[71 dB]

You seem to think that Music Theory is just sonata form or counterpoint, it isn’t.

What the ***? How can you understand me that wrong?

Music theory is all the forms, binary form, tertiary form, rondo form, symphony, concerto and other forms, it also includes modern popular music forms, such as 12 bar blues, the verse/chorus form found in most pop music, etc.

Yes exactly and depending on what kind of music you create, you need certain parts of this long list. That's my whole point!

Can you start creating fusion harmony without knowing counterpoint or sonata form? Sure but you’re going to have a tough job without knowing what a chord is, at least some of the various chords, such as I, IV, V, Major or Minor or what harmony is, all of which were defined in the 1400’s by classical Music Theory.

Yes, and that's why the theory of fusion harmony contains what a chord is: You have a basic triad and then you use chord extensions and possibly doubling to have six parts.

All the Bishara music I’ve heard uses music theory extensively and John Williams could hardly use it more extensively!

Okay. I am not an expert of Bishara.

Does Tangerine Dream’s music use any structure/form at all? You think maybe it’s a structure/form completely unknown to Music Theory? What about chords, melodies, rhythms or synthesiser techniques? Seeing as most/all of them studied music theory when they were younger, it seems pretty unlikely they all forgot it completely and incorporated all that music theory unknowingly, by chance.

Depends on how you define structure. A repeated loop in a techno track could be called a "structure", but it is nowhere near the same thing as sonata form being a "structure" for example.

I haven't said they didn't/don't know music theory. At least they were influenced by classical music composers. I said their movie scores are completely different from John Williams. Obviously they apply music theory very differently from John Williams!

Music Theory includes notation, harmony/tonality, structure/form, rhythm and melody. How many pieces of film music do you know that don’t include any of these things? Assuming the answer is none, then music theory is obviously always relevant to movie music!

G

Certain fundamental parts as harmony and notation are part of movie music theory. How could they not be. The difference of movie music theory and classical music theory is how chord progressions work: Functional harmony vs. chord combinations to evoke emotion.

Also: All music composed for movie doesn't use only movie music theory. Good movie music composers know tons of theory and use it when needed. Movie music theory is a modern way of thinking about things to be used "with the older theories".

That said, this all started when I tried to encourage someone here to study music theory. It escalated in ways I don't like and the individual in question is possibly disencouraged off all of this! What is the point? Can't we just let this be?

 

[bigshot]

Just reply to the people you *want* to talk with.

 

[bigshot]

Can you please link me to a video of Lithuanian folk music that sounds like Rite of Spring? I've heard a little bit of folk music from that area, but nothing I've heard sounds remotely like Rite.

Thanks for the tip on Lithuanian folk music. Not all of it sounds like Rite of Spring, but I found a couple that do.

 

[Steve999]

Of course Dvorak is pretty cool for using folk music and local color, both from the Czech tradition in most of his music and from the U.S’s incredibly fertile eclectic melting pot just before the beginning of the 20th century, from Native American to Black American and other influences, in his 9th (New World) Symphony composed from NYC in 1893.

It’s also got some nice (U.S.-native) cardinal and bluebird bird song interplay in it too.

There’s a ton to dig into here, but I think the music stands up amazingly well on its own in the abstract too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._9_(Dvořák)

 

[bigshot]

I have a favorite Dvorak New World to link to too!

Henri Georges Clouzot was a great French film director (Wages of Fear, Diabolique, Mystery of Picasso) who partnered with Herbert von Karajan to create filmed versions of live symphonic performances in ideal conditions for photographing. They did many incredible films together, and apparently butted heads a lot, but my favorite is this one. It's Karajan is in complete control, performing his signature glossy, jewel encrusted style at white heat. The cinematics, lighting and photography are all drop dead gorgeous. The camera is always in the perfect spot to convey what's going on. I could watch this a hundred times and still see new things in it.



The more I learn about classical music, the more interested I get in performance style. I know the basics about the composer and works, so now seeing them through the baton of widely divergent conductors is a revelation each time. There is no one perfect version of any work. It's a collaboration between composer, conductor and orchestra, and it's different every time... or at least it should be. There are some conductors who just play the notes on the page and don't add anything to it, but they don't interest me much.

 

[old tech]

What ever happened to 24bit vs 16bit?

 

[Ryokan]

We have Rimsky Korsakov (and Alexander Glazunov) to thank for finishing Borodin's opera Prince Igor which incorporates song heavily influenced by local folk music.

 

[71 dB]

What ever happened to 24bit vs 16bit?

We are 24 km to 16 miles from the top...

 

[gregorio]

A repeated loop in a techno track could be called a "structure", but it is nowhere near the same thing as sonata form being a "structure" for example.

No, a repeated loop could not be called a “structure” (or a “form”), it could be called a “structural element”. So a repeated loop is clearly not the same thing as Sonata Form, which obviously is a “form” (made up of a number of different specific “structural elements” in a particular order).

