24bit vs 16bit, the myth exploded!

Jan 23, 2011 at 11:25 AM Post #676 of 7,175


 
Quote:
Thank you very much. The files were downloaded. I'll do the test as soon as possible.
 
 
BTW:
  1. How can I verify that the files are not the same (only the name has changed)? ;-)
  2. Is there ABX plug-in available for Jriver Media center?
 
 
You can view the frequency analyses in Audacity or similar and see the drop off at 20K on the mp3 which does not hapen on the 16 bit wav and how the 24 bit file extends to over 32K. The 24 bit file is also substantially bigger than the other two. I had tried to convert all files to 24 bit 88.2 containers but my software will not do that.
 
 
Thank you.
 
 



 
Jan 23, 2011 at 2:00 PM Post #678 of 7,175
Thanks.
 
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.1.2
2011/01/24 02:45:42

File A: C:\Users\Khaos\Desktop\recit24bit.wav
File B: C:\Users\Khaos\Desktop\recit16bit.wav

02:45:42 : Test started.
02:46:50 : 00/01  100.0%
02:46:56 : 01/02  75.0%
02:46:59 : 02/03  50.0%
02:47:00 : 03/04  31.3%
02:47:02 : 04/05  18.8%
02:47:04 : 05/06  10.9%
02:47:05 : 06/07  6.3%
02:47:08 : 06/08  14.5%
02:47:11 : 07/09  9.0%
02:47:13 : 07/10  17.2%
02:47:26 : 07/11  27.4%
02:47:27 : 08/12  19.4%
02:47:28 : 08/13  29.1%
02:47:29 : 08/14  39.5%
02:47:30 : 08/15  50.0%
02:47:31 : 09/16  40.2%
02:47:32 : 10/17  31.5%
02:47:41 : Trial reset.
02:47:42 : 00/01  100.0%
02:47:43 : 00/02  100.0%
02:47:44 : 00/03  100.0%
02:47:46 : 01/04  93.8%
02:47:47 : 02/05  81.3%
02:47:48 : 03/06  65.6%
02:47:49 : 04/07  50.0%
02:47:50 : 05/08  36.3%
02:47:51 : 06/09  25.4%
02:47:53 : 07/10  17.2%
02:47:55 : 08/11  11.3%
02:47:55 : 08/12  19.4%
02:47:56 : 09/13  13.3%
02:47:57 : 09/14  21.2%
02:47:58 : 10/15  15.1%
02:47:59 : 10/16  22.7%
02:48:00 : 11/17  16.6%
02:48:01 : 11/18  24.0%
02:48:02 : 12/19  18.0%
02:48:03 : 12/20  25.2%
02:48:04 : 13/21  19.2%
02:48:07 : Trial reset.
02:48:10 : 00/01  100.0%
02:48:11 : 01/02  75.0%
02:48:12 : 02/03  50.0%
02:48:14 : 03/04  31.3%
02:48:14 : 03/05  50.0%
02:48:15 : 03/06  65.6%
02:48:16 : 03/07  77.3%
02:48:18 : 03/08  85.5%
02:48:19 : 04/09  74.6%
02:48:21 : 04/10  82.8%
02:48:22 : 04/11  88.7%
02:48:24 : Trial reset.
02:49:01 : 01/01  50.0%
02:49:21 : 02/02  25.0%
02:50:04 : 03/03  12.5%
02:50:27 : 04/04  6.3%
02:51:44 : 04/05  18.8%
02:51:57 : 05/06  10.9%
02:52:22 : 06/07  6.3%
02:54:25 : 07/08  3.5%
02:55:14 : 08/09  2.0%
02:56:24 : 09/10  1.1%
02:56:30 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 36/59 (5.9%)
 
Actually, the very first tests were just my playing with the ABX plugin, check out the last 10 tests,after the last rial reset, 1 error out of 10 trials, 1.1 % chance that I was guessing.
 
Jan 23, 2011 at 2:24 PM Post #679 of 7,175


 
Quote:
Thanks.
 
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.1.2
2011/01/24 02:45:42

File A: C:\Users\Khaos\Desktop\recit24bit.wav
File B: C:\Users\Khaos\Desktop\recit16bit.wav

