24bit vs 16bit, the myth exploded!

Jan 30, 2011 at 12:14 PM Post #691 of 7,175
wavoman,
I almost completely agree with you. Almost.
 
The key thing is, that you transform one problem to another,because you say that IF the result is audible than it is caused by transformation. But you simply do not give an example.
 
Math is very tricky in these things because it is not explicit process. There were,are and will be the errors in very complex parts because of limits.
 
The up-sampling process is the black box for me so I do not trust.
 
Jan 30, 2011 at 3:19 PM Post #692 of 7,175
I agree -- I made an assumption.  The degraded sound quality I hear could be due to something other than the bit-rate conversion process, you are right.
 
But I wanted to make a point that still stands -- in the real world, music sampled at 96 can be more accurately reconstructed than music sampled at 44.1, and this not just about the frequencies above the Nyquist folding frequency (half the sampling rate).  This statement is not in conflict with Nyquist's theorem.  Nyquist's mathematical result suggests that in the real world the audible gains from such sampling would be minimal, if they exist at all.  This is why 44.1 was considered acceptable back in the day.
 
Some claim they can hear a difference, others don't.  However, this is not terribly important once music is commercially available at 96.  Because then we just leave it at 96.  Surely downcoverting it will lead to less accurate re-construction, especially to a non-congruent number like 44.1.  And in my own experiments I can hear the 96-to-44.1 downconverstion loss of fidelity, but I cannot hear the 96-to-48 loss of fidelity.  The test was not blind, so it is not conclusive.  However, I have no reason to convert to anything but 48, and I do that only for the iPod.
 
I am forced to downconvert to 176.4 or 88.2 to rip SACDs ... that really bugs me.  But downloads and DVD-A's are 96 (some at 192), so life is good.  44.1 is so yesterday.
 
Over and over, when people listen to Metallica on my iMod their jaws drop open. This would happen even if Claude and Harry listened (that's Shannon and Nyquist).  It's because I ripped the DVD-A with DVD-Explorer, carefully decimated the 96 to 48, and put in on the iMod as ALAC.  It sounds better than the 44.1 rip done with EAC and accurip, then converted from WAV and up-sampled to 48 ALAC by Xrecode II.
 
The conversion, or the higher sampling rate -- which made the difference?  Don't know and don't care.
 
Jan 30, 2011 at 4:11 PM Post #693 of 7,175
 
Quote:
 
The conversion, or the higher sampling rate -- which made the difference?  Don't know and don't care.



Another possibility is that the DVD-A audio and the CD audio are not the same to begin with.  The CD audio version may have gotten some subtle compression or other processing during the process of converting to CD format. 
 
Jan 30, 2011 at 4:26 PM Post #694 of 7,175
Could be, for sure.  You mean other than the processing to make it 44.1, the engineers might have further downgraded it. 
 
Most likely true. There's alot of stuff over at the SH forum about how the redbook masterers didn't give a damn, and the hi rez ones did, back then.
 
Jan 31, 2011 at 9:17 AM Post #695 of 7,175


Quote:
But I wanted to make a point that still stands -- in the real world, music sampled at 96 can be more accurately reconstructed than music sampled at 44.1
 
[ snip ]

 
in the real world, it is also perfectly possible to have a situation where music sampled at 44.1 can be more accurately reconstructed than music sampled at 96.....
 
(albeit a degenerate case which presumes poor signal processing system design)
 
just harry, claude et al at work......
 
 
 
Feb 5, 2011 at 2:06 PM Post #696 of 7,175
Agree 100% ... which is why it's always all about listening with our own ears (and a good set of headphones!).
 
Most of the time, a redbook CD at 44.1 ripped any old way and lossy compressed to MP3 at 256 sounds just fine, played on a stock iPod with cheap but reasonable headphones (Senn PX-100s, say). 
 
