[fuseboxx]

unfortunately, critics are useless...

also... the difference b/w LRP and OOT on that site is HUGE.

 

[donunus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Camper /img/forum/go_quote.gif By this time, rock was dead.

hahaha I always hear that statement being said. Doesn't saying that only mean that youre getting old?

 

[fuseboxx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by priest /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...critics are more trustworthy than a site like that, which tends to reinforce itself in an endless feedback loop.

I'm not sure I understood this correctly; but if I did, I think it could be an interesting discussion point.

The way I understand it, it's like saying that highly-rated albums tend to stay highly-rated because their existing reputation already influences future voters to skew their ratings upward... and the same thing goes for those albums rated poorly.

But isn't this applicable to pretty much everything and not only to "a site like that"? Even with critics... if a reputable publication gives a new album a glowing review, it will also have some effect on other critics who will soon be putting out their review and the rest of the music loving population out there.

As far as I'm concerned, I'd trust a site like that for music or a site like IMDB for films rather than how a significantly fewer number of critics would opine.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Black Album

 

[userlander]

I actually put more stock in pro critical opinion -- taken collectively, at least -- than a bunch of random listeners/fans on the internet. Preference or judgment is largely subjective, but also in some important respects it isn't, and let's face it, a lot of people don't really have a wide background in different kinds of music or even music history, theory, etc. to always be able to make informed judgments.

That's not a slam at anyone really, because everyone is coming at things from a different angle, which is fine. But you know, some 17-year old metal head judging "Fables" better because it's "darker" and "cooler," etc. and not liking OOT because they can't appreciate the musicality of "shiny happy people" b/c of the lyrics, or because Losing My Religion was overplayed like a bazillion times tends to skew things too much to be a reliable indicator of overall quality, imo. You have to be able to evaluate things more objectively to be a good critic, and that is a different skill-set than just listening for enjoyment.

 

[dongringo]

I just like what I like, regardless of what the critics think. After all, critics judge according to a critical criteria. That's why I picked two completely different albums than what was listed.

 

[iamoneagain]

For me,
Smashing Pumpkins - Gish

Also liked this as a running up:
Matthew Sweet - Girlfriend

And even:
Live - Mental Jewlery

 

[sno1man]

Screamadelica by Primal Scream- influence still being widely heard today arguably even more than Nevermind and Loveless though probably far less well known in the general public.

 

[SoupRKnowva]

im honestly surprised that only one person even mentioned Gish by the Smashing Pumpkins. And im appaled that Rust in Peace by Megadeth hasnt gotten one single mention, im sitting on a tie between those two.

 

[bong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by priest /img/forum/go_quote.gif Again, what are you basing this statement on? In order for you or he to be right, you have to prove your point. It's not true simply because you say so.

There's also All Music Guide:
allmusic ((( R.E.M. > Discography > Main Albums )))
Murmur *****
Automatic for the People *****
Document ****1/2
Out of Time **1/2

There's also Trouser Press Record Guide, which has been one of the most respected record guides when it comes to Indie and Alternative music:
TrouserPress.com :: R.E.M.
"Adding keyboards, strings and horns to adjust the style settings even further, R.E.M. (also employing touring member Peter Holsapple, post-dB's/pre-Continental Drifters, on guitar and bass) challenged audience expectations and themselves further with the ambitious, overproduced (again by Litt and the band) and inconsistent Out of Time. The numbers that work—"Radio Song" (with guest rap by KRS-One), the folk-rocking "Losing My Religion," the uplifting "Shiny Happy People" (with Kate Pierson of the B-52's chiming in), the acoustic "Half a World Away," "Me in Honey"—effectively progress from (or at least uphold) Green's forthright example and are almost enough to carry the weight. The other half of the album, however, drags with material that is either too weak to withstand gummy layers of gratuitous instrumentation or falls prey to gimmicky concept experiments. "Low," "Endgame" and "Country Feedback" are blandly negligible; the happyface pop of "Near Wild Heaven" and the sung/recited "Belong" are ineffectual in their willful incongruity. Out of Time has too many important songs to ignore, but it's a dismal reminder of what happens when too many people tell creative musicians how great they are."

There's also this page set up by the members of an REM forum at remweb.net, which is run by real REM fans as opposed to critics:
R.E.M -.
Automatic for the People #1
Murmur #2
Life's Rich Pageant #3
Out of Time #7

I personally like Out of Time, I think it's a great pop record regardless if it was made by REM or not, but it seems as if records like Automatic for the People and Murmur still has universal praise, and speaks to people at a deeper level.

 

[limpidglitch]

I've never been much of a fan of Pearl Jam, Talk Talk, Metallica, U2 or Soundgarden, but between the remaining four it was a tough call.
Probably should have been a tie between BSSM and Loveless, but I voted for the latter.

