barring that flagship Surface with the GTX 960M in the keyboard, if the Eve was available now it would most likely come down to between that and those 0.75in thick APU-powered Samsungs. Still depends on what I can give up, and in the end, the audio section isn't the primary consideration, but being able to run Lightroom at decent speed vs having a tablet with longer battery life that can do more than the usual tablet (that I can read with in bed). 
 
The thing is, if I have to go around without my Ibasso D-Zero (which is pretty slim) or I don't want the cable clutter (I have a short 6in USB cable though), I'd likely be using my IEM anyway, and I specifically chose this for two important specs apart from comfort and sound. At 32ohms the impedance isn't taxing mainstream devices (ie not too low to reduce damping factor) and at 125dB sensitivity it isn't taxing the output power either. If I'm packing a larger headphone a compact DAC-HPamp is likely to have some space between the earcups anyway. The output can be cleaner and tighter on the Eve on an IEM that isn't hard to drive, but for the most part what I'd be appreciating with it is the hardware volume buttons (being a tablet primarily) instead of touching or clicking at the corner. That said, my desk at home will have a Grado on it, so the better current delivery (over integrated audio chips) will be appreciated.
 
That said, if those external GPU enclosures were a lot cheaper, I'd probably be thrilled with the Thunderbolt option. I was following a thread before on a guy trying to prototype a DIY version, and I was planning on basically making one that was more like a test bench - ie, exposed GPU. And then use a fanless graphics card like the R7 250 Ultimate (or mount a large aftermarket cooler on a GTX 950, and have the A/C pointing at it). The only remaining downside to it really is that while I can get the GPU power to make Lightroom and HDR merging faster, I will realistically only be able to use it at home anyway, where I still have a desktop for gaming because of the CPU needs of Total War (and newer titles are getting more work on the CPU nowadays). But hey if I can have the Thunderbolt external GPU set-up for around $250, I'd probably get it for the heck of it. At least I can have this in my bedroom, since I have the main gaming rig in another room always (ie I am more likely to work at night and just roll over to bed, plus I don't want to get up in the middle of the night to pee while knocking over steering wheels and such).
 

But I would also like to bring this thread to its roots. Your suggestions are very helpful in bringing the best of the best to "normal" customers, but you can rest assured that we have a very passionate community that will make sure nothing gets missed or done wrong. However, we have a clear lack of audiophiles there, even though everyone agrees they want better sound than usual laptops. People know what they want, but they don't have the technical knowledge.
So, I created this thread to find the best way of attracting specifically audiophiles, after we've taken care of the general appeal of this device, of course.

 
A simple DAC-HPamp circuit basically is what's needed. Take an Audioquest Dragonfly apart for example, miniaturize it further to fit in a tablet. 24/96 compatible DAC chip (I'm not a fan of high res, but Dream Theater for example only has 24/96 for FLAC download, and the rest of the industry might follow suit - ie just make the master copy available), maybe get one that won't need output op-amps, then feed the signal into amplifier output stage op-amps with low power consumption.
 
Perhaps a direction that can be explored is to partner with an existing audio gear manufacturer like Fiio or Ibasso to design the audio module. And personally those will be more attractive to me than a screaming yellow laptop with audio by Bang and Olufsen. If the partner is Meier Audio I'd really know what I'm getting in terms of a DAC-HPamp circuit with very low noise and relatively high output power (well, OK, maybe not this one given it has to share the battery) and then the audio section will be an even higher up on the reasons why I'd go for it.
 
Still, it's not so much that I'm trying to mainstream the device, only that despite audiophiles being known for ridiculous things (like strapping together a player, DAC, and amplifier) when it comes to laptops there might be other considerations.
 
Quote:

I think your suggestions were great, and I wanted to tell you that we would really appreciate having you in our community. What would you say if I invite you to join http://eve.community?

 
I'll sign up ASAP, right now it isn't loading properly but I'm not sure if it's like FB with Chrome (I dont use Firefox except for FB, and just only to access that, as Mozilla's adblockers are worse than airport security in comedic flicks) or my internet connection cutting in and out.
 

So to make things simpler:
Take the best laptop or tablet that you know of. Or just imagine your dream device. Let's assume everything else is perfectly perfect. But what would you say about the audio part of it? What should it be like? What are the features, apart from noisy DAC that make regular laptops so bad and that could be improved?

 
Venue 11, all features and accessories (like that dock with six USB ports) but 12.5in, and with an audio section that, at the very least, is similar to the Audioquest Dragonfly or Geek Out.