02:45:42 : Test started.
02:46:50 : 00/01  100.0%
02:46:56 : 01/02  75.0%
02:46:59 : 02/03  50.0%
02:47:00 : 03/04  31.3%
02:47:02 : 04/05  18.8%
02:47:04 : 05/06  10.9%
02:47:05 : 06/07  6.3%
02:47:08 : 06/08  14.5%
02:47:11 : 07/09  9.0%
02:47:13 : 07/10  17.2%
02:47:26 : 07/11  27.4%
02:47:27 : 08/12  19.4%
02:47:28 : 08/13  29.1%
02:47:29 : 08/14  39.5%
02:47:30 : 08/15  50.0%
02:47:31 : 09/16  40.2%
02:47:32 : 10/17  31.5%
02:47:41 : Trial reset.
02:47:42 : 00/01  100.0%
02:47:43 : 00/02  100.0%
02:47:44 : 00/03  100.0%
02:47:46 : 01/04  93.8%
02:47:47 : 02/05  81.3%
02:47:48 : 03/06  65.6%
02:47:49 : 04/07  50.0%
02:47:50 : 05/08  36.3%
02:47:51 : 06/09  25.4%
02:47:53 : 07/10  17.2%
02:47:55 : 08/11  11.3%
02:47:55 : 08/12  19.4%
02:47:56 : 09/13  13.3%
02:47:57 : 09/14  21.2%
02:47:58 : 10/15  15.1%
02:47:59 : 10/16  22.7%
02:48:00 : 11/17  16.6%
02:48:01 : 11/18  24.0%
02:48:02 : 12/19  18.0%
02:48:03 : 12/20  25.2%
02:48:04 : 13/21  19.2%
02:48:07 : Trial reset.
02:48:10 : 00/01  100.0%
02:48:11 : 01/02  75.0%
02:48:12 : 02/03  50.0%
02:48:14 : 03/04  31.3%
02:48:14 : 03/05  50.0%
02:48:15 : 03/06  65.6%
02:48:16 : 03/07  77.3%
02:48:18 : 03/08  85.5%
02:48:19 : 04/09  74.6%
02:48:21 : 04/10  82.8%
02:48:22 : 04/11  88.7%
02:48:24 : Trial reset.
02:49:01 : 01/01  50.0%
02:49:21 : 02/02  25.0%
02:50:04 : 03/03  12.5%
02:50:27 : 04/04  6.3%
02:51:44 : 04/05  18.8%
02:51:57 : 05/06  10.9%
02:52:22 : 06/07  6.3%
02:54:25 : 07/08  3.5%
02:55:14 : 08/09  2.0%
02:56:24 : 09/10  1.1%
02:56:30 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 36/59 (5.9%)
 
Actually, the very first tests were just my playing with the ABX plugin, check out the last 10 tests,after the last rial reset, 1 error out of 10 trials, 1.1 % chance that I was guessing.
Is there a trick? maybe.


I'd be inclined to ignore all the previous tests and do another big run from scratch of say 20 trials, otherwise what you are doing is cherry-picking , i.e deciding to use only the best data. In the last tests what did you home in on was one perceptibly louder, shriller, less disrtorted, what cues were there?
 
For the record I have guessed 7/8 in Foobar always saying X is A. 9/10 does looks solid though
 
Jan 23, 2011 at 2:39 PM Post #680 of 7,175
Hmmm what are those figures? dB below full scale, if they are those would be inaudible at standard volume (not to mention that 16 bit goes only to -98 dB). the values of the samples maybe?
 
Actually, it's more trivial than that, using foobar's replay gain, the 24 bit track is at +2.61 dB while the 16 bit track is at +2.91 dB.
0.3 dB difference => distinguishable.
 
I didn't use replay gain for the ABX, had I used it, I 'd doubt I'd get the same results.
 
Jan 23, 2011 at 2:43 PM Post #681 of 7,175


Quote:
Hmmm what are those figures? dB below full scale, if they are those would be inaudible at standard volume (not to mention that 16 bit goes only to -98 dB). the values of the samples maybe?
 
Actually, it's more trivial than that, using foobar's replay gain, the 24 bit track is at +2.61 dB while the 16 bit track is at +2.91 dB.
0.3 dB difference => distinguishable.
 
I didn't use replay gain for the ABX, had I used it, I 'd doubt I'd get the same results.

 
Sorry those figures were db below full scale and difference between 16 bit sample and 24 bit sample, but I dissed tham as I am not convinced they are reliable

 
 
Jan 23, 2011 at 2:57 PM Post #682 of 7,175
Actually, before the last series of 10 trials, I was clicking at random without even listening to the samples to see the kind of percentages I'd get.
I thought that the reset button erased all previous data, it turned out not to be so, so the "playing around" data was kept and included in the final report, all in all, it's just a series of 10 consecutive trials with one mistake, and I don't want to do it again since it's 4 am in Beijing. Good morning, I suppose.

Notice how without the last series of 10 trials, I get a wooping 27/49 by randomly guessing. (ironical)
Also, the only thing I proved was that a .3 dB difference is audible, hence the necessity to level match to at least 0.1 dB in ABX, fact which was known long before, no need to do another run of ABX to confirm a known fact. I'm going to sleep now.
 