But then there are tracks for which that's not true, and the 96 DVD-A version ripped carefully and decimated to 48, lossless converted to ALAC, and played on an iMod 5.5 Gen with the Wolfson DAC, thru an iQube using Grado HF-2's will take your breath away -- and maybe the DVD-A version was better mastered, but I find compromising on any part of that chain will degrade the audio quality I experience. 
 
And finally there's that one-in-a-thousand track that played at full SACD resolution with a world class DAC (Wadia in my case), listening via Orpheus, or O2+BHSE, is life-changing.
 
So IMHO resolution matters. It doesn't matter much -- in the same sense that you need only air, food, and water to live, you don't need sex, but why would you live without it if you had the option?  So it is with Hi Res.
 
Feb 8, 2011 at 8:29 PM Post #698 of 7,175


Quote:
...
The difference may or may not be audible.  I make no claims about that.  
...
 


 
But whether the difference is audible or not is the entire point. I understand the 'just don't do it' argument in the theoretical sense, but considering the not-insignificant size difference of 96/24 and 44/16 files I don't see why one would devote resources if there is no demonstrable purpose. "I don't know, and I don't care' just doesn't cut it for me as a rationale, but I guess that is just my way of looking at things. Engineering classes will do that to you. 
biggrin.gif

 
Feb 9, 2011 at 2:49 PM Post #699 of 7,175
The size really isn't that big of a deal, is it?
 
With fully uncompressed files, we're talking about 3x the data (2x sample rate * 1.5x bit depth).
 
Storage is cheap enough. A $80 2TB HDD will still fit 1000 96/24 discs. That's $0.08 a disc, instead of around $0.03 a disc. Not a very big expense at all.
 
May 2, 2011 at 2:10 PM Post #700 of 7,175
I know this thread is two years old... 
 
There's the math and the mathematicians.  There's the music and the musicians.
There's the audiophile and his expensive stuff, and there's the music lover who knows what to listen for.
 
Here's a practical approach to the whole thing by someone who's been mastering in analogue and digital.
 
When we were recording on tape, we knew right away what the difference was between the live and the recorded.  Even in the best studios there was a clear difference between 15ips and 30ips.  Your album would sound entirely differently should you choose an option over the other.  No question about it.
 
The digital domain made us look for the differences in the same places, but we were looking at the wrong place.  For example, it became clear that the closest you'd work to the limit of the 16bits, you would get loud clipping, with no warning.  So we'd give ourselves some "space" not to go over, therefore loosing a little of the 16bit dynamic range.  From this standpoint, here's my first rule:  24bit allows you to work further from its full dynamic range without loosing quality (I'll get to the "quality" down-to-earth definition later), but stricly from a "practical" point of view.
 
- One of the first CD's I heard was "Sting - Nothing like the sun".  My first edition CD was lousy at best and I prefered the vinyl version.  Listening to "Be still my beating heart" intro with a fade-in, it was clear in my head what we had to look for to detect "quality" differences in digital masters.  In this very example, it becomes clear that we hear the floor of the track much higher than it should be, letting us hear what poor dithering sound like.   Without that dithering, we would have hear the actual 16bit steps of amplitude one by one until a pivot point where the amplitude of the mix overshadows the artifact itself.
 
- Testing with recordings made at 16bits VS 24bits, I've discovered that the break points of fade-ins and the dying point of fade-outs are where 24bits recordings really stand out.  There are only a few recordings in which I've noticed that 24bits would have been better and only 1 is of analogue source, i.e. Supertramp - Crime of the century, between "School" and "Bloody Well right".  The combination if a fade-out and a note glissendo created that artificial second "note" that a 24bit would not have, because of the "smaller steps" between the specific amplitude levels of 24bits, much smaller than those of 16bits.  This is subtle, but it is there.  On the vinyl, I cannot hear it, simply because it's not there.  So rule #2:  24bits is better than 16bits at LEAST when we expect to record and reproduce notes, chords, strings, that will either make a up or down glissendo AND an up od down crescendo.
 
