[hkpants]

I've been a self-proclaimed audiophile for a couple of years now and I've always considered buying a DAP for portable use, but I've never been able to pull the trigger. For the past couple of years, I've been using Bluetooth amps (like ES100) or phone dongles (Nextdrive Spectra X) for portable use. For you DAP users, is there a significant sound quality increase by using a DAP over a bluetooth amp/dongle? I'm aware that wired>wireless, but is the SQ difference audible (say between the ES100 vs a Cayin/Fiio DAP)? Are there other use cases other than portable use (since I do have an amp at home, I don't see myself using a DAP at home)? Just for context, I'm almost exclusively an IEM user, so I don't have high power requirements.

 

[Raketen]

IDK if I would expect a "siginificant" increase in sound quality & depends on your tolerances.
For me? Assuming good quality source files locally stored on good quality DAP (or possibly streaming app on an android DAP):
(caveat: these are just vague impressions, I haven't spent much time doing close comparisons).

• w/ lossless source vs BT to ES100? I prefer DAP but this can be acceptable in a lot of situations.
• w/ lossy source files vs BT? This can be relatively tolerable but DAP seems to have fairly clear advantage.
• vs USB dongle? I don't have any small USB dongles other than ES100, which from BAL is a pretty decent source. I think a good quality mid-price DAP (say 300-600, like my Opus#1... my A55 more of a toss up/preference thing) can sound better but not necessarily "significantly" (again, personal tolerances). A lot of percieved differences might have as much to do with amp section/headphone compatibility & personal biases rather than source quality.

Some people do like to use DAPs non-portably as a transport for their home systems, particularly for DAPs with non-USB output options which are sometimes claimed to be superior (I have no idea).

I'm a lifelong habitual DAP user though. For the DAP-curious it might be worth a try if the cost isn't burdensome, but I wouldn't recommend them to anyone who isn't particularly interested or otherwise content with phone/dongle or wireless setups.

 

[artpiggo]

Not quite.

 

[hkpants]

• w/ lossless source vs BT to ES100? I prefer DAP but this can be acceptable in a lot of situations.
• w/ lossy source files vs BT? This can be relatively tolerable but DAP seems to have fairly clear advantage.
• vs USB dongle? I don't have any small USB dongles other than ES100, which from BAL is a pretty decent source. I think a good quality mid-price DAP (say 300-600, like my Opus#1... my A55 more of a toss up/preference thing) can sound better but not necessarily "significantly" (again, personal tolerances). A lot of percieved differences might have as much to do with amp section/headphone compatibility & personal biases rather than source quality.

I'm a lifelong habitual DAP user though. For the DAP-curious it might be worth a try if the cost isn't burdensome, but I wouldn't recommend them to anyone who isn't particularly interested or otherwise content with phone/dongle or wireless setups.

Thanks for the insight! I'm definitely "DAP-curious" but I'm just hesitant to pull the trigger because of costs.

 

[buonassi]

I tend to find you get what you pay for provided you understand the concept of diminishing returns and how it applies to audio gear.

Rule still applies when comparing dongles to daps.

 

[hkpants]

I tend to find you get what you pay for provided you understand the concept of diminishing returns and how it applies to audio gear.

Rule still applies when comparing dongles to daps.

Well diminishing returns is the name of the game over here. I'm more just wondering if people view it is a worthwhile jump or not. I've been tempted for a long time and I'm just not sure if I should.

 

[buonassi]

Well diminishing returns is the name of the game over here. I'm more just wondering if people view it is a worthwhile jump or not. I've been tempted for a long time and I'm just not sure if I should.

If you have IEMs or headphones that can resolve the differences between an entry level dongle and a good DAP, I'd say yes, it's worth the jump (subjectively).

In my case, I had AK/JH Angie, CA Jupiter, 64 U10, and Oriolus Mk2 when I made the jump to a proper DAP - and the 'aha moment' was pretty clear to me. You typically gain precision, finesse, and stage when you get a better source. I can recall my reaction when I went from the Fiio X5iii to the Fiio X7ii - both DAPs - but very noticeable jump in quality to my ears. Here are some of the most noticeable changes for me (in general, not just Fiio) - note that not all are perceived as 'better', but is a preference:

1. Ability to resolve lower level detail in a recording - such as the ambience or space it was recorded in.
2. Depth - the ability for sounds to be tracked along a Z axis now - no longer just X,Y
3. Layering - the ability to discern gradations along the X,Y,Z axis improves / also layering of instruments even in a similar space improves (IE Cymbal crashes don't interfere with a tom strike and drum resonance)
4. Attack/Decay - More 'musical' sounding daps will tune (via group delay and harmonic content) certain frequencies to be slower or faster than others. This can introduce a very refined sense of decay in the bass, for example. Or it can produce the romantic mids that AK daps are known for. Usually, you don't get these colorations with lesse equipment.
5. Dynamics - the levels between loud and soft are more enveloping and emotionally engaging. This is true of macrodynamics - the dynamic range in an entire piece of music, as well as the Microdynamics - how well the individual articulations within small sections of music swing up and down.

please note that not all of the above are present with every DAP upgrade - and to get all 5, you're looking at TOTL 3K territory. It's just a summary of what you may discover as you chase the dragon's tail. Personally, I've heard the SP1000 and really thought it to be far superior to the SR15 - but I just can't justify that kind of spend on a source (yet anyway!). I'm sure my audiophilia nervosa will be the victor eventually.

 

[Hanesu]

Great topic to discuss! I was actually thinking of opening a similar thread here! Can`t you rename it to something like "The DAP vs BT thread" (so more people might join this discussion)?