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
 

 
Quote:
I'd be inclined to ignore all the previous tests and do another big run from scratch of say 20 trials, otherwise what you are doing is cherry-picking , i.e deciding to use only the best data. In the last tests what did you home in on was one perceptibly louder, shriller, less disrtorted, what cues were there?
 
For the record I have guessed 7/8 in Foobar always saying X is A. 9/10 does looks solid though

 
Jan 24, 2011 at 1:53 AM Post #683 of 7,175

Thank you very much. I plan to make that test on Wednesday or Thursday...
 
Quote:
 
Quote:
Thank you very much. The files were downloaded. I'll do the test as soon as possible.
 
 
BTW:
  1. How can I verify that the files are not the same (only the name has changed)? ;-)
  2. Is there ABX plug-in available for Jriver Media center?
 
 
You can view the frequency analyses in Audacity or similar and see the drop off at 20K on the mp3 which does not hapen on the 16 bit wav and how the 24 bit file extends to over 32K. The 24 bit file is also substantially bigger than the other two. I had tried to convert all files to 24 bit 88.2 containers but my software will not do that.
 
 
Thank you.
 
 


 



 
Jan 27, 2011 at 3:57 AM Post #684 of 7,175
Hi All:
 
I've browsed through this thread, but haven't really found a consensus, and the physics / wave theory is over my head (econ major). Anyway, here's my question (and ultimately, the reason I stopped by).
 
  1. For Headphone listening, does the bit rate that a given DAC is capable of (16 v. 24) affect the sound quality (detail or dynamics) in any audible way? Assume FLAC is being played.
  2. As you can see in my sig, I'm running FLAC --> E7/E9 via USB --> HD650. Is the 16 bit-rate in the E7 holding me back here?
 
I appreciate everyone's eagerness to share knowledge about this subject, sorry I'm a n00b with this.

 
 
Jan 27, 2011 at 4:58 AM Post #685 of 7,175
I'm no audio engineer, but I did a fair bit of reading after finding this thread, and I think I have a pretty good understanding of this now. Hopefully someone can correct me if I make a mistake.
 
Here goes:
Like the OP stated, 24-bit audio allows for a greater dynamic range than 16 bit. This is irrelevant however, because the dynamic range of 24 bit audio is 144dB which is the equivalent of a gunshot. 16-bit audio has a dynamic range of 96 dB which is also very loud. Dynamic range is the difference between the sound floor and the loudest possible un-distorted sine wave, the OP estimates a sound floor of ~50dB for speakers and ~30dB for headphones, which means that the full dynamic range of a CD will effectively deafen you and the full dynamic range of 24 bit audio will kill you.
 
The Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorum states that a sound can be accurately reconstructed from samples up to a maximum frequency equal to one half of the sample rate, 44.1khz sampling frequency = 22.05khz highest frequency that can be reconstructed; 96 khz ---> 48khz etc. A child can hear up to 20khz and that range decreases throughout life.
 
Both of these mean that, in a practical application, CD quality audio (16 bit @ 44.1kHz) is as high as you will ever need for listenning to music. Recording and mastering is a different story and I can't comment on that.
 
(I'll edit my post if anyone spots a mistake)
 
Jan 27, 2011 at 12:16 PM Post #686 of 7,175
Thanks for summing that up for me, montero--that definitely makes sense. Does anyone else agree/disagree with his summary?
Looks like I will be upgrading amps before I upgrade my DAC ;-)
 
Jan 27, 2011 at 12:43 PM Post #687 of 7,175
His summary is essentially correct. There are some reasons higher bit rates/depths are used during the recording and mastering process, but for distribution there is little reason to go beyond the 44 kHz/16 bit Redbook standard. The only thing a higher bitrate will give you is a higher upper frequency limit (and 20 kHz is plenty if you happen to be a human being) and the only thing a greater bit depth will give you is a dynamic range way beyond what is practical or what your playback equipment (no matter how good it is) is capable of supporting. The common imperfect understanding of these facts by consumers does make a lot marketing departments happy though.
 
Jan 27, 2011 at 1:40 PM Post #688 of 7,175
Here is my test results:
 
