[7Sevin]

Hey!
 
I'm in the market for a modest desktop/around-the-house setup. I've got approximately $500 to spend on the whole setup and here's what I've been looking at:
 
CANS
 
- Sennheiser HD650's at my top-range cans, which run at $313 on Amazon and BHPhoto right now. They sound like a pretty good fit for me, the only con that I find a bit discouraging is what most people describe as a more restricted soundstage compared to other cans in it's price range, even below. Also, even at $313, that's not leaving much left over for the powerful amplifier I'd need to drive its 300 ohm impedance. 
- Beyerdynamic DT880/990's. From what I've read, these are great cans for the half the cost of the HD650's. The most alluring factor to me is the wide soundstage most people talk about. 
 
AMPS
 
- Schiit Valhalla 2. If I were to go with either the Beyer's or the Senn, this amp seems like a pretty good fit due to it's great power output at high impedance. It's also a tube amp, and I feel like it'd be a lot of fun to roll tubes for it, though I don't know if that would end up eating up a lot of my budget or something... maybe solid state would be a better option? Also, its base price is $349, which pushes over my budget if I were to go with the Senns. 
 
I'd obviously love to be able to check out some cans pre-purchase at some music stores or something, but there are actually no stores in my area that stock anything better than some low-end Sennheisers. I have no friends or family that have any cans I'd be interested in, let alone amps or DACs. Speaking of DACs, should I be sure to work one into my budget? Are they really that important, or can I get by OK with a good set of headphones and proper amplification? I have no other components either, just a late model iMac.  
 
If anybody needs any more information, don't hesitate to ask!

 

[billybob_jcv]

I might be wrong, but I think if I were you, I would buy the HD650 and the Schiit Modi+Vali. I *think* the Vali has enough juice for the HD650 (but it might be worth asking that question in the HD650 thread).

This gets you the headphones you want, and a good amp to get you started. The only thing you are really giving up is tube rolling, but based on the excellent homework you have already done, I'm betting your head-fi journey is just beginning.

 

[7Sevin]

Thanks for the suggestion! It would be nice to be able to roll some tubes, but if my budget will not allow it, then my budget will not allow it and that's that.
 
I will say I am not very experienced, but I have done some research and I think the best course of action is just to go ahead and spend the money now so I don't end up spending a lot more later working up to the same setup when I inevitably become addicted
 

 

[Nap-Chiang]

You definitely need a DAC to feed analog signal to your amps, use a jack to rca cable will not work.  billybob_jcv's suggestion "Schiit Modi+Vali" is good. I also will suggest you buy a dac that has integrated amp; even through 300 ohm is a lot of imp, but both hd650 and dt880 are not power hunger headphone. Actually both headphone's max input power is less than 250mw, so some dacs are good enough to drive them. 
Some my suggestions other than Schiit Modi+Vali:
Hifiman EF2A (32-300 ohm, $160)      Nuforce Icon HD (up to 600 ohm, $200)
Or you can even get a portable Dac/Amp Fiio E17 & E18 both less than $180, the recommended imp is up to 150 ohms, but I think they will still works.

 

[Phishin Phool]

FWIW - I have DT9990  (250 ohm) and they are probably my most favorite headphone of all I have owned and the most comfy by far. My Denon d2000's are closely behind. I have paired them with a tube amp which really is quite great - tube rolling can enable you to change the sound somewhat if you like which is a great feature but double edged as you can spend $$$$ chasing the perfect tube(s) if you like.
The soundstage on the 990's is quite large and paired with a Sunrise II amp from garage 1217 which at $250 already built by Jeremy (vs the $199 kit price) which can save you $100 bucks on the valhalla (check it out at garage1217.com). I have the II version but the 3 version adds even a few more features. The amp is powerful enough to drive my 250 ohm can's to deafening levels at 50% volume and carries a 5 year warranty just like schiit. The biggest difference IMO are that the schiit has 2 gain settings while the sunrise III has 3 different output impedance settings. That and the looks. Also only 1 tube to change on the sunrise makes it cheaper to roll. I have found a tube I like and settled on it (a really nice PSVANE 12AU7 )
I don't have a HD650 but either that or the hd600 are on my 'want' list and hopefully my next to buy (either that or a new modi 2 uber /magni2 stack). Either way you go with your first high end set of headphones I think you will be in audio nirvana. I don't know if you have a guitar center near you but they carry Beyerdynamic headphones and I just went over with an ipod and asked if they had a set of 990's I could demo and they were very accomodating I sat and listened to those and some AKG for about 30-45 minutes then made a choice . They had some sennheisers but mostly cheaper low end stuff.
Just my 2 cents - don't fret just take the plunge and enjoy.
 
