[Tadgh]

This thread was based on helping me work out my multimedia setup, but budgets grew and I was convinced to work out a better solution. (Damn it Head-Fi, that was my wallet )
 
So I'm gonna DIY stands for positioning, and these speakers need to be flexible - because they might end up in a number of different places. I'm gonna buy an SW150 Sub, and SMSL SA-50 amp, and do my best to acoustically treat the room they're gonna be in with carpets, hanging heavy fabric, and non flat ceilings.
 
So I need a pair of flexible speakers, preferably they'd be pretty (Seen the Walnut Zensor 3s? Unnfff)
 
Any relevant solutions, discussions, or arguments are welcome! I have a fairly ecliptic music taste, listening to all kinds of rap, trap, classical, metal, indie, techno, vaporwave, reggae, jazz whatever else (a lot really, I'm missing a lot), and love a nice looking pair of speakers.  

 
you can also try to convince me that buying a sub is a bad idea, but I'm not sure I'll budge.

 

[cel4145]

Wharfedale Diamonds are definitely a value for a passive speaker in the UK. You might also see if you can find any of the older B&W 601s. Used of course, since they have been discontinued for many years. Since B&W is a UK brand, there might be some around at good prices.

I'm not a fan of SMSL because they historically have issues with reliability. For a t-amp, I would look at Topping or, if they ship to the UK, Indeed. Those are better quality brands, typically for not substantially more.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Check the price of the Wharfedale 9.1+solid standmounts vs just getting a Diamond 9.4, sometimes the cost of a solid speaker stand plus a standmount speaker puts you near the price of the floorstander anyway. If anything, the standmount and stand are easier to repack and sell, otherwise consider paying a little bit more to get the standmount. You can hold off the sub if you have to, and in some cases you might need to raise the sub off the floor depending on room acoustics.

 

Either way, mass load them with sand - even floorstanders have some provision in the cabinets (usually you need to unscrew the plate holding the speaker binding posts and crossover), just check with the manufacturer how much is the maximum since you might have to put that in the same airchamber as the speakers.

 

If you do go with floorstanders, here's a powerful T-amp: 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Topping-TP60-Tripath-Digital-Amplifier/dp/B00898T31W/ref=pd_sim_sbs_23_19?ie=UTF8&refRID=0HC464P7ZNTEEPDEW2YW

 

Alternately, look around for local audio forums, and in case you have space for them look for used NAD amplifiers, especially the 304, 310, and 3020 (not the newer D3020). I had the 304 before and they can drive practically anything with dynamic drivers, right up to a pair of Dynaudio Focus floorstanders and B&W CM-series with multiple bass drivers.

 

[Tadgh]

Wharfedale Diamonds are definitely a value for a passive speaker in the UK. You might also see if you can find any of the older B&W 601s. Used of course, since they have been discontinued for many years. Since B&W is a UK brand, there might be some around at good prices.

I'm not a fan of SMSL because they historically have issues with reliability. For a t-amp, I would look at Topping or, if they ship to the UK, Indeed. Those are better quality brands, typically for not substantially more.

So I had heard! But I'm certainly willing to look around, would these B&Ws be worth a little extra? Depending on what kind of improvement they would give to the setup I could possibly scrape some more money up to pay for them, not an awful lot but I'm willing to stretch
 
Thanks, I had been recommended the SMSL on a budget basis and just kinda ran with it, I'm glad to know what I'm dealing with, I'll take a look.
 

 

Check the price of the Wharfedale 9.1+solid standmounts vs just getting a Diamond 9.4, sometimes the cost of a solid speaker stand plus a standmount speaker puts you near the price of the floorstander anyway. If anything, the standmount and stand are easier to repack and sell, otherwise consider paying a little bit more to get the standmount. You can hold off the sub if you have to, and in some cases you might need to raise the sub off the floor depending on room acoustics.

 

Either way, mass load them with sand - even floorstanders have some provision in the cabinets (usually you need to unscrew the plate holding the speaker binding posts and crossover), just check with the manufacturer how much is the maximum since you might have to put that in the same airchamber as the speakers.