I was actually a DAP user for many years....but when the age of streaming started, I made the switch to BT for a while...because DAPs were really unusable for streaming some years ago and BT DACs like the ES100 better (SQwise) than I expected.

Recently I switched back to a DAP to see what has changed.
To be honest - though streaming properly works now I am still inconclusive if I will become a long term DAP user again. Because I am really missing the flexibility of my BT devices and am not sure whether the very small plus in SQ is worth loosing this convenience (and of course the extra money) again.

Think about the following:

Let`s say you have a pair of earphones for 500$ and another 500$ to spend. I am convinced that in most cases you will get a greater SQ if you buy a very good 900$ earphone that you use with your 100$ ES100 than running your 500$ earphones with a 500$ DAP. Get the point? Both ways cost you a 1000$ but earphones are so much more important in the audio chain than the source if you only pay attention to SQ.

Another thing to consider is file format. Let`s say you are, like me, a big streaming fan. I mostly use Apple music which is in AAC 256. If you listen to AAC via BT, with ES100 you will almost have the same SQ as wired (AAC is compressed anyway and does not get further compressed through BT). One could argue the difference is more noticeable with, let`s say Tidal Hifi - but honestly, I am through with this, too. The difference is super small and even not there with every track (more depending on the recording). After reading some scientific research about that a high number of people (even trained ears) cannot distinguish reliably between a high number of AAC and FLAC, I realised it is not just my ears.

Of course in a perfect world with having an unlimited amount of money to spend, one could always optimise SQ "in every regard", but since most of us don`t live in such perfect world, spending money on earphones/headphones is the wisest money spent. IMO.

 

[gleanfont]

The Depth and dynamic of the sound seem to be working okay for me.

 

[Hanesu]

The Depth and dynamic of the sound seem to be working okay for me.

What are you referring to? ES100?

 

[hkpants]

If you have IEMs or headphones that can resolve the differences between an entry level dongle and a good DAP, I'd say yes, it's worth the jump (subjectively).

In my case, I had AK/JH Angie, CA Jupiter, 64 U10, and Oriolus Mk2 when I made the jump to a proper DAP - and the 'aha moment' was pretty clear to me. You typically gain precision, finesse, and stage when you get a better source. I can recall my reaction when I went from the Fiio X5iii to the Fiio X7ii - both DAPs - but very noticeable jump in quality to my ears. Here are some of the most noticeable changes for me (in general, not just Fiio) - note that not all are perceived as 'better', but is a preference:

I wish there was a way for me to demo DAPs so I could see if I get the same experience you do. Thanks for the insight.

 

[Hanesu]

I wish there was a way for me to demo DAPs so I could see if I get the same experience you do. Thanks for the insight.

I just realised you have a pretty amazing IEM lineup and also Micro iDSD (sorry, did not have a look at your signature before)! So what do you think by yourself comparing them from your ES100 to Micro iDSD? I think SQ differences of ES100 compared to a DAP will be basically a very similar experience, just small tonal differences between the different DAP models!

 

[hkpants]

Let`s say you have a pair of earphones for 500$ and another 500$ to spend. I am convinced that in most cases you will get a greater SQ if you buy a very good 900$ earphone that you use with your 100$ ES100 than running your 500$ earphones with a 500$ DAP. Get the point? Both ways cost you a 1000$ but earphones are so much more important in the audio chain than the source if you only pay attention to SQ.

Another thing to consider is file format. Let`s say you are, like me, a big streaming fan. I mostly use Apple music which is in AAC 256. If you listen to AAC via BT, with ES100 you will almost have the same SQ as wired (AAC is compressed anyway and does not get further compressed through BT). One could argue the difference is more noticeable with, let`s say Tidal Hifi - but honestly, I am through with this, too. The difference is super small and even not there with every track (more depending on the recording). After reading some scientific research about that a high number of people (even trained ears) cannot distinguish reliably between a high number of AAC and FLAC, I realised it is not just my ears.

Of course in a perfect world with having an unlimited amount of money to spend, one could always optimise SQ "in every regard", but since most of us don`t live in such perfect world, spending money on earphones/headphones is the wisest money spent. IMO.

I definitely hear you. I've spent way more on my IEM journey then I have on my source/amp/dac etc. journey. I also mostly stream, but in my case it's Tidal. I would definitely require an android DAP, but my hesitation comes from the fact that a lot of users seem to encounter software issues with android DAPs. If the SQ or QOL difference is significant, I would consider dealing with the issues; I suppose that's why I made this thread haha. I guess I technically have the budget for a high-end DAP, I just don't know if I want that or another IEM. I guess I want to be convinced? Always have that yearning for better sound quality, even if doesn't exist.

Anyways, thanks for the insight, I appreciate your response.

 

[Hanesu]

I definitely hear you. I've spent way more on my IEM journey then I have on my source/amp/dac etc. journey. I also mostly stream, but in my case it's Tidal. I would definitely require an android DAP, but my hesitation comes from the fact that a lot of users seem to encounter software issues with android DAPs. If the SQ or QOL difference is significant, I would consider dealing with the issues; I suppose that's why I made this thread haha. I guess I technically have the budget for a high-end DAP, I just don't know if I want that or another IEM. I guess I want to be convinced?

Anyways, thanks for the insight, I appreciate your response.

You are very welcome!

Hmmm...do it like me! Just buy a middleweight DAP blindly and compare for some weeks (or months). Worst case scenario is you lose maybe 150$ reselling it. If you like using a DAP and find the differences significant you can still get a more expensive one later...

Always have that yearning for better sound quality, even if doesn't exist.

Oh, I know so much what you mean! (And everybody here in this forum!)

 

[KarlAgathon]

Hiby R6 Pro