24bit vs 16bit, the myth exploded!
Dec 17, 2010 at 3:58 PM Post #646 of 7,175

 
Quote:
Quote:
I just got an idea how it is better possible to picture why bit depth got nothing to do with wave resolution.
Imagine a sine at 10 kHz. Imagine it sampled with 44,1 kHz.
Picture 1/10000 second (which shows just one pass of the sine through max and min).
There are only around four values taken for this pass. The sine must look really ugly now, with only four steps.
Regardless how big the bit depth, even with 100 bit there are still only four values taken.
But e.g. with 24 bit compared to 16 bit you will be able to take greater max and smaller min values, which would be the greater dynamic range as far as I understood.

Correct me somebody if I'm wrong, please.


The sine doesn't look ugly at all, it looks fine (READ!). What looks ugly is if you link the 4 sample values with a straight line, but that has nothing to do with how the waveform is reconstructed.

 
Cool down :), read slowly and assume positively :). You're "fighting" (mind the quotes) the wrong one. You missunderstood ...
The first part of your second sentence states exactly what I wrote and what I meant.
This was a reply to this steps thing graph of wyager and my doubts about it, not my support ...
I wanted to show/picture that the bit depth got nothing to do with the reconstruction of the wave because e.g  if it would determine the reconstruction of a 10 kHz sine it would sound gruesome, but it doesn't, so his assumption has to be wrong !
I never said that the resulting wave looked bad after all processing is done.
 
But as I said before ... sometimes it's difficult not to be misunderstood ...
 
 
The rest of your post I appreciate a lot, because the picture gets more clear for me with that explanation. I almost have this bit depth, noise, dynamic range thing clear now :)
(This wave reconstruction thing I have clear ... otherwise I wouldn't have posted this link: http://www.lavryengineering.com/documents/Sampling_Theory.pdf)
 
Dec 17, 2010 at 4:15 PM Post #647 of 7,175
I'm not fighting, my response was meant to be sober, illustrative, explanatory.
 
I don't think I misunderstood you. I wanted to point out that, since you mentioned it "looks ugly", that thinking of it that way is not the right approach and will just cause confusion. (no matter where this idea came from)
 
Hope I could be of some help. 
wink.gif

 
Dec 17, 2010 at 4:22 PM Post #648 of 7,175


Quote:
I'm not fighting, my response was meant to be sober, illustrative, explanatory.
 
I don't think I misunderstood you. I wanted to point out that, since you mentioned it "looks ugly", that thinking of it that way is not the right approach and will just cause confusion.
 
Hope I could be of some help. 
wink.gif



You could, as I mentioned :)
But your other remark unfortunately was just confusing wyager ... and you did misunderstood, as I tried to explain.
My example was meant to illustrate the wrongness of wyagers assumptions, therefore I used a language based on his vocabulary ... so  this "looks ugly" was meant to be ironic, sarcastic ...whatever.
And I know that there are no steps in the reconstructed wave ... I thought that should be clear regarding my prior replies to wyager.
 
Dec 17, 2010 at 8:39 PM Post #649 of 7,175
xabu, please don't be passive-agressive and claim that you were asking that question for my benefit. You were just as wrong (if not more so) than I was.
 
xnor, thank you for the explanation. I think I get it now. Your graphs have been indispensable. 
 
Dec 18, 2010 at 1:54 PM Post #650 of 7,175


Quote:
xabu, please don't be passive-agressive and claim that you were asking that question for my benefit. You were just as wrong (if not more so) than I was.
 
xnor, thank you for the explanation. I think I get it now. Your graphs have been indispensable. 

 
O.k. it's futile and your remark is ridiculous.
I was not asking for your benefit, but because I suddenly had an idea how to make it clear in layman terms that your steps idea is wrong.
Next time I post something I will accompany it with a big explanation how it is meant so everybody get's it
beerchug.gif
.
(Perhaps some do already, reading all the posts in order)
 
Oh my.
 
Dec 18, 2010 at 9:07 PM Post #651 of 7,175
surveying the recent pages in this thread, one is reminded of an observation by Bob Katz... (paraphrasing) posting many of those messages, while perhaps having not killed many trees, has certainly inconvenienced a lot of electrons.
 
 
for those who would like an easily-digestible but accurate overview of sampling theory, quantization, sources and impact of errors etc, digital signal processing and digital audio systems engineering; the most-recent sixth edition of Ken Pohlman's "Principles of Digital Audio" is currently available from amazon for just over $31.00 (shipped US).
 
 
highly-recommended for anyone interested in a factually-correct reference.  chapter 2 alone is worth the price of admission, and could prove particularly valuable for some recent prolific posters who appear to be running on assumptions, analogies, loose syllogisms and incomplete information.
 
 
hth
chuck
 
edit: formatting
 
Jan 14, 2011 at 12:15 PM Post #656 of 7,175
Food for thought...
 