 

If you do go with floorstanders, here's a powerful T-amp: 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Topping-TP60-Tripath-Digital-Amplifier/dp/B00898T31W/ref=pd_sim_sbs_23_19?ie=UTF8&refRID=0HC464P7ZNTEEPDEW2YW

 

Alternately, look around for local audio forums, and in case you have space for them look for used NAD amplifiers, especially the 304, 310, and 3020 (not the newer D3020). I had the 304 before and they can drive practically anything with dynamic drivers, right up to a pair of Dynaudio Focus floorstanders and B&W CM-series with multiple bass drivers.

Can you elaborate on your point of room acoustics? As it oh so handily turns out this sitting room is in the process of being built, and I'd be willing to change materials used/dimensions/layout a little bit to get a nice acoustic profile, I plan on draping the walls with a heavy fabric, and the ceiling with have  a curve, and possibly a large rug on the floor to optimize the room for increasing qualities of near-throw monitors.
 
I apologize for my cluelessness right now but why is a standmount necessary as opposed to putting it on an appropriately tall unit like a TV stand? I can built a stand if needs be, I'm proficient with DIY. Having said that, if you reckon the 9.4s would be an improvement I'd be willing to spend more.
 
Thanks for the links and suggestions, I'll certainly start looking about!

 

[cel4145]

B&W makes good speakers. Could be you would like them better than Wharfedales. Best to demo and find out for yourself

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
Can you elaborate on your point of room acoustics? As it oh so handily turns out this sitting room is in the process of being built, and I'd be willing to change materials used/dimensions/layout a little bit to get a nice acoustic profile, I plan on draping the walls with a heavy fabric, and the ceiling with have  a curve, and possibly a large rug on the floor to optimize the room for increasing qualities of near-throw monitors.

 

Those are all good basic features to start with, but one other thing is to make sure that when you have the speakers set-up they're equidistant to the side walls (or you'll be even more dependent on heavier curtains for absorption, but if you overdo it you lose even the reflections for positional cues in the soundstaging), and that you can sit far enough back from the speakers. With bass frequencies there are situations where you can't predict how exactly they'll behave, like in some cases the bass can get muddy due to how the bass reflects off the corners of the back wall of the listening area.

 

Then there's the sub that may not have a linear response that can be made worse by room acoustics. Audio in particular is more problematic than HT applications for subwoofers because the sound quality isn't as critical in the finer points in the latter, whereas in audio you need to hear the reinforcing low bass at the same time as the other frequencies in the notes that they're reinforcing. If you have reflection and bass trap issues then you can hear the same note from the sub several times over and it muddies the sound; by contrast, in HT, that just results in more rumble sound that goes with the room shaking whenever there's an explosion or a spaceship zooming past. In some cases raising the subwoofer off the floor and farther out from the wall can help if you are getting these issues.

 

I'll bring up a few more below...
 
 
 

 
I apologize for my cluelessness right now but why is a standmount necessary as opposed to putting it on an appropriately tall unit like a TV stand?

 

Unless it's an HT system for the living room where you have to minimize "clutter" for higher WAF (wife approval factor), I wouldn't do that. For starters, you need to have the midpoint between the tweeter and midwoofer (closer to the tweeter, actually) as close as possible to ear level. Most TV prebuilt TV stands are geared for allowing the placement of the TV to align the center of the TV to eye level, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the speakers will be at the same height. If the speakers' tweeters and midrange aren't aligned close to ear height, you can have a wider variance in the pathlength of the tweeter vs the midrange/midwoofer to your ears, and as a result the imaging can be affected. You will hear the cymbals at eye level but everythign else will be set a little lower.

 

Then, even if you can get them a little higher like making the TV stand yourself and putting speaker shelves or other kind of platform to elevate them, there's still the problem of placing speakers too close to the walls, which can reduce the speaker options as some have rear-facing ports - these generally don't do well firing close to a wall. Even front-facing port speakers generally don't like being too close to an untreated wall since there will be too many reflections that can screw up the soundstage; at minimum, you'll lose depth. When sturios use nearfield monitors note that even when they're mounted smack on the wall, that wall (heck, the entire room) is acoustically treated. Putting a TV in front of that minimizes the effectiveness of the treatments, which is why proper studios that utilize computers usually put the speakers higher than the display and then angle them downward.

 

Notice the variance between the red and orange lines vs the pink and purple. Green and blue waves are for the soundwaves, and note how much more likely you'll have the green waves bouncing off the display and the rear wall.

