A few questions regarding the amp world.
Jan 13, 2010 at 3:16 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 6

928GTS

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I've been at Head Fi for a small while and one thing I've always noticed is that when people come posting of a problem with their respective amplifier and then list off the symptoms they're having nearly immediately someone will reply telling them to "bring it to a tech" or "if you don't know how to do that then you have no sense even looking at the inside of your amplifier".

I read these things and I find myself quite perplexed because I'm looking at someone who is wishing to start their journey into the world of diagnosis and repair and instead they are being turned away and told to bring it someone who "knows better". The problem is that these people that "know better" got their start through discovery and figuring things out through learning lessons. Many of these old hands cut their teeth on their parent's record/radio console in the living room or perhaps bought some surplus parts and made their first amplifier.

This was back in the day before modern grounding practices as well as general electrical safety really took effect in regards to isolation transformers,grounding methods(floating ground anyone?)and other odds and ends. They learned from being shocked and from putting their hands where they probably were not supposed to go. The thing was that they learned from these experiences and thus were likely not to repeat them again because they knew what would happen. Once you get shocked once you tend to remember it for quite some time. They learned to fix and diagnose circuits from taking apart circuits,studying them and learning what made them tick,how to make them better and how to repair them when they went wrong.

With the Internet today's aspiring repairfolk needn't worry as much about electrical hazards due to the fact that their is a vast array of articles on general electrical safety as well as repair methods on a wide range of electronic devices. They can read up and arm themselves with the knowledge necessary to tackle the job at hand with thoroughness and safety. Even with this knowledge the wonderful process of learning will still take place as they go through their current project and progress through whatever tasks they wish to perform on it as they will figure out what methods work best for them and through this they will become unique. Everyone does things different and this is one stage where that distinction is made.

It is understandable that there are some projects that should be attempted as a beginner due to the complexity or level of voltages involved. However I feel that a wide range of amplifiers that we discuss here on these forums would make excellent candidates for a Head Fi'ers first upgrade or repair project. I would also state that it would be in good practice to first be competent at the skills of soldering, circuit diagnosis and measurement as well as the basic understanding of the circuit they wish to work. Once again all of this can be learned from the Internet or,if one is lucky,they may have a friendly electrically inclined "elder" who will gently guide them in the right direction.

In conclusion to this I feel that people should not be shied away from working on their amplifiers because if we tell everyone to "go see a tech" for their problems then what will happen when all of the "old hand" techs pass away. Who will inherit their knowledge? Who will pick up the craft and keep it moving forward as a relevant part of today's modern technological world? Learning is made through discovery....

My other issue stems from the concept of buying matched tubes and the prices paid for such items. I feel that too much attention is paid to the importance of matched tubes and making sure they are of the same brand,same date code,etc,etc. Ensuring that these variables are the same means that the price will rise accordingly and I feel that very similar results could be offered from the purchase of tubes in far larger quantity that may not meet their criteria.

I often peruse the offerings of "bulk" auction tubes on eBay and am quite pleased to see 6,10,12 or more of lets say 12AX7's being offered for around $50-70 or so. People may complain that their brands do not match but in reality many of the tubes that you see that wear American brand names are most likely rebranded tubes that were manufactured by the large tube companies such as RCA,Sylvania,Tung Sol,etc. The end result is that these tubes are actually closer in physical construction than they might seem at first glance.

I feel that in some high end applications having an accurate match may bring that last few percent of an improvement. However I really do not feel that having someone who is a beginner to audio who,lets say,has just bought a Little Dot 1+,should shell out $40+ or more just for two tubes when they could perhaps instead buy 6 tubes at the same price and have more fun mixing and matching,find their own favourite combinations and seeing the differences between brands.

At this stage the goal should be firmly placed on fun,discovery and learning. Perhaps later when that user upgrades to a more substantial amp then tube matching might become of greater importance as their listening setup with headphones and amp becomes more demanding and the respective "tolerances" will become tighter and thus require a greater level of electrical accuracy.

Don't worry so less on getting that one "must have" tube set and instead root around and go for things that people may have overlooked. Often the best discoveries come from finding the treasure under the rock that has yet to be overturned.
 
Jan 13, 2010 at 4:47 PM Post #2 of 6
I totally agree with you, the remedy for this is not paying any attention to what others say. It is better to learn by buying a book or do a course and then you try to do projects by yourself. Or, read in silence and do your own thing. The problem you bring here is not the only one, worst is when those who knows reject you when you ask something to them, because, "their time is valuable". I have known such people ...
 