EDIT:
Regarding DAC's - to me they are like the icing on the cake. Not absolutely necessary but can add some nice finishing touches (you will need one somewhere but a dedicated one isn't always necc.). Ultimately it depends on how you are feeding your amp - if from a pc then one is probably necessary to a) get it into an analog r/l signal and b) pc's typically have a lot of noise but if from a digital player/phone/tablet then I just use a "Y" splitter from the headphone out stage and it sounds just fine. For my blu-ray player I just use the r/l line out and in my case for for my pc I actually use my HDMI into my AVR and then feed my amp via analog line out's so I don't have an external line out.  ALso fwiw I have had to Fii dac/amp combos and have ended up trading them both toward additional headphones. The first I traded for a Fostex t50rp modded can and the 2nd along with that fostex for my Denon.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
CANS
 
- Sennheiser HD650's at my top-range cans, which run at $313 on Amazon and BHPhoto right now. They sound like a pretty good fit for me, the only con that I find a bit discouraging is what most people describe as a more restricted soundstage compared to other cans in it's price range, even below. Also, even at $313, that's not leaving much left over for the powerful amplifier I'd need to drive its 300 ohm impedance.

 

The sounstage on the HD6x0 cans might be smaller, but the placement of each instrument is accurate and clear enough. Sometimes what people describe as a "wide" soundstage I find later to mean that the extreme left and right are far out there, but then between those points and the center, it's like the those were only pushed out farther to the flanks but the area around the center isn't really any wider in any direction vs the Sennheisers.

 

That said you can always just get the Q701. It's not as wide as the K701 but it has a little bit more bass, and the soundstage is generally a little larger (and no less precise; actually, it's even more precise).
 

  AMPS
 
- Schiit Valhalla 2. If I were to go with either the Beyer's or the Senn, this amp seems like a pretty good fit due to it's great power output at high impedance. It's also a tube amp, and I feel like it'd be a lot of fun to roll tubes for it, though I don't know if that would end up eating up a lot of my budget or something... maybe solid state would be a better option? Also, its base price is $349, which pushes over my budget if I were to go with the Senns. 

 

Instead of rolling the tubes, just get a DAC like the Modi, that way you'll be feeding the amp with a relatively cleaner, fixed, line level signal. Still over budget but I'd say it's better to save up for all that.

 

[7Sevin]

Thanks for the comments so far, very helpful!

Phishin, there is a guitar center within 2 hours of me, but I've been there and their selection is sad. No AKG's or Beyers, just low end Senns.

Protege, your comment about the soundstages makes total sense, if that's the case then accurate placement would obviously be more important to me than width.

I honestly can't really fathom the sound I'll hear from any rig, so I doubt a little extra width or clarity between the Beyer or Senn would make much difference to me. The best headphone I ever had was a Denon AH-D1100, which actually broke not even 3 months into daily, normal use. The Sennheiser HD202's I've had since then were almost as good as those looking back on it, and I paid far less.

About the Modi and Vali; my fear is that I'll get wistful for better units once I experience them and understand what exactly the difference can be with good ones, so I'll end up wanting to buy other, more expensive units anyway. However, it may sound too good coming from the very very simple setup I have now to even think of auditioning better equipment, so that may never happen.

Also, Phishin, you mentioned some different connection setups you have like the HDMI to AVR; how does that work exactly? That's one thing in not sure of, do I need to get the USB version of whatever (if at all) DAC I buy, or can I use some other cables like that to set it up on my desk. And when I'm using my phone, you mentioned y-splitters. I really don't know much about cables, could you enlighten me a bit?

 

[billybob_jcv]

Thanks for the suggestion! It would be nice to be able to roll some tubes, but if my budget will not allow it, then my budget will not allow it and that's that.