 
 
 
 

  I can built a stand if needs be, I'm proficient with DIY. Having said that, if you reckon the 9.4s would be an improvement I'd be willing to spend more.

 

If you can DIY the stand then there's no problem, and that's better actually because then you can have someone help you take measurements and customize the height of the stand so that the middle of the midwoofer and tweeter will be closer to the height of your ear canals when seated. Still, if you're using a TV and you're customizing the TV stand also, make that stand a little bigger so you have space for the subwoofer on it just in case.

 

[Tadgh]

B&W makes good speakers. Could be you would like them better than Wharfedales. Best to demo and find out for yourself

Are you familiar with the response curves of either of the speaker sets in question? I'm in a position where I'm unable to to demo any hi-fi speakers and must purchase online. I live very rurally and the nearest city is barely a city. Everywhere else is a good many hour's drive away Well if they're really just a case of different sounds without any resounding winner I suppose I'll got with what's convenient for lack of a better option Thanks!
 

   
-snip for readability-

While I imagine I'm going to be unable to keep the speakers perfectly equidistant from the side walls, which may be populated with cabinets and the like, I'll certainly keep that in mind.
Also it should be worth mentioning that this is a bed-sit affair and not a large one at that (7x4m), so while the room will be at least 4 meters long and 3 wide, and the speakers as far back as possible, I'm not totally sure I can ensure an appropriate distance, is there a particular figure or formula I should aim to adhere to? Thanks for all of this by the way, I'll do anything I can do for this setup so long as it doesn't cost an arm and a leg, and I love DIY!
 
Eh, no, if I were to marry there'd my wife would be good with me taking up space for such noble adventures as a hi-fi system maybe I can't control love, but I really doubt I'd fall for someone who'd disapprove of a situation like that. Okay this is all great stuff thanks for the advice.
 
So if I were to DIY my own speaker stands, should I build them higher and angle them down and screw them in to the base at the top of the stand? Are any particular materials recommended? OOH OOH, could I put a rotating mechanism underneath the top bass so I could angle them back up for working standing or working out or cooking?! AH I COULD PUT ON HARD CABLE MANAGEMENT LOOPS.
 
I'm gonna do some mock-ups for these stands, please keep me in the loop with any ideas and if you can make any recommendations I'd greatly appreciate it! Thank you kind sir!

 

[cel4145]

Are you familiar with the response curves of either of the speaker sets in question? I'm in a position where I'm unable to to demo any hi-fi speakers and must purchase online. I live very rurally and the nearest city is barely a city. Everywhere else is a good many hour's drive away Well if they're really just a case of different sounds without any resounding winner I suppose I'll got with what's convenient for lack of a better option Thanks!

Should be able to google the model for "measurements" and find some graphs. I would imagine that stereophile or sound and vision has reviewed them. In fact, I know you can find it for the B&W DM601.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  Are you familiar with the response curves of either of the speaker sets in question? I'm in a position where I'm unable to to demo any hi-fi speakers and must purchase online. I live very rurally and the nearest city is barely a city. Everywhere else is a good many hour's drive away Well if they're really just a case of different sounds without any resounding winner I suppose I'll got with what's convenient for lack of a better option Thanks!

 

I'm more a fan of B&W although I've never owned one, but I've owned three Wharfedales - this can be explained by the price gap if you buy them new. I first had the Diamond 8.1 and 8.4, but my favorite was my Pacific Pi10 - the midwoofer on that one was close enough to the percussion on the B&W 600-series (and just giving up a tiny bit of low end response to the lower range but larger 8.4) but the treble had a gentle roll-off compared to the sometimes peaky (sibilant) and overall somewhat brighter B&W. Of course, my Pi10 had tweeter swivel mounts, so I could give them a tighter toe-in to place the cymbals closer to the center without affecting the entire soundstage.

 

The Diamond 9s aren't that much different from the 8-series - maybe a slightly smoother treble (without being darker) and midrange, and better curved cabinets. If you can find used speakers and use PayPal, I would recommend a Pacific Pi10 over the others, or a B&W 602.

 
 

 
While I imagine I'm going to be unable to keep the speakers perfectly equidistant from the side walls, which may be populated with cabinets and the like, I'll certainly keep that in mind.

