[samandhi]

@SilverEars I don't find it at all like KZ response. KZ is very peaky in the upper mids and treble in a way this isn't.



The S12 does have more upper mids and treble and closer to Harman but it's smooth and I don't find it fatiguing. I find KZ very fatiguing. I think a lot of this comes down to the wonkiness in the KZ treble response, it's not just the amount, it's the way it oscillates up and down.



Maybe also something about planars, I found the Hifiman Ananda quite bright when I first got it, but not at all fatiguing.

Timeless is below below the Harman IE target for pinna gain but most IEMs are. I usually find IEMs that actually match Harman in that area too much. It's closer to Crinacle's IEF target in this area, which I usually prefer to Harman.

Most popular IEMs are closer to IEF than Harman. Stuff like the Moondrop Starfield, Aria, Blessing 2 / Dusk, Variations, S8, ThieAudio Oracle, Clairvoyance, Monarch, Monarch Mk2, Dunu SA6, Shuoer EJ07M, MEST Mk2, these are all below Harman in that region and closer to IEF.

It's hard for me to think of a popular IEM that actually hits Harman IE; the Galaxy Buds+ did but I found them shouty.

The S12 though I don't, I actually find that really good. It is brighter than the Timeless, but it's not fatiguing, it's not too much. They just sound great.

@sebek I have the Ananda and the Timeless, the Timeless I think is maybe a little more V shaped but if you like the Ananda sound signature you could well enjoy it. Key difference, it's an IEM and won't have the remarkable spaciousness of the Ananda soundstage, but that's inherent to the form factor. Using wide bore tips attenuates the bass a bit and I think improves the soundstage. I liked the results with JVC Spiral Dots and currently using Whizzer EasyTips SS20 "Sound Field" which for me work really well with the shallow fit and seem to help with broadening the soundstage.

I have to agree with your preference with a bit of a twist. I like neutral, but I also like musical. I have found that IEF curve with the lower end boosted a touch (about halfway between the Timeless, and the target on your graph, to be pretty close.

I am not a fan of Harmon at all, though it is not utterly horrible. The two things that I don't like in tuning (that is frequently overdone) is super boosted bass (especially mid-bass), and way overcooked pina gain. For me if it is overdone, it not only makes it shouty/shrill but also makes the overall sound signature sound tonally off.

 

[tinyman392]

@SilverEars I don't find it at all like KZ response. KZ is very peaky in the upper mids and treble in a way this isn't.



The S12 does have more upper mids and treble and closer to Harman but it's smooth and I don't find it fatiguing. I find KZ very fatiguing. I think a lot of this comes down to the wonkiness in the KZ treble response, it's not just the amount, it's the way it oscillates up and down.



Maybe also something about planars, I found the Hifiman Ananda quite bright when I first got it, but not at all fatiguing.

Timeless is below below the Harman IE target for pinna gain but most IEMs are. I usually find IEMs that actually match Harman in that area too much. It's closer to Crinacle's IEF target in this area, which I usually prefer to Harman.

Most popular IEMs are closer to IEF than Harman. Stuff like the Moondrop Starfield, Aria, Blessing 2 / Dusk, Variations, S8, ThieAudio Oracle, Clairvoyance, Monarch, Monarch Mk2, Dunu SA6, Shuoer EJ07M, MEST Mk2, these are all below Harman in that region and closer to IEF.

It's hard for me to think of a popular IEM that actually hits Harman IE; the Galaxy Buds+ did but I found them shouty.

The S12 though I don't, I actually find that really good. It is brighter than the Timeless, but it's not fatiguing, it's not too much. They just sound great.

@sebek I have the Ananda and the Timeless, the Timeless I think is maybe a little more V shaped but if you like the Ananda sound signature you could well enjoy it. Key difference, it's an IEM and won't have the remarkable spaciousness of the Ananda soundstage, but that's inherent to the form factor. Using wide bore tips attenuates the bass a bit and I think improves the soundstage. I liked the results with JVC Spiral Dots and currently using Whizzer EasyTips SS20 "Sound Field" which for me work really well with the shallow fit and seem to help with broadening the soundstage.

Humans tend to not volume match based on a single frequency alone, so aligning based on 1k is a standard, but it’s also kind of generic and arbitrary of a spot to align at. If you drop the KZ down a 2-3 dB there is a lot of overlap between the two in terms of the measure tonality and it might be more in line to how a person might volume match the two IEMs to one another.