- Today's albums are mastered and compressed so they can be heard loud and clear on the car radio, in your iPod, table top system...  Most sound LOUZY when played on a HI-END system, capable of better nuances and subtleties, because the CD is recorded that way.  20 years later though, when they'll release the "remastered" versions of these recordings, they'll be happy to have chosen (or unhappy if they haven't) to record in 24 bits when they'll decide NOT to make it sound as "punchy", but the 24bit original recordings will let them master the whole thing without any audible compromise on definition.  Rule #3:  Use it now if you have it, you're making choice upwards.
 
 - I've heard re-mastered albums from the 70's when digital wasn't around yet, put on SACD...  They sound good.  They sound JUST AS GOOD when digitally burned on 16bits because the tape resolution and noise floors are way ABOVE those of 16bits/44kHz.  If they "sound" better, it's because they've added EQ, filters and whatnot.  They would have come out just as good on 16bits with the same corrections.  Your original vinyl in perfect shape on a hi-end turntable is even better than those remasters, but such conditions are rare, so very few people can compare.  Rule #4:  Old masters won't sound any better whether they're put on 16bits OR 24bits OR Sacd.  The original quality is just not there yet.  It would be like expecting colors to appear from a B/W movie when copying it on DVD, or Blu-Ray.  When they sound "better" than, say, the MFSL version of it, they've just made different EQ's and filtering decisions.  All of which will sound just as good on any 16-24-Sacd format.
 
Very few know what to listen for when attempting to compare bit depths.  For instance, a know-it-all seen-il-all put up a site where you could listen to 4 wav's files, recorded at different bit depths and the author asks to guess which one is which.  The problem is, the author revealed his lack of knowledge when he chose the musical passage he did, in which it was impossible to determine that with such little mucical information.  I'm not going to mention his name but for those of you who have search for answers like me, you've heard of the whiner I'm sure.. My point is, you're only going to hear the difference IF you know what you are searching for AND if you KNOW what MUSIC should sound like in the first place.
 
*I've attempted to be as little technical as possible to reach as many music lovers as possible.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
May 3, 2011 at 2:56 PM Post #701 of 7,175


Quote:
 
- Testing with recordings made at 16bits VS 24bits, I've discovered that the break points of fade-ins and the dying point of fade-outs are where 24bits recordings really stand out.  There are only a few recordings in which I've noticed that 24bits would have been better and only 1 is of analogue source, i.e. Supertramp - Crime of the century, between "School" and "Bloody Well right".  The combination if a fade-out and a note glissendo created that artificial second "note" that a 24bit would not have, because of the "smaller steps" between the specific amplitude levels of 24bits, much smaller than those of 16bits.  This is subtle, but it is there.  On the vinyl, I cannot hear it, simply because it's not there.  So rule #2:  24bits is better than 16bits at LEAST when we expect to record and reproduce notes, chords, strings, that will either make a up or down glissendo AND an up od down crescendo.
 
To date extensive DBTs of high res and redbook standard recordings do not support your assertion, it is possible to hear any difference you like when you know which is which, being able to do it blind is a very different matter, this is where the evidence for the superiority of high res vs redbook is lacking to date. There is not one verifiable set of DBTS to support the audibility of the difference between high res and downgraded redbook for the same source (at normal listening levels).
 
 I've heard re-mastered albums from the 70's when digital wasn't around yet, put on SACD...  They sound good.  They sound JUST AS GOOD when digitally burned on 16bits because the tape resolution and noise floors are way ABOVE those of 16bits/44kHz. 
 
???????? - 1970s Analog tape surely did not manage an SNR of better than 96db ?
 
Very few know what to listen for when attempting to compare bit depths.  For instance, a know-it-all seen-il-all put up a site where you could listen to 4 wav's files, recorded at different bit depths and the author asks to guess which one is which.  The problem is, the author revealed his lack of knowledge when he chose the musical passage he did,
 
Um, but other authors have used a wider variety of sources and still found nobody who can detect the differences !
 