 

Treat the cabinets as the side walls and measure from there, and maybe mount the heavier curtains on rails separate from the ones on the windows, running alongside the entire length of the wall, so that when you draw them out the heavy drapes cover the length of the cabinets. I have a friend who lived in a small attached home (he's in the suburb but the street was made to look more like an inner city row, and his HT is in his living room with the front door to one side and the kitchen to the other. He installed rails on the ceiling on all sides so when he's using the HT/audio system he's enclosed by heavy curtains, minimizing the difference in distance to the walls on either side as well as the furniture he has all over there.
 
 
 

 
Also it should be worth mentioning that this is a bed-sit affair and not a large one at that (7x4m), so while the room will be at least 4 meters long and 3 wide, and the speakers as far back as possible, I'm not totally sure I can ensure an appropriate distance, is there a particular figure or formula I should aim to adhere to? Thanks for all of this by the way, I'll do anything I can do for this setup so long as it doesn't cost an arm and a leg, and I love DIY!

 

I don't think there's a general rule out there but personally you'll need to at least have a space that will be considerably larger than a nearfield set-up, otherwise might as well use nearfield monitors. In a typical nearfield set-up (at home, not necessarily a recording studio) one would usually have the speakers around 0.75m apart, and then the seat is roughly half a meter away from the midpoint of the two speakers. Basically you should be able to sit in a triangle, or a "T" to make the measurements easier, with the speakers around 1.25m apart and your sat is roughly 1.5m from the center of the two speakers.

 

Otherwise might as well use a nearfield set-up with a computer, since nearfield monitors are designed and response measured at that distance. Does it really have to be a TV in there? Maybe your TV shows are on streaming sites, and just get a 27in monitor, and then use an office chair instead of an armchair. You can do awaywith the heavier drapes and just make acoustic panels on the back wall, and then along the side walls if they're too close.

 

As for the audio hardware, just use a DAC-HPamp with a preamp to decode the digital audio and control the volume, then use active monitors with 6in midwoofers. Try it out for a while before you get any subwoofer since a nearfield sitting position usually has enough bass at that distance, unless you really need  a lot of very low frequency bass.

 

.

 

 
So if I were to DIY my own speaker stands, should I build them higher and angle them down and screw them in to the base at the top of the stand? 

 
I'd really much rather reserve that kind of mounting for studio nearfield set-ups. As it is, if you do decide to go nearfield instead, then there's really no need to DIY the stands - professional active monitors sometimes have provisions for certain kinds of mounting brackets which in turn can be set to an angle. 
 
Something like this:

 
Or if you'll DIY the entire shelf, make provisions for speaker stands that put the middle of the two drivers at ear height:

 

[Me x3]

  Okay, might have been a slight clickbait of a title, compared to a lot of you lot my budget is pretty small, I'm looking to spend around $450-$500 (Except I'm in Ireland so that's in euro, and availability from Amazon.com is nout, I use .co.uk or .de)
 
I have my probable purchases picked out, to be purchased within the next two months, here's what I've chosen:
 
Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 Bookshelfs
Wharfedale SW150 Sub
SMSL SA50 AMP
Signal coming from media on PC coming through optical to SMSL SD793II AMP/DAC (otherwise used for MDR-5706s)
 
If you can give feedback on this setup please do, and explain why. 

I'll be the first to admit that while I'm technically adept, I'm new to the hi-fi scene, and need a little babying

 
What's the size of your room?
 
My advice is to put all your money on the least quantity of products possible. If you aren't in a big room, then there's no need for a Subwoofer. More so, it will make things much less 'hi-fi' unless you are willing to spend some serious money on acoustic treatment.
 
If you can get some Dali Zensor 3, that would be great.
 
Zensor 3 are very nice sounding speakers with 7 inch woofers and a really sweet sounding tweeter.
Finishing is great for the price and resembles their much more expensive siblings (Ikon, Rubicon,...)
 
Something like the Yamaha A-S501 would be great to drive these speakers (or even the A-S301) but don't worry if you can't get something like this for now.
Stick with a cheaper amp that's capable of 30-50W, it will drive the speakers just fine.
 