 

[fablestruck]

I was using the Fiio LC-RE cable. I think the bass is a little tighter with the Fiio cable and upper mids and treble are a little sharper. Overall it seems like the Ace tilts the Timeless slightly warmer versus the Fiio but I don't want to say the bass quantity is increased with Ace. I think it's just more of a balance shift. And to my ear, it's not like the Ace rolls off the treble or anything like that. It just seems a bit smoother up top which could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the listerners preference. Just a bit warmer, smoother presentation. Again, this is compared to the Fiio cable. I was using a Tripowin Altea cable which is all OCC. Despite being all copper, I think that one falls in the middle between the Fiio and Ace but that's from memory.

thanx for the info.
Lately, I had mine on a Shure cable and as a DAC I used either the Mojo (laptop/audirvana studio) or my LG V50 (UAPP) which had a softer rendering to FR and bass compared to the LC-RC on M11 4,4 balanced output. The latter, while overtime did present to me as well a somewhat tighter response on the bass, has a discernable effect on presentation as detail retrieval and soundstage is concerned. My guess is this has to do with M11s balanced port so I ordered the Fiio RC-ATHB to see how it would sound.

​

 

[blorg]

I have to agree with your preference with a bit of a twist. I like neutral, but I also like musical. I have found that IEF curve with the lower end boosted a touch (about halfway between the Timeless, and the target on your graph, to be pretty close.

I am not a fan of Harmon at all, though it is not utterly horrible. The two things that I don't like in tuning (that is frequently overdone) is super boosted bass (especially mid-bass), and way overcooked pina gain. For me if it is overdone, it not only makes it shouty/shrill but also makes the overall sound signature sound tonally off.

I want a bass boost as well, when I say I prefer IEF neutral I am specifically referring to the pinna gain region, from 1kHz up.

IEF neutral isn't meant to be a preference curve as such, Crinacle described it as what sounds "neutral" to his ears. He likes a bass boost himself, and IEMs he has retuned (like the Blessing 2 Dusk), he added more bass. I'd take Harman bass over IEF neutral. My ideal bass is probably the Dusk, but I have a few IEMs that come quite close to Harman bass (Moondrop Variations, Galaxy Buds+/Buds2) and I do appreciate that as well. A bit more mid-bass over Harman I think sounds more natural though, which is what you get in the Dusk.

 

[blorg]

Humans tend to not volume match based on a single frequency alone, so aligning based on 1k is a standard, but it’s also kind of generic and arbitrary of a spot to align at. If you drop the KZ down a 2-3 dB there is a lot of overlap between the two in terms of the measure tonality and it might be more in line to how a person might volume match the two IEMs to one another.

It's the peakiness I think rather than the strict amount. Have you heard the ZSN Pro X? I have it, to my ears it's very harsh in treble. Many KZ have this signature trident peak pattern. The Timeless is bright, but it's nowhere near as harsh as a KZ. The S12 has even more, but it's not harsh like the KZ either. Newer KZs like the CCA CRA or the ZEX Pro/CRN they have significantly smoothed over this traditional trident, and they sound much better for it.

 

[tinyman392]

I want a bass boost as well, when I say I prefer IEF neutral I am specifically referring to the pinna gain region, from 1kHz up.

IEF neutral isn't meant to be a preference curve as such, Crinacle described it as what sounds "neutral" to his ears. He likes a bass boost himself, and IEMs he has retuned (like the Blessing 2 Dusk), he added more bass.

Prior to all the different "neutral" curves coming out, DF neutral was used as the "neutral" curve. However, even Etymotic doesn't use the DF neutral as their target (and they call it a target, not a new neutral curve) since they found that as music got louder (loudness wars louder) the frequency balance in songs ended up exaggerating the highs and distorting them a bit) so they had to tame this region a little bit. I think over the years, they've also moved their target curve down past 1k to adapt for this. To add, when compared to the DF neutral curve, the Harman also does a similar thing as the Etymotic target (but furthers it) above the 1k region taming it a bit. I believe the IEF target does this even further. One thing I did feel is that as music got louder, it not only pushed the perception of highs, it reduced perception of bass, so both were needed to be done eventually. The original Harman curve addressed this IMO. However, the loudness wars seem like they are turning a tide for the better (not completely fixed, but still in the better direction) with more recordings coming out that seem to be recorded much more quietly containing more dynamic range.

I personally like the original Harman headphone target and don't like the IEM Harman target for IEMs. The subtle 5-ish dB bass boost is just about perfect for my tastes while 10 dB is just way too much. However, even the Harman headphone target has been increasing its bass since its inception. This is one thing I do like about the IEF target, it hasn't changed since it was created, it did remain "standard" in some form. Just saying Harman curve has become somewhat ambiguous as it could mean a 5dB push in the bass (headphones), a 7-8 dB push in the bass (headphones), or a full one 10 dB push in the bass (for IEMs) in tandem with a DF style pinna gain that is relaxed a few dB; I forget how relaxed (in dB) exactly, but it is relaxed.