I will say I am not very experienced, but I have done some research and I think the best course of action is just to go ahead and spend the money now so I don't end up spending a lot more later working up to the same setup when I inevitably become addicted

 

Silly noob! You are already addicted - you just don't know it yet. No matter what you buy, there is no end game in head-fi. Before you have put your first scratch on the HD650, you'll start wondering what the HD800 sounds like, or what the LCD-2 sounds like, or what custom IEMs sound like, or....

 

[Phishin Phool]

Ok - as far as connections go . Depends on your source - if it is a pc then unless your pc has analog out you need some sort of dac . This leaves optical out or coax out (unlikely) then you are looking at usb out and if so you then need something to get it to analog. My video card (gpu) in my HTPC/Gaming rig has HDMI out that does both audio and video - that goes into my AVR. I then use the internal DAC of my AVR and use an analog (rca cable) output to feed my tube amp. Mostly though when at my avr I use my audio speakers and not headphones. typicaly my headphone use is from phone/tablet/ipod etc and for that I use one of these (they come in various flavors and qualities mine is a little nicer than one pictured but I think you get what I mean)
 
http://www.showmecables.com/product/3-5mm-Stereo-Mini-Plug-to-Dual-RCA-Jack-Adapter-6-IN.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cse&utm_campaign=932&zmam=49733141&zmac=5&zmas=1&zmap=932&gclid=CJnlmJ3bycICFcdj7AodHFkAtQ
 
then run rca cables to my amp. This utilizes the internal dac of my player. For my blu-ray/disc players I have analog out (either 7.1 mutlichannel outs or 2ch analog outs) which I use.
 
For portable use I usually use either my Pioneer SE-A1000 or Denons both are low enough resistance to be powered by my phone or tablet - they don't get "real" loud and could benefit from an amp but they get to comfortable listening levels 
 
Regarding soundstage - the biggest difference IMHO is usually between open and closed headphones and since both the beyer and senn are open the differences are typically quite nuanced to most people. FWIW I find the the imaging in the beyers to be exquisite. The biggest difference IMHO is that Beyers tend to have more of a V shape to the sound with slightly emphasized bass and treble while sennheisers are typically more flat and neutral. I do notice on some tracks that if I use a solid state amp with my beyers on occasion the treble can be a little shrill and fatiguing but with a tube amp the warmth tames it "just right". To me that is a bigger difference and more easily noticeable than soundstage and imaging. A lot also depends on what type of music you listen to - dubstep is different from classical is different from electronica or modern pop etc. Remember that as you escalate the diffferences are often quite subtle and trivial (and sometimes even placebo or in your head). 
 
As far as dacs go - I think they are the the least worrisome part of the equation (IMO they should be neutral and not color the sound at all)- I tend to accept what I get from a particular item usually in a separate dac it comes down to the implementation. I have been hearing a lot of good about the Aune T1 MK2 as well which supposedly has a great dac implementation and a "decent" amp but not sure what it is rated to drive. 
 
I think here is how many voyages go - you either have a friend who has a good/great set-up and you start by mimicking theirs closely or go to some sort of canjam or meet and sample a bunch of different ones (which you are unable to do) or you research the best you can and make a blind buy which will typically get you in the ball park. Then depending on your personality you are either satisfied and that is that or you identify things that you like a lot with your current set-up and things you don't like or wish were improved and try and upgrade/side-grade/exchange .... chasing the rabbit down that hole.
 
For your first ever set and coming from low end I think you really would be happy and impressed by either Beyers or Sennheisers. Think about whether or not tubes are something you really want and if so then try and find what fits your budget. Another consideration is whether or not this needs to be on the go portable (I assume considering tubes it does not so I would avoid a fiio as you can do better for stationary set-ups) If tubes don't matter either a schiit modi/magni stack may just be right for you although if you don't mind having to have a dac with it's own power supply the modi 2 uber for $150 has optical, digital coax and usb - quite a steal and really everybody seems to think that to get a much more noticable improvement in a DAC you are escalating price significantly.
So -- If you want maximum flexibility Modi 2 uber $150 and a magni $99 (or if you want 'more power' the magni 2 uber at $149) puts you at $250-$300. If you need a dac and amp and also need more than just USB the MODI 2 uber really is the only way to go IMHO.
 