Zensors are warm sounding speakers, bass is full and goes deep with ease, upper mids and treble are really balanced and smooth with a sense of sweetness. When placed on stands and well positioned, the soundstage can be surprising. I've tried some quality drum tests whan I had the Zensors on a better room and it was pretty much like being there.

 

[cel4145]

If you aren't in a big room, then there's no need for a Subwoofer. More so, it will make things much less 'hi-fi' unless you are willing to spend some serious money on acoustic treatment.

I disagree with both of those statements as useful general guidelines. It's more complex that this.

Producing accurate sub bass can be equally problematic in a room in terms of frequency response whether or not the sub bass is produced by speakers or a subwoofer. So bass EQ and/or room treatments will likely be necessary regardless to get the optimal sound. Moreover, the best placement for the bass producing transducer in a room is often not the same place as where speakers would be best placed relative to the listening position.

Certainly, some floorstanding speakers might produce deep enough bass extension (depends on the speakers) for music to reproduce the entire range (depends on the music), but bookshelf speakers generally will not. And then certainly for movie watching (if the OP is interested in this), even most floorstanding speakers will not have the good deep bass extension that a good sub can for that kind of source material.

Then there is the argument to be made that it is necessarily harder to design a floorstanding speaker with drivers that can well produce sub bass, which is why typically deep bass extension from floorstanding speakers will require a driver specifically for bass frequencies. A sub is a "tool" specifically designed for that job.

 

[Me x3]

I disagree with both of those statements as useful general guidelines. It's more complex that this.

Producing accurate sub bass can be equally problematic in a room in terms of frequency response whether or not the sub bass is produced by speakers or a subwoofer. So bass EQ and/or room treatments will likely be necessary regardless to get the optimal sound. Moreover, the best placement for the bass producing transducer in a room is often not the same place as where speakers would be best placed relative to the listening position.

Certainly, some floorstanding speakers might produce deep enough bass extension (depends on the speakers) for music to reproduce the entire range (depends on the music), but bookshelf speakers generally will not. And then certainly for movie watching (if the OP is interested in this), even most floorstanding speakers will not have the good deep bass extension that a good sub can for that kind of source material.

Then there is the argument to be made that it is necessarily harder to design a floorstanding speaker with drivers that can well produce sub bass, which is why typically deep bass extension from floorstanding speakers will require a driver specifically for bass frequencies. A sub is a "tool" specifically designed for that job.

 
I think is the first time we disagree! We had sort of record of agreement!

 
That said, I agree that room treatments are necessary to get optimal sound despite having a subwoofer or not.
 
Maybe I should have explained more.
 
What I mean is that small rooms typically have strong resonances when it comes to the bass, being the wavelength (or half) comparable with the size of the room.
(Exciting the main room modes and producing standing waves). So it can be really tricky to have a pretty neutral and tight bass in such conditions.
 
I've tried DALIs on a room sized 3m x 3.6m, with some acoustic absorbers but not bass traps...
 
Zensor 1 was just fine, although not as tight as I wanted.
Zensor 3 was far too boomy despite positioning.
 
At this point, more bass quantity (Zensor 3 vs Zensor 1) translates in a 'lower-fi' experience
 
Adding a subwoofer in that environment would result in a complete mess. Sure, someone would enjoy the rumble, but from a sound quality point of view, that's not great.
 
Speakers like DALI Zensor 3 can go down to 45Hz with ease. Won't say that there's nothing happening between 20 and 40 Hz but it's not much information down there most of the times.
 
I have to hold my suggestion to go for the best possible speaker that does 45Hz to 20000Hz, instead of buying a less refined speaker for almost all the spectrum and a subwoofer that will do 20-45Hz without much fidelity anyway (due to both acoustic issues and the subwoofer limitations being sort of an entry level product)
 
It's always possible to add a subwoofer later.
 
PS. If sub-bass rumble (20-40 Hz) is a main priority, then stick with the subwoofer (2.1 system). You can always turn it off for music if it happens to be too boomy without having the right amount of space or acoustic treatment around.

 

[Tadgh]

Should be able to google the model for "measurements" and find some graphs. I would imagine that stereophile or sound and vision has reviewed them. In fact, I know you can find it for the B&W DM601.