One thing to keep in mind is that what is neutral to one ear is going to vary from person to person, but on top of that it's going to also depend to what they're listening to.

 

[tinyman392]

It's the peakiness I think rather than the strict amount. Have you heard the ZSN Pro X? I have it, to my ears it's very harsh in treble. Many KZ have this signature trident peak pattern. The Timeless is bright, but it's nowhere near as harsh as a KZ. The S12 has even more, but it's not harsh like the KZ either. Newer KZs like the CCA CRA or the ZEX Pro/CRN they have significantly smoothed over this traditional trident, and they sound much better for it.

I will admit I haven't heard them, but I was replying strictly on the plot evidence used to say the KZ and S12 aren't alike. The plots you showed really didn't show this that well if they were matched at a different frequency. Like I stated, if you dropped the KZ a few dB, there would be a lot of overlap. Yes, it is more peaky, and this is shown in the plot as well (even after matching them up better) as there is an additional spike in the ~5k and ~16k regions.

 

[10000days]

These would probably be my favorite earphones ever if their soundstage was 25%-50% wider. Are there any established mods available for the Timeless yet?

 

[DrewVz]

These would probably be my favorite earphones ever if their soundstage was 25%-50% wider. Are there any established mods available for the Timeless yet?

Yeah, buy a KBEAR Rhyme cable and CP100+ tips, and your soundstage will be super wide.

Get a XINHS 4-core graphene cable and some Azla Crystal tips and your soundstage will be super deep and tall.

Enjoy.

 

[Nick24JJ]

Yeah, buy a KBEAR Rhyme cable and CP100+ tips, and your soundstage will be super wide.

Get a XINHS 4-core graphene cable and some Azla Crystal tips and your soundstage will be super deep and tall.

Enjoy.

Are you referring to these?

4-core cable
Tips

 

[kadinh]

Are you referring to these?

4-core cable
Tips

yes but not the TWS (true wireless) tips, get the standard ones. i made that mistake...

 

[Nick24JJ]

yes but not the TWS (true wireless) tips, get the standard ones. i made that mistake...

These?

 

[DanielListening]

yes but not the TWS (true wireless) tips, get the standard ones. i made that mistake...

I made that same mistake.

 

[DrewVz]

These?

Those look right. Azla Crystal Standard. The XINHS cable from Aliexpress is their part number "Earphone Cables-011". 4-core graphene alloy silver plated wire.... Used to be around $30, now it looks like they've raised the prices a bit. Honestly, if I were just starting out with the Timeless, I would just get this cable and these tips and be done with it. You'll be within 5-10% of its maximum capability. For under $300 you'll have a setup that is better than $500+ IEMs easily. To my ears, there *IS* a better cable and tip combination, but the tradeoffs might not be what others are looking for. The 4-core and Azla combination will appeal to more people and is a significant step up from stock that everyone can appreciate.

BTW, XINHS is one of the best sellers I've found on Ali. I've bought many cables from them and they've always arrived quickly and with great construction. I haven't had such good luck with other sellers, but XINHS is top notch.

 

[DrewVz]

I'm going to give it a more detailed audition this weekend with a bunch of vocal-centric albums. If you've got the Crystals, and you have a 4-core graphene cable, give it a try.

Already started on some of my favorite vocal albums, Illenium - Awake and Seven Lions - Ophelia. I feel pretty confident in saying that this is the best IEM setup I've ever heard for vocals so far. I used to consider the Theiaudio Oracles to be the best in the business for vocals, but this setup is just plain better. Incredibly clear, balanced vocals with just the right amount of background instrumental support. I won't say it's perfect, but I will say it's the best I've ever heard.

I sold my Oracles a few months ago, and until I tried this combination, I had totally given up on these albums because they just didn't sound right with the Timeless, regardless of any cables or tips I tried previously. But the 4-core graphene with the Crystal tips somehow is a match made in heaven. I've never heard the vocals so forward and clear before with the Timeless.

Just wanted to gush a bit here. As I said, it's been a long time since I've been able to enjoy these albums since I sold my other IEMs. Frankly, I was stunned when I heard this particular combination for the first time. I knew it sounded special, but after listening to a few albums tonight I realized just how good it actually is. I'm curious if anyone else has tried this setup and what they think of it.