My point is, you're only going to hear the difference IF you know what you are searching for AND if you KNOW what MUSIC should sound like in the first place.
 
it is possible to hear any difference you like when you know which is which !



 
 
 
May 3, 2011 at 3:32 PM Post #702 of 7,175
AES E-Library
Sampling Rate Discrimination: 44.1 kHz vs. 88.2 kHz
(http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=15398)
 
"It is currently common practice for sound engineers to record digital music using high-resolution formats, and then down sample the files to 44.1kHz for commercial release. This study aims at investigating whether listeners can perceive differences between musical files recorded at 44.1kHz and 88.2kHz with the same analog chain and type of AD-converter. Sixteen expert listeners were asked to compare 3 versions (44.1kHz, 88.2kHz and the 88.2kHz version down-sampled to 44.1kHz) of 5 musical excerpts in a blind ABX task. Overall, participants were able to discriminate between files recorded at 88.2kHz and their 44.1kHz down-sampled version. Furthermore, for the orchestral excerpt, they were able to discriminate between files recorded at 88.2kHz and files recorded at 44.1kHz."
 
Authors: Pras, Amandine; Guastavino, Catherine
Affiliation: McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada
AES Convention: 128 (May 2010)

Paper Number: 8101
Subject: Audio Coding and Compression

 
Quote:
To date extensive DBTs of high res and redbook standard recordings do not support your assertion, it is possible to hear any difference you like when you know which is which, being able to do it blind is a very different matter, this is where the evidence for the superiority of high res vs redbook is lacking to date. There is not one verifiable set of DBTS to support the audibility of the difference between high res and downgraded redbook for the same source (at normal listening levels).



 
 
May 3, 2011 at 6:22 PM Post #703 of 7,175


 
Quote:
AES E-Library
Sampling Rate Discrimination: 44.1 kHz vs. 88.2 kHz
(http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=15398)
 
"It is currently common practice for sound engineers to record digital music using high-resolution formats, and then down sample the files to 44.1kHz for commercial release. This study aims at investigating whether listeners can perceive differences between musical files recorded at 44.1kHz and 88.2kHz with the same analog chain and type of AD-converter. Sixteen expert listeners were asked to compare 3 versions (44.1kHz, 88.2kHz and the 88.2kHz version down-sampled to 44.1kHz) of 5 musical excerpts in a blind ABX task. Overall, participants were able to discriminate between files recorded at 88.2kHz and their 44.1kHz down-sampled version. Furthermore, for the orchestral excerpt, they were able to discriminate between files recorded at 88.2kHz and files recorded at 44.1kHz."
 
Authors: Pras, Amandine; Guastavino, Catherine
Affiliation: McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada
AES Convention: 128 (May 2010)

Paper Number: 8101
Subject: Audio Coding and Compression

 


 


 
I have that paper, the stats are extremely dubious , and the authors refuse to release the raw data, it is an interesting paper though, I'd forgotten about that one, there is a lively discussion about it on Hydrogen Audio, C/F however Meyer and Moran who ran 60 subjects through over 500 trials and not one managed a statistically significant result.
 
 
 
May 3, 2011 at 6:36 PM Post #704 of 7,175
There was a rather extensive discussion over the methodology and validity of the M&M tests at SA-CD.net (http://sa-cd.net/showthread/42987/42987/ and http://sa-cd.net/showthread/58757/58757/). It seems that M&M unknowingly used mostly low-rez recordings in the tests, thus making the results statistically flawed to say the least. Regardless, I'd rather not get involved into that discussion (again)...
 
Quote:
I have that paper, the stats are extremely dubious , and the authors refuse to release the raw data, it is an interesting paper though, I'd forgotten about that one, there is a lively discussion about it on Hydrogen Audio, C/F however Meyer and Moran who ran 60 subjects through over 500 trials and not one managed a statistically significant result.
 


 
 
 
May 10, 2011 at 12:02 PM Post #705 of 7,175
And of course it took a panel of "experts" to do it... How many of us claim to be one? :)
 

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