Thanks for the advice, I'll go for that soon

 

 

I'm more a fan of B&W although I've never owned one, but I've owned three Wharfedales - this can be explained by the price gap if you buy them new. I first had the Diamond 8.1 and 8.4, but my favorite was my Pacific Pi10 - the midwoofer on that one was close enough to the percussion on the B&W 600-series (and just giving up a tiny bit of low end response to the lower range but larger 8.4) but the treble had a gentle roll-off compared to the sometimes peaky (sibilant) and overall somewhat brighter B&W. Of course, my Pi10 had tweeter swivel mounts, so I could give them a tighter toe-in to place the cymbals closer to the center without affecting the entire soundstage.

 

The Diamond 9s aren't that much different from the 8-series - maybe a slightly smoother treble (without being darker) and midrange, and better curved cabinets. If you can find used speakers and use PayPal, I would recommend a Pacific Pi10 over the others, or a B&W 602.

 
 
 

Treat the cabinets as the side walls and measure from there, and maybe mount the heavier curtains on rails separate from the ones on the windows, running alongside the entire length of the wall, so that when you draw them out the heavy drapes cover the length of the cabinets. I have a friend who lived in a small attached home (he's in the suburb but the street was made to look more like an inner city row, and his HT is in his living room with the front door to one side and the kitchen to the other. He installed rails on the ceiling on all sides so when he's using the HT/audio system he's enclosed by heavy curtains, minimizing the difference in distance to the walls on either side as well as the furniture he has all over there.
 
 
 
 

I don't think there's a general rule out there but personally you'll need to at least have a space that will be considerably larger than a nearfield set-up, otherwise might as well use nearfield monitors. In a typical nearfield set-up (at home, not necessarily a recording studio) one would usually have the speakers around 0.75m apart, and then the seat is roughly half a meter away from the midpoint of the two speakers. Basically you should be able to sit in a triangle, or a "T" to make the measurements easier, with the speakers around 1.25m apart and your sat is roughly 1.5m from the center of the two speakers.

 

Otherwise might as well use a nearfield set-up with a computer, since nearfield monitors are designed and response measured at that distance. Does it really have to be a TV in there? Maybe your TV shows are on streaming sites, and just get a 27in monitor, and then use an office chair instead of an armchair. You can do awaywith the heavier drapes and just make acoustic panels on the back wall, and then along the side walls if they're too close.

 

As for the audio hardware, just use a DAC-HPamp with a preamp to decode the digital audio and control the volume, then use active monitors with 6in midwoofers. Try it out for a while before you get any subwoofer since a nearfield sitting position usually has enough bass at that distance, unless you really need  a lot of very low frequency bass.

 

.

 
 
I'd really much rather reserve that kind of mounting for studio nearfield set-ups. As it is, if you do decide to go nearfield instead, then there's really no need to DIY the stands - professional active monitors sometimes have provisions for certain kinds of mounting brackets which in turn can be set to an angle. 
 
Something like this:

 
Or if you'll DIY the entire shelf, make provisions for speaker stands that put the middle of the two drivers at ear height:

 
Thank you very much for your experiences with these speakers, I'll search for the Pacific Pi10 as soon as possible
 
That's actually something I hadn't thought of at all, and will probably do, sectioning off the listening area with ceiling mounted rails sounds like a sensible way to go.
 
Well actually I don't watch TV at all, the TV is for casual games and shows and visitors coming over, to have a sofa-bed I can lie down on for media consumption or the like, I have a pseudo-near-field setup right now on my main rig with a pair of creative T40s - but dual 21 inches. It works okay in my bedroom but honestly I'd far prefer a dedicated TV-Sofa-Speakers setup for media consumption ( before I arouse any suspicions I work for all this which is why the budget, I'd love to be loaded though ). I appreciate the idea but I have a nice pair of MD7506s I'll use with the DAC and I'm planning on modding a little soon for my main rig, which will be hooked up to the TV to use for Netflix/Films. The whole loop is gonna go through a mixer for my mic input and other inputs, and DAC for output, I'll just swap the jack between the speakers and MDRs as I go But thanks for the advice, there's nothing better than having your motives questioned - as it forces you to reevaluate them!

   
What's the size of your room?
 
My advice is to put all your money on the least quantity of products possible. If you aren't in a big room, then there's no need for a Subwoofer. More so, it will make things much less 'hi-fi' unless you are willing to spend some serious money on acoustic treatment.
 