Jan 13, 2010 at 4:54 PM Post #3 of 6
I agree with you, however, there is plenty of encouragement to be found in the DIY Forum. The general consensus there is usually to start picking at a CMoy and then move up from there.

You casually mention getting shocked as not that big of deal, but it really is. When you're dealing with 300 or more Volts on a B+ rail, you could be easily killed. How would you feel if you told someone to "go for it" and later found out they died? It makes sense for people to start with a CMoy and work from there.
 
Jan 13, 2010 at 7:34 PM Post #4 of 6
Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I agree with you, however, there is plenty of encouragement to be found in the DIY Forum. The general consensus there is usually to start picking at a CMoy and then move up from there.

You casually mention getting shocked as not that big of deal, but it really is. When you're dealing with 300 or more Volts on a B+ rail, you could be easily killed. How would you feel if you told someone to "go for it" and later found out they died? It makes sense for people to start with a CMoy and work from there.



I wasn't trying to put across that vibe. I've been hit by 450V before and it *hurt* and also made my entire arm go numb for about 10 minutes. I was lucky that it probably just went through my arm and down my leg and that I was able to pull my hand away quickly.

I'll never forget that experience and that has taught me to proceed with extreme caution around high voltage. I was getting at that when I stated "Once you get shocked once you tend to remember it for quite some time." and "They can read up and arm themselves with the knowledge necessary to tackle the job at hand with thoroughness and safety.".

High voltage is nothing to be trifled with,you need to do all of your work in slow motion and watch where your hand is at all times(and make sure the other one is behind your back). It took me a long to gain the courage to work on high voltage circuits but working on them has taught me to just take your time and take it slow.

Some people will never feel comfortable working with such levels of voltage and that is totally fine. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that and I have a lot of respect for those people for knowing where their limits are and not trying to overstep them just because someone told them to.
 
Jan 13, 2010 at 8:43 PM Post #5 of 6
The problem is that the first time you get hit can be the last time. Even if you live, you might end up with serious burns, nerve damage, or other problems.

I don't shy away from risk - I enjoy guns and motorcycles in addition to high voltage power supplies. But I've been through formal training for all of those, use all the safety gear, and make an effort to learn as much as possible about how these work, what the risks are and how best to counter the risk.

Someone who hasn't taken a serious look at electronics before who takes a screwdriver to an amp is looking for trouble.

A better way to go about this would be to tell the person with the problem that they can go to a tech or, if they're interested in DIY, some instructions on where to go from there.

I have no problem with people working on stuff once they know how to minimize the risks. I think that's great and wish more people would. But when you have something as dangerous as electricity, people need to know what they're doing.
 
Jan 13, 2010 at 9:30 PM Post #6 of 6
Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The problem is that the first time you get hit can be the last time. Even if you live, you might end up with serious burns, nerve damage, or other problems.

I don't shy away from risk - I enjoy guns and motorcycles in addition to high voltage power supplies. But I've been through formal training for all of those, use all the safety gear, and make an effort to learn as much as possible about how these work, what the risks are and how best to counter the risk.

Someone who hasn't taken a serious look at electronics before who takes a screwdriver to an amp is looking for trouble.

A better way to go about this would be to tell the person with the problem that they can go to a tech or, if they're interested in DIY, some instructions on where to go from there.

I have no problem with people working on stuff once they know how to minimize the risks. I think that's great and wish more people would. But when you have something as dangerous as electricity, people need to know what they're doing.



I agree and I did say in my original post that before someone decides to undertake a project such as servicing a tube amplifier they should really take the time and go through the basics of soldering,proper electrical safety and procedure before embarking on such a task. I should have made myself more clear and said that in addition undertaking smaller and less dangerous projects would also be of benefit.

The problem is that when they take it to a tech they get their product back,pay the money and then get a relatively useless little slip that says "Misc. Electrical Repair" on it that tells them nothing of what went wrong and how to fix it in the future should it or something similar go wrong.

I feel giving them instructions on where to go next would be the best bet and if at all possible to seek out the counsel of someone who has been at the trade for a long time to keep a watchful eye. Case in point I wanted to do a calibration and some general repair on a vintage radio I had but I had never used a frequency generator before. I was fortunate enough to know one of the members in my university's amateur radio club and he was able to guide me through using a frequency generator as well as how to service and align this radio. Now in the future should I ever need to perform such a task I will be well informed.
 

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