However, the use of a repeated loop (in Techno or other popular genres) is a particularly good example of music theory! In music theory, a repeated loop is called an “Ostinato” and dates back to the Medieval period. During the Baroque period the Ostinato was particularly heavily employed and developed. Some Baroque pieces are nothing but the same repeated bass loop (“Basso Ostinato” or “Ground Bass”) from beginning to end, with a melody on top which is varied (called “variation form”). Famous examples would be Pachelbel’s Canon and Bach’s Passacaglia in Cmin. A Fugue is a more sophisticated use of repeated loops, typically involving the development of a second loop (and sometimes a third or even forth) which is then juxtaposed to the first loop (according to a strict set of rules).

Only considering Pachelbel’s Canon: “Pete Waterman described Canon in D as "almost the godfather of pop music because we've all used that in our own ways for the past 30 years". He also said that Kylie Minogue's 1988 UK number one hit single "I Should Be So Lucky", which Waterman co-wrote and co-produced, was inspired by Canon in D.” - Wikipedia.

Pachelbel’s Canon is good example of counterpoint, though not as sophisticated as Bach’s counterpoint (when composing fugues). An even simpler type of counterpoint is “Cantus Firmus”, where the melody also does not change/vary (except the pitch of the entire loop can change to reflect key/chord changes).

A particularly obvious example of this type of simple counterpoint, an end to end Basso (and rhythmical) Ostinato with a Cantus Firmus would be Donna Summer’s “I feel Love”. A slightly more sophisticated example would be “Das Model” by Kraftwerk, more sophisticated because the Basso Ostinato and Cantus Firmus are separated by different “bridge” sections. And these are two of the most important foundational pieces for EDM!

Studying counterpoint therefore absolutely could be useful, specifically for Techno but also for many other styles of music. Furthermore, Sonata Form evolved out of (and superseded) the Fugue, so potentially there could even be something to learn from sonata form, although Techno and most popular genres are usually based on relatively simple counterpoint and “forms”.

G

 

[71 dB]

l

 

[71 dB]

Just reply to the people you *want* to talk with.

It's not so much "people" than it is subject and the way the subject is discussed making me want to post about (or not). Gregorio's posts often has taste for the need to show superiority: Gregorio knows everything and better than anyone else. He is God and we others are worthless loser who at best know something he know (when we 100 % agree with him). His posts often start with the rejection of the claims made by other: "No, you can't call a loop in techno a structure, but you could call it a structural element", as if all music scholars in the World have agreed to such a thing. I am sure there are many scholars who agrees with me a loop in techno could be called structure even if all scholars don't agree to that. Yes, scholars DO disagree with each other about music theory. So, yeah, my interest of "debating" with him is often weak, but it just feels stupid to not respond.

It is frustrating to be "told" all the time what I say is wrong. I have used a ton of time to study music theory, so when I open my mouth, what I say should be somewhat correct, but no! Gregorio keeps telling me how wrong I am in almost everything! I am so tired of people trying to kill the spirit and self-confidence of others.

 

[vergesslich22]

Maybe it's just the level of abstraction you're having a little argument about? I guess the term "structural element" could mean both the thing that is existing within a structure, and the method of combining the things. The same would apply for the term "loop"? Anyway, it's fascinating to read.

 

[gregorio]

Gregorio's posts often has taste for the need to show superiority: Gregorio knows everything and better than anyone else. He is God and we others are worthless loser who at best know something he know (when we 100 % agree with him).

Sure, an ad hominem attack is the way to respond though?

His posts often start with the rejection of the claims made by other: "No, you can't call a loop in techno a structure, but you could call it a structural element"

You maybe want me to agree with your assertion even though it’s wrong?

as if all music scholars in the World have agreed to such a thing. I am sure there are many scholars who agrees with me a loop in techno could be called structure even if all scholars don't agree to that.

A loop could be called “a structure” by some but it is not “the structure”. “Form” is the overall structure of a piece, the combination of all the structural elements/units, not just of one of the structures (structural elements) within the piece. I doubt any music theory scholar would fundamentally disagree with that! So, you were comparing apples to oranges, a structural element with a Form.

At least check you know the basic definition of “Musical Form” if you’re going to make assertions and argue about it, or don’t argue about it!

I have used a ton of time to study music theory, so when I open my mouth, what I say should be somewhat correct, but no!

I studied music theory for years, passed several exams in it and then went to a music conservatoire, studied it formally, had to pass about 7 pretty horrendous exams a year in music theory and still only knew certain parts of it moderately well. Music Theory covers around 1,000 years of history, millions of musicians and composers in numerous countries in hundreds of genres/subgenres, so no one knows it all but knowing what Musical Form means is pretty basic/fundamental.

G

 

[71 dB]

Anyway, it's fascinating to read.

Nice to hear something positive comes out of this.

 

[71 dB]

I studied music theory for years, passed several exams in it and then went to a music conservatoire, studied it formally, had to pass about 7 pretty horrendous exams a year in music theory and still only knew certain parts of it moderately well. Music Theory covers around 1,000 years of history, millions of musicians and composers in numerous countries in hundreds of genres/subgenres, so no one knows it all but knowing what Musical Form means is pretty basic/fundamental.

G

I'm sorry. I didn't know this. I thought you studied sound engineering. Anyway, even if I haven't studied music theory formally and not as much as you have, I can still know basic and even somewhat advanced music theory.