If you can get some Dali Zensor 3, that would be great.
 
Zensor 3 are very nice sounding speakers with 7 inch woofers and a really sweet sounding tweeter.
Finishing is great for the price and resembles their much more expensive siblings (Ikon, Rubicon,...)
 
Something like the Yamaha A-S501 would be great to drive these speakers (or even the A-S301) but don't worry if you can't get something like this for now.
Stick with a cheaper amp that's capable of 30-50W, it will drive the speakers just fine.
 
Zensors are warm sounding speakers, bass is full and goes deep with ease, upper mids and treble are really balanced and smooth with a sense of sweetness. When placed on stands and well positioned, the soundstage can be surprising. I've tried some quality drum tests whan I had the Zensors on a better room and it was pretty much like being there.

it's gonna be roughly 12m squared (4mx3m)
 
Can you back that up with any explanation please? Not to doubt you or create animosity, but I've recently gotten into a lot of Vapourwave/Trap and I do love my subbass ^^
 
I haven't heard that suggested yet, thank you, I'll certainly look into it, and might purchase if I can decide on the purchase or not purchase conundrum with the subwoofer!
 
How pronounced could you get the treble with a little bit of EQing? Their natural sound curve sounds lovely but I'm sometimes fond of a top-heavy approach (maybe not as radical as my 7506s but in that direction!) The soundstage sounds trippy as hell though, I'd love to hear that xD
 

I disagree with both of those statements as useful general guidelines. It's more complex that this.

Producing accurate sub bass can be equally problematic in a room in terms of frequency response whether or not the sub bass is produced by speakers or a subwoofer. So bass EQ and/or room treatments will likely be necessary regardless to get the optimal sound. Moreover, the best placement for the bass producing transducer in a room is often not the same place as where speakers would be best placed relative to the listening position.

Certainly, some floorstanding speakers might produce deep enough bass extension (depends on the speakers) for music to reproduce the entire range (depends on the music), but bookshelf speakers generally will not. And then certainly for movie watching (if the OP is interested in this), even most floorstanding speakers will not have the good deep bass extension that a good sub can for that kind of source material.

Then there is the argument to be made that it is necessarily harder to design a floorstanding speaker with drivers that can well produce sub bass, which is why typically deep bass extension from floorstanding speakers will require a driver specifically for bass frequencies. A sub is a "tool" specifically designed for that job.

I'd be inclined to agree with you, having to suffice with the bass produced by two mediocre near-field monitors for the last year and a bit, but having had a reasonably alright 2.1 system that was considerably stronger when it came to bass reproduction. Both of them in smaller, unoptimized rooms filled with clutter. Films and action TV really aren't of much interest to me, gaming is but I'll do most of that on headphones!
 
I reckon a good sub would be a welcome addition. Having said that I'm open to being shown otherwise or budget shifting on the bookshelf/speaker combo.
 

   
I think is the first time we disagree! We had sort of record of agreement!

 
That said, I agree that room treatments are necessary to get optimal sound despite having a subwoofer or not.
 
Maybe I should have explained more.
 
What I mean is that small rooms typically have strong resonances when it comes to the bass, being the wavelength (or half) comparable with the size of the room.
(Exciting the main room modes and producing standing waves). So it can be really tricky to have a pretty neutral and tight bass in such conditions.
 
I've tried DALIs on a room sized 3m x 3.6m, with some acoustic absorbers but not bass traps...
 
Zensor 1 was just fine, although not as tight as I wanted.
Zensor 3 was far too boomy despite positioning.
 
At this point, more bass quantity (Zensor 3 vs Zensor 1) translates in a 'lower-fi' experience
 
Adding a subwoofer in that environment would result in a complete mess. Sure, someone would enjoy the rumble, but from a sound quality point of view, that's not great.
 
Speakers like DALI Zensor 3 can go down to 45Hz with ease. Won't say that there's nothing happening between 20 and 40 Hz but it's not much information down there most of the times.
 
I have to hold my suggestion to go for the best possible speaker that does 45Hz to 20000Hz, instead of buying a less refined speaker for almost all the spectrum and a subwoofer that will do 20-45Hz without much fidelity anyway (due to both acoustic issues and the subwoofer limitations being sort of an entry level product)
 
It's always possible to add a subwoofer later.
 