If the author of that book, Ken Pohlman's "Principles of Digital Audio", posted here in this Head-Fi thread, his postings would likely be questioned, denigrated, and otherwise covered over by hearsay and innuendo.  
 
You know what they say, innuendo and out the other...
wink_face.gif

 
Jan 21, 2011 at 4:41 AM Post #658 of 7,175
Really nice piece of ....
 
I did a blind test where I had 9s of
 
 

[*]  
 
 
  1. mp3 320
  2. 16bit
  3. 24bit
 
of the same piece of music added in the play-list and played randomly. During the playback, I made some tea/coffee because I want to be sure that I do not know by any chance which piece is playing.
 
As you mentioned before I was not able to here the difference in amount of detail. BUT I can hear the change of dynamic. Just keep in mind that I had only 9+9 seconds to figure out which  one was better (!!! ones again I was not able to tell if were playing 320/24 or 16/24 or 320/16 !!!!).
 
5 out of 5 was the result.
 
nb->usb->DAC1->K701
 
Quote:
It seems to me that there is a lot of misunderstanding regarding what bit depth is and how it works in digital audio. This misunderstanding exists not only in the consumer and audiophile worlds but also in some education establishments and even some professionals. This misunderstanding comes from supposition of how digital audio works rather than how it actually works. It's easy to see in a photograph the difference between a low bit depth image and one with a higher bit depth, so it's logical to suppose that higher bit depths in audio also means better quality. This supposition is further enforced by the fact that the term 'resolution' is often applied to bit depth and obviously more resolution means higher quality. So 24bit is Hi-Rez audio and 24bit contains more data, therefore higher resolution and better quality. All completely logical supposition but I'm afraid this supposition is not entirely in line with the actual facts of how digital audio works. I'll try to explain:

When recording, an Analogue to Digital Converter (ADC) reads the incoming analogue waveform and measures it so many times a second (1*). In the case of CD there are 44,100 measurements made per second (the sampling frequency). These measurements are stored in the digital domain in the form of computer bits. The more bits we use, the more accurately we can measure the analogue waveform. This is because each bit can only store two values (0 or 1), to get more values we do the same with bits as we do in normal counting. IE. Once we get to 9, we have to add another column (the tens column) and we can keep adding columns add infinitum for 100s, 1000s, 10000s, etc. The exact same is true for bits but because we only have two values per bit (rather than 10) we need more columns, each column (or additional bit) doubles the number of vaules we have available. IE. 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024 .... If these numbers appear a little familiar it is because all computer technology is based on bits so these numbers crop up all over the place. In the case of 16bit we have roughly 65,000 different values available. The problem is that an analogue waveform is constantly varying. No matter how many times a second we measure the waveform or how many bits we use to store the measurement, there are always going to be errors. These errors in quantifying the value of a constantly changing waveform are called quantisation errors. Quantisation errors are bad, they cause distortion in the waveform when we convert back to analogue and listen to it.

So far so good, what I've said until now would agree with the supposition of how digital audio works. I seem to have agreed that more bits = higher resolution. True, however, where the facts start to diverge from the supposition is in understanding the result of this higher resolution. Going back to what I said above, each time we increase the bit depth by one bit, we double the number of values we have available (EG. 4bit = 16 values, 5bit = 32 values). If we double the number of values, we halve the amount of quantisation errors. Still with me? Because now we come to the whole nub of the matter. There is in fact a perfect solution to quantisation errors which completely (100%) eliminates quantisation distortion, the process is called 'Dither' and is built into every ADC on the market.

Dither: Essentially during the conversion process a very small amount of white noise is added to the signal, this has the effect of completely randomising the quantisation errors. Randomisation in digital audio, once converted back to analogue is heard as pure white (un-correlated) noise. The result is that we have an absolutely perfect measurement of the waveform (2*) plus some noise. In other words, by dithering, all the measurement errors have been converted to noise. (3*).

Hopefully you're still with me, because we can now go on to precisely what happens with bit depth. Going back to the above, when we add a 'bit' of data we double the number of values available and therefore halve the number of quantisation errors. If we halve the number of quantisation errors, the result (after dithering) is a perfect waveform with halve the amount of noise. To phrase this using audio terminology, each extra bit of data moves the noise floor down by 6dB (half). We can turn this around and say that each bit of data provides 6dB of dynamic range (*4). Therefore 16bit x 6db = 96dB. This 96dB figure defines the dynamic range of CD. (24bit x 6dB = 144dB).