If you only need a usb DAC then like mentioned the Aune T1 MK2 (built in DAc and tube amp) ~$185, O2+ODAC ~$300 , Hifiman EF-2a (DAc+ tube amp) $150
 
food for thought

 

[Phishin Phool]

Also If I were you I would strongly consider this 
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/746578/big-bundle-mad-dog-aune-t1-dac-amp-amperex-7308-tube-fiio-e11-silver-plated-copper-interconnect-and-cable-adapter
 
 
$300 - fixes all your worries - everything you need and if not happy you can replace what ails you or sell it for what you paid andd you come out $200 ahead.
 
I would jump on this though cause it won't last.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

About the Modi and Vali; my fear is that I'll get wistful for better units once I experience them and understand what exactly the difference can be with good ones, so I'll end up wanting to buy other, more expensive units anyway. However, it may sound too good coming from the very very simple setup I have now to even think of auditioning better equipment, so that may never happen.

 

I personally have been immune to just plain speculation on what could be better, much less blowing a lot of money on it; if anything, there was a time when I spent on some amps and DACs and they all just sounded "wrong" until I found the perfect amp. I don't think those Schiits, even at the $100 or so price point, have any glaring flaws that you will not be able to overlook. Heck, my amp now has only one real but very impractical deisgn flaw: there is no external switch for the gain settings. Doesn't matter though since I don't own more than one reference headphone anyway, and the only other one I have is an IEM for when the headphone isn't a practical choice.

 

[7Sevin]

What I'm thinking now is buying the Modi + Magni Ubers, then buying both the Beyer DT880 and Senn HD650 from Amazon, breaking them in for a couple weeks and then making my decision. The Magni and Modi sound like a good combo to drive either pair or whatever else I may buy, and for some reason I have a very strong attraction to Schiit so I kinda wanna buy my amp/dac from them anyway. 
 
I'll use Amazon's Christmas return policy to return either the Beyer or Senn and see how that works out. 
 
Phishin, thanks for all the links and info. If I were to get the Modi Uber, I can just run USB out of my iMac and into the DAC, then RCA from the DAC to the amp and 3.5mm from there to my phones right?

 

[Phishin Phool]

  What I'm thinking now is buying the Modi + Magni Ubers, then buying both the Beyer DT880 and Senn HD650 from Amazon, breaking them in for a couple weeks and then making my decision. The Magni and Modi sound like a good combo to drive either pair or whatever else I may buy, and for some reason I have a very strong attraction to Schiit so I kinda wanna buy my amp/dac from them anyway. 
 
I'll use Amazon's Christmas return policy to return either the Beyer or Senn and see how that works out. 
 
Phishin, thanks for all the links and info. If I were to get the Modi Uber, I can just run USB out of my iMac and into the DAC, then RCA from the DAC to the amp and 3.5mm from there to my phones right?

Yep- I think that is a splendid approach as well. The schiit stack should drive either of those no problems and the modi is regarded as a very good DAC. That would be the recommended hook-up as well. From the amp you just plug in your phones( I assume that is what you meant by 3.5mm from there)

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  Phishin, thanks for all the links and info. If I were to get the Modi Uber, I can just run USB out of my iMac and into the DAC, then RCA from the DAC to the amp and 3.5mm from there to my phones right?

The Magni uses a 6.3mm socket; most headphones come with an adapter or a plug that is purely 6.3mm. AKGs use the screw-on adapters, and some Sennheisers like the HD600 come with this really slim plug that some people think is just a 6.3mm thanks to how compact it looks (you can actually pull it off and there's a 3.5mm under it).

 

[7Sevin]

 
Yep- I think that is a splendid approach as well. The schiit stack should drive either of those no problems and the modi is regarded as a very good DAC. That would be the recommended hook-up as well. From the amp you just plug in your phones( I assume that is what you meant by 3.5mm from there)

OK, great. Now what about portable options, like in bed with my phone. Since both of those cans are high impedance, would I need to get a separate portable amp to drive it, or do you think the iPhone could be enough to power them straight out?

The Magni uses a 6.3mm socket; most headphones come with an adapter or a plug that is purely 6.3mm. AKGs use the screw-on adapters, and some Sennheisers like the HD600 come with this really slim plug that some people think is just a 6.3mm thanks to how compact it looks (you can actually pull it off and there's a 3.5mm under it).

Oh ok, thanks for the info. So either way it'll work out, I've got like 10 of those.