test1:
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.1.2
2011/01/27 18:38:22
File A: C:\Users\marian\Desktop\recit16bit.wav
File B: C:\Users\marian\Desktop\recit24bit.wav
18:38:22 : Test started.
18:40:36 : 01/01  50.0%
18:48:47 : 01/02  75.0%
18:49:09 : 02/03  50.0%
18:49:17 : 03/04  31.3%
18:49:28 : 03/05  50.0%
18:50:07 : 04/06  34.4%
18:50:24 : 04/07  50.0%
18:50:52 : 05/08  36.3%
18:51:08 : 06/09  25.4%
18:51:48 : 07/10  17.2%
18:56:47 : Test finished.
 ----------
Total: 7/10 (17.2%) 
********************************************************** 
test2:
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.1.2
2011/01/27 19:06:17
File A: C:\Users\marian\Desktop\recit16bit.wav
File B: C:\Users\marian\Desktop\recit24bit.wav
19:06:17 : Test started.
19:06:28 : 01/01  50.0%
19:06:42 : 02/02  25.0%
19:08:14 : 03/03  12.5%
19:09:24 : 03/04  31.3%
19:10:14 : 04/05  18.8%
19:10:24 : 04/06  34.4%
19:10:34 : 04/07  50.0%
19:11:00 : 05/08  36.3%
19:11:19 : 06/09  25.4%
19:11:34 : 07/10  17.2%
19:11:57 : Test finished.
 ----------
Total: 7/10 (17.2%) 
**********************************************************
test3:
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.1.2
2011/01/27 19:18:52
File A: C:\Users\marian\Desktop\recit16bit.wav
File B: C:\Users\marian\Desktop\recit24bit.wav
19:18:52 : Test started.
19:19:02 : 01/01  50.0%
19:19:50 : 02/02  25.0%
19:20:53 : 03/03  12.5%
19:22:27 : 04/04  6.3%
19:23:20 : 04/05  18.8%
19:23:48 : 05/06  10.9%
19:24:33 : 06/07  6.3%
19:24:55 : 07/08  3.5%
19:25:22 : 08/09  2.0%
19:26:07 : 09/10  1.1%
19:26:21 : Test finished.
 ----------
Total: 9/10 (1.1%) 
 
Best,
Marian
 
Jan 29, 2011 at 10:09 PM Post #690 of 7,175


Quote:
...The only thing a higher bitrate will give you is a higher upper frequency limit ...

 
Well not quite true.  The Nyquist theorem does not imply this; some posters here do not understand the theorem fully I'm afraid.
 
The theorem is an exact result in a theoretical world that is only an approximation to reality.  You see, the Fourier transform of a bandwidth-limited function has infinite support in the time domain.  So unless you believe the song you are listening to began at the dawn of time, and will go on forever, then Nyquist does not apply precisely.
 
Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist%E2%80%93Shannon_sampling_theorem#Practical_considerations
 
It's a really good model of nature, so Nyquist packs a lot of practical wisdom ... but no guarantee that you will get an exact reconstruction from 0 to 22.05 if you sample at 44.1 .  You won't.
 
There's more to say:  if the original recording A-to-D step is done at 96, which it often is, you will get a better reconstruction of the analog waveform in the D-to-A step if you keep the 96 digital sample.  Down converting to 44.1 will lose information that results in a less-perfect analog output after D-to-A.
 
The difference may or may not be audible.  I make no claims about that.  But computer audio makes it trivial to store and use music at the same sampling rate it was recorded at, so this is where the world should go, and is: the future is 96 downloads.
 
I am sure the difference between 16 bits and 24 bits is not audible, but that's not the point.  The point is: don't convert.  Every conversion loses something, making the final D-to-A less accurate.  Again, it may not be audible, but if recording hardware runs at 96/24, then why not run your playback software like that. 
 
Real-world D-to-A conversion algorithms typically begin with an interpolation step that upsamples dramatically, so that the final modulation resulting in the analog signal is more accurate.  (Not all DACs do this, but most do, and the ones that don't typically sound worse, most people agree -- some disagree, but that's life).  This is the problem with having both the 44.1 / 88.2 / 176.4 world vs the 48 / 96 / 192 world.  Upsampling (and downsampling for storage considerations if you have devices with limited disk) across those two families introduces a lot more error than within those families -- interpolation vs simple decimation (really hexamation) and replication.
 
Half-sampling a 96 file to store as Apple Lossless (48) sounds better to me than the same track off a redbook CD at 44.1 re-sampled by SOX to Apple Lossless at 48.  So maybe the difference in sampling rates is audible, but the test was not blind so I don't know for sure. Often playing directly the 96 on a computer (instead of 48 on an iPod) doesn't sound different that playing the 44.1 on the same hardware, so who knows.  My belief is the non-congruent conversion is a bigger factor than the increased sampling rate.  BTW, I never hear any difference when I convert 24 bit 96 to 16 bit 96.
 
Back to the main point.  In the real physical world, a higher sampling rate, if preserved throughout the playback chain right up to the final D-to-A, can indeed lead to more accurate reconstruction of the original analog signal, and NOT just at higher frequencies.  This does not violate the Nyquist theorem.  There is no guarantee of exact reconstruction (in the real world) of frequencies at or below half the sampling rate, although you can get very close.  I have no idea if faster samplng makes an audible difference.  Most published blind tests suggests it does not.  So do my own non-blind tests on myself.  But my own non-blind tests on myself suggest that sample rate conversion does introduce (small, and only sometimes) audible effects, so that 96 recordings should be kept at 96.


 
 

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