So, 24bit does add more 'resolution' compared to 16bit but this added resolution doesn't mean higher quality, it just means we can encode a larger dynamic range. This is the misunderstanding made by many. There are no extra magical properties, nothing which the science does not understand or cannot measure. The only difference between 16bit and 24bit is 48dB of dynamic range (8bits x 6dB = 48dB) and nothing else. This is not a question for interpretation or opinion, it is the provable, undisputed logical mathematics which underpins the very existence of digital audio.

So, can you actually hear any benefits of the larger (48dB) dynamic range offered by 24bit? Unfortunately, no you can't. The entire dynamic range of some types of music is sometimes less than 12dB. The recordings with the largest dynamic range tend to be symphony orchestra recordings but even these virtually never have a dynamic range greater than about 60dB. All of these are well inside the 96dB range of the humble CD. What is more, modern dithering techniques (see 3 below), perceptually enhance the dynamic range of CD by moving the quantisation noise out of the frequency band where our hearing is most sensitive. This gives a percievable dynamic range for CD up to 120dB (150dB in certain frequency bands).

You have to realise that when playing back a CD, the amplifier is usually set so that the quietest sounds on the CD can just be heard above the noise floor of the listening environment (sitting room or cans). So if the average noise floor for a sitting room is say 50dB (or 30dB for cans) then the dynamic range of the CD starts at this point and is capable of 96dB (at least) above the room noise floor. If the full dynamic range of a CD was actually used (on top of the noise floor), the home listener (if they had the equipment) would almost certainly cause themselves severe pain and permanent hearing damage. If this is the case with CD, what about 24bit Hi-Rez. If we were to use the full dynamic range of 24bit and a listener had the equipment to reproduce it all, there is a fair chance, depending on age and general health, that the listener would die instantly. The most fit would probably just go into coma for a few weeks and wake up totally deaf. I'm not joking or exaggerating here, think about it, 144dB + say 50dB for the room's noise floor. But 180dB is the figure often quoted for sound pressure levels powerful enough to kill and some people have been killed by 160dB. However, this is unlikely to happen in the real world as no DACs on the market can output the 144dB dynamic range of 24bit (so they are not true 24bit converters), almost no one has a speaker system capable of 144dB dynamic range and as said before, around 60dB is the most dynamic range you will find on a commercial recording.

So, if you accept the facts, why does 24bit audio even exist, what's the point of it? There are some useful application for 24bit when recording and mixing music. In fact, when mixing it's pretty much the norm now to use 48bit resolution. The reason it's useful is due to summing artefacts, multiple processing in series and mainly headroom. In other words, 24bit is very useful when recording and mixing but pointless for playback. Remember, even a recording with 60dB dynamic range is only using 10bits of data, the other 6bits on a CD are just noise. So, the difference in the real world between 16bit and 24bit is an extra 8bits of noise.

I know that some people are going to say this is all rubbish, and that “I can easily hear the difference between a 16bit commercial recording and a 24bit Hi-Rez version”. Unfortunately, you can't, it's not that you don't have the equipment or the ears, it is not humanly possible in theory or in practice under any conditions!! Not unless you can tell the difference between white noise and white noise that is well below the noise floor of your listening environment!! If you play a 24bit recording and then the same recording in 16bit and notice a difference, it is either because something has been 'done' to the 16bit recording, some inappropriate processing used or you are hearing a difference because you expect a difference.

G

1 = Actually these days the process of AD conversion is a little more complex, using oversampling (very high sampling frequencies) and only a handful of bits. Later in the conversion process this initial sampling is 'decimated' back to the required bit depth and sample rate.

2 = The concept of the perfect measurement or of recreating a waveform perfectly may seem like marketing hype. However, in this case it is not. It is in fact the fundamental tenet of the Nyquist-Shannon Sampling Theorem on which the very existence and invention of digital audio is based. From WIKI: “In essence the theorem shows that an analog signal that has been sampled can be perfectly reconstructed from the samples”. I know there will be some who will disagree with this idea, unfortunately, disagreement is NOT an option. This theorem hasn't been invented to explain how digital audio works, it's the other way around. Digital Audio was invented from the theorem, if you don't believe the theorem then you can't believe in digital audio either!!

3 = In actual fact these days there are a number of different types of dither used during the creation of a music product. Most are still based on the original TPDFs (triangular probability density function) but some are a little more 'intelligent' and re-distribute the resulting noise to less noticeable areas of the hearing spectrum. This is called noise-shaped dither.

4 = Dynamic range, is the range of volume between the noise floor and the maximum volume.



 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top