 

[userlander]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bong /img/forum/go_quote.gif There's also Trouser Press Record Guide, which has been one of the most respected record guides when it comes to Indie and Alternative music: TrouserPress.com :: R.E.M. "Adding keyboards, strings and horns to adjust the style settings even further, R.E.M. (also employing touring member Peter Holsapple, post-dB's/pre-Continental Drifters, on guitar and bass) challenged audience expectations and themselves further with the ambitious, overproduced (again by Litt and the band) and inconsistent Out of Time. The numbers that work—"Radio Song" (with guest rap by KRS-One), the folk-rocking "Losing My Religion," the uplifting "Shiny Happy People" (with Kate Pierson of the B-52's chiming in), the acoustic "Half a World Away," "Me in Honey"—effectively progress from (or at least uphold) Green's forthright example and are almost enough to carry the weight. The other half of the album, however, drags with material that is either too weak to withstand gummy layers of gratuitous instrumentation or falls prey to gimmicky concept experiments. "Low," "Endgame" and "Country Feedback" are blandly negligible; the happyface pop of "Near Wild Heaven" and the sung/recited "Belong" are ineffectual in their willful incongruity. Out of Time has too many important songs to ignore, but it's a dismal reminder of what happens when too many people tell creative musicians how great they are." ... I personally like Out of Time, I think it's a great pop record regardless if it was made by REM or not, but it seems as if records like Automatic for the People and Murmur still has universal praise, and speaks to people at a deeper level.

I don't think anyone has ever claimed that Out of Time is a better record than Murmur! Or even AFP.

As for the Trouser Press review, I think the moody "Low" is one of the best songs on the album, and Belong is more than competent, too. It's not at the level of LMReligion or Half a World Away, but it's definitely not "dismal."

I also think it's strange that the review can talk about the "willful incongruity" of songs like Belong and Low, and yet mention Losing My Religion in the same breath with Radio Song and Shiny Happy People. Those two songs are about as incongruous as you can get with LMR -- as is Me In Honey, which I think is actually closer in sense and structure to Belong than to LMReligion.

Also notice what they say there about Fables and Life's Rich Pageant. They pretty much pan both albums (rightly so, probably), except for a few notable standouts like Driver 8 and Fall on Me. I don't think you can say they rate those albums higher than OOT, unlike those "fan" sites, like in the other link to "Allmusic." LRP and Fables over Green? Probably not, unless you've been smoking way too much green.

 

[sno1man]

Quote:

Originally Posted by userlander /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think anyone has ever claimed that Out of Time is a better record than Murmur! Or even AFP. As for the Trouser Press review, I think the moody "Low" is one of the best songs on the album, and Belong is more than competent, too. It's not at the level of LMReligion or Half a World Away, but it's definitely not "dismal." I also think it's strange that the review can talk about the "willful incongruity" of songs like Belong and Low, and yet mention Losing My Religion in the same breath with Radio Song and Shiny Happy People. Those two songs are about as incongruous as you can get with LMR -- as is Me In Honey, which I think is actually closer in sense and structure to Belong than to LMReligion. Also notice what they say there about Fables and Life's Rich Pageant. They pretty much pan both albums (rightly so, probably), except for a few notable standouts like Driver 8 and Fall on Me. I don't think you can say they rate those albums higher than OOT, unlike those "fan" sites, like in the other link to "Allmusic." LRP and Fables over Green? Probably not, unless you've been smoking way too much green.

Interesting discussion. Fables is my favorite REM album but arguably that doesn't mean it's their greatest album even to me. It's definitely their most "roots" or southern album. I love driver 8, feeling gravity's pull, cant get there

I'd argue that Murmur is their greatest album simply because it came out of nowhere (though chronic town, the ep that proceeded it has a lot of the same elements) and sounded like nothing else.

Out of time is probably their most accessible album and 'losing my religion" is certainly one of their greatest songs.

That all being said, where you came in has a lot to do with it. For many, because of "religion" it was their entree in to REM and its a great album in that context. But the friend that introduced me to REM believes that they were already on the downhill slide (though monster redeemed them a bit)

 

[priest]

bong: Thanks for pulling all that together. I still don't completely agree with the statement (see the Spin guide, the 1991 RS guide, and the Rough guide), but I now think it's generally supportable. It seems the album has fallen alot in critical esteem over the last fifteen years or so.

But I also agree with everything my man userlander had to say on the subject, and still believe it belongs on the OP's list as one of the best rock albums of 1991, to bring this thread back to its main subject.

 

[john11f]

twas a good year indeed. hard to decide and ended up voting for pearl jam - ten.