PS. If sub-bass rumble (20-40 Hz) is a main priority, then stick with the subwoofer (2.1 system). You can always turn it off for music if it happens to be too boomy without having the right amount of space or acoustic treatment around.

Thank you, that was a great explanation! Is there any small tight sub-woofer you can recommend within my budget? Bass quantity isn't as important to me as it's presentation, which is crucial to me. Muddy bass is incredibly frustrating. I can deal with a little dis-coordination but once it starts to become any worse than say, the alright bass presence in my 7506s ( I'm sorry I keep using these as a comparison, I have no other 'hi-fi' gear I can compare things to.) it becomes frustrating. To reiterate low-bass and sub-bass *are* important to be but I'd rather barely any than a copious amount of muddy bass.

 

[cel4145]

I think is the first time we disagree! We had sort of record of agreement!

Well, we have to disagree occasionally or that might mean we have groupthink going on

What I mean is that small rooms typically have strong resonances when it comes to the bass, being the wavelength (or half) comparable with the size of the room.
(Exciting the main room modes and producing standing waves). So it can be really tricky to have a pretty neutral and tight bass in such conditions.

The general best practice in home audio subwoofer configuration for smaller room is to go with sealed subs since their natural roll off can take advantage of the room gain to get one closer to a fairly neutral response.

Room modes will still be a problem in larger rooms, too, which is why best practice for working with that is not just room treatments and EQ, but also well-placed dual (or triple) subs.

Zensor 1 was just fine, although not as tight as I wanted.

Zensor 3 was far too boomy despite positioning.

And, as I mentioned earlier, this is why a sub is often the better tool for achieving sub bass than speakers. We need to place our speakers in the room to optimize their soundstage and imaging for the listening position. Whereas the sub can go wherever in the room to achieve the better in-room response. And thus the sub crawl was born! http://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-connection/crawling-for-bass-subwoofer-placement

Adding a subwoofer in that environment would result in a complete mess. Sure, someone would enjoy the rumble, but from a sound quality point of view, that's not great.

Nah. Just gotta EQ the sub. A Mini-DSP, a measurement mic, and REW, and you can get good sound

That is also another potential advantage for a sub for those that do not like having EQ in their audio chain for the mids and treble. With a sub, the EQ can be implemented with the sub only.

I have to hold my suggestion to go for the best possible speaker that does 45Hz to 20000Hz, instead of buying a less refined speaker for almost all the spectrum and a subwoofer that will do 20-45Hz without much fidelity anyway (due to both acoustic issues and the subwoofer limitations being sort of an entry level product)

Now we tend to agree

People like to spend several hundred dollars on speakers, and then another few hundred on an amp or receiver, and then budget a couple of hundred dollars for a sub. If one doesn't need very deep bass extension or a lot of SPL for bass, then might be better to go with a speaker that extends a bit deeper.

That being said, with the Dali Zensor 3s, if they are tuned and perform like the Zensor 1s have been measured, they would already by -6db down by 45hz from their peak in the midbass. So already have a problem with smooth, linear bass frequency response because of the speaker design.

 

[cel4145]

I'd be inclined to agree with you, having to suffice with the bass produced by two mediocre near-field monitors for the last year and a bit, but having had a reasonably alright 2.1 system that was considerably stronger when it came to bass reproduction. Both of them in smaller, unoptimized rooms filled with clutter. Films and action TV really aren't of much interest to me, gaming is but I'll do most of that on headphones!

Even an inexpensive sub like the Wharfedale you selected can be used to fill in the low bass and extend the speakers. Since you can set the gain (volume) on the sub wherever you want, you can always turn it down if it's kind of boomy to you.

Now if you want very good bass sound, it's not cheap because a subwoofer is a big driver, in a big enclosure, that has its own amp, and they cost a good deal of money to ship. In the UK, BK is known for making good subs. Here is a 10" that they have: http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/Gemini.htm. SVS Sound is a very popular sub vendor here (like Schiit Audio is to DACs and headphone amps): http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers. They have a vendor in the UK: http://www.karma-av.co.uk/ui/product/Product-List.aspx?BrandID=13&Category=Subwoofers. To find deals on popular store brands, consult AVForums. They are a UK based home audio community and would better know the deals that you might be able to get in the UK.