[Ghoostknight]

They can have to do with someone saying something to them and their mind preventing them from understanding what is being said

this has nothing todo with audible perception

or refusing to accept established facts because they don't want to believe.

"facts" that obviously dont apply to everyone ??

but yea i forgot, there is just one world-view, "the right one!" right?

 

[bigshot]

Mental acuity can help you sort out what you hear and what you just think you hear.

There is just one actual reality, but just about everyone creates their own reality in their own head. There are times when that's OK, and times when it's counter-productive. If you want to focus on the truth, you don't make up your mind, you apply controls, test and see what you come up with.

 

[Sam Spade]

in my book this just shows how short-minded the people are around here, because "they" cant hear a difference

Please don't use my position on mental illness to support your unfounded claims about 24/16 bit and your unwillingness to understand placebo

 

[castleofargh]

beside this, the grouping objectivist/subjectivist do is probably not the best either if we look at cults, mass suicides etc, imo this is specially the case with ASR or this science forum, if you never hear another opinion or are ignoring other opinions because it doesnt fit in your world view it gets pretty "cultish" imo

ASR is one guy with an audio analyzer, and that was enough to attract many people hungry for more than unreliable subjective reviews.
Because he’s just one guy testing one set of something, he’s going to make mistakes, witness things that don’t happen to others, and simply be wrong sometimes. Because he’s just one guy, there is a sort of cult following around him. Not his fault, there is such a cult for Shiit, and another for Chord right here on headfi, where the lead engineers could come and say the opposite of what they said 6 months ago, and their fans would most likely follow and agree both times regardless of the facts. If you look into the details, any brand, or even any appreciation thread has its own pack of zealots who will hate you for any critic against the product(even if it’s a well known, legitimate critic).
We’re the same of course, with a special excuse, we were forced by higher powers to group here if we wanted to talk about human biases and blind testing. Failing to do so would often make the messages and sometimes even the posters vanish into oblivion.

You carefully talk about opinions now, which is nice. We should have started there.
Decide on what you are trying to say and act accordingly. You can’t provide supporting evidence of what you have been hearing, but you could use listening methods to support the next attempt. Or stick to having no evidence from unconvincing methods, and stop getting mad when we bring up some of the reasons why we don’t take your statements seriously.
You can’t refuse to make the cake and eat it.

Also, for the billionth time(subjective quantity) on this forum, rejecting the hypothesis is not the same as claiming the opposite.

 

[bigshot]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them think. I don't think you can explain logic to people who don't want to think critically. They either think you're insulting them, or they assume you're like them and just dogmatic without foundation on the opposite extreme. This isn't about facts or even sound. It's about the need to prop up a sagging self esteem with bluff and bluster. He'll come back again and again until he feels like he's "won"... but he never feels that way.

 

[Ghoostknight]

I don't think you can explain logic to people who don't want to think critically.

logical thinking -is- trusting yourself, you hear a difference, why? not the opposite, reading some stuff from some dude online and taking them as "facts" , no matter if you hear a difference or not

He'll come back again and again until he feels like he's "won"... but he never feels that way.

im ok with not "winning" against some dudes online (how is this about winning???),
tho i still share my opinion, specially for those who just read one opinion in this sub forum and actually taking them as "facts"
the discussions it creates are kinda pointless most of the times so i usually just stop replying, there is nothing to gain from them but i guess you "won", right?

 

[Sam Spade]

logical thinking -is- trusting yourself, you hear a difference, why? not the opposite, reading some stuff from some dude online and taking them as "facts" , no matter if you hear a difference or not


im ok with not "winning" against some dudes online (how is this about winning???),
tho i still share my opinion, specially for those who just read one opinion in this sub forum and actually taking them as "facts"
the discussions it creates are kinda pointless most of the times so i usually just stop replying, there is nothing to gain from them but i guess you "won", right?

The solution is simple. Blind listening tests. I look forward to hearing your findings.

 

[gregorio]

the question imo is what do personality disorders have todo with hearing different/differences more then others?

That depends on how you define “personality disorders” and mental illness. Delusional Disorder is a mental illness: “Delusions are the main symptom of delusional disorder. They’re unshakable beliefs in something that isn’t true or based on reality… These delusions usually involve mistaken perceptions or experiences. But in reality, the situations are either not true at all or highly exaggerated.” - WebMD.com

The above quote explains what a “disorder has to do with hearing differences”, as hearing is a perception/experience and it also perfectly describes some/many audiophiles to a “T”!

Of course, nearly all humans are deluded about some thing/s and that’s commonly the goal of marketing, which clearly is very effective. So I’m not suggesting that nearly all humans have Delusional Disorder or even that many audiophiles do, it’s actually quite rare but as with some/many other mental disorders, it’s a matter of degree. Some degree is normal or near normal but beyond a threshold it’s diagnosed as a disorder, that obviously requires a specifically trained/experienced professional to determine, which I’m not.

logical thinking -is- trusting yourself, you hear a difference, why?

That’s a complete contradiction. “Logical thinking” is by definition trusting/considering logic, NOT yourself. The logical answer to your question is therefore one of the following options:

A. Because there is a difference, it is audible and you have the hearing acuity and listening skills to discern it.

B. There is no difference at all or the difference is inaudible but false marketing has deluded you into believing there is an audible difference, which has caused a “mistaken perception” of a difference.

C. There’s no audible difference but there is another sensory difference, say two different DACs look different or have significantly different prices, this conflict can be resolved by your brain changing what you think you’re hearing. EG. You perceive hearing a difference, to match your visual sense (and knowledge) that they are in fact different.

D. B and C above.

Trusting that you are hearing a difference, when you haven’t even reliably tested what you’re actually hearing (as opposed to perceiving) is the opposite of logical!!

G

 

[71 dB]

I don't think you can explain logic to people who don't want to think critically. They either think you're insulting them, or they assume you're like them and just dogmatic without foundation on the opposite extreme. This isn't about facts or even sound. It's about the need to prop up a sagging self esteem with bluff and bluster. He'll come back again and again until he feels like he's "won"... but he never feels that way.

People have literally different "operating systems" in their brain due to the different areas where they have the most blood circulation and other factors. We have different cognitive functions, but how much we use them compared to the other ones is dominated by these structural differencies in our brain. A "logical" person needs to have intuition or/and thinking functions high in the cognitive stack which means that feeling and sensing functions are lower. People who have sensing and feeling high in their cognitive stack are good at other things: They are typically good at things such as entertaining, sports, nursing, politics/diplomacy and protection.

Logical people often struggle with things such as: Social skills, taking account the feelings of other people/"reading the room", dealing with own feelings/fears and expressing them to others, dealing with intense sensory loads such as noisy environments and bright lights, dealing with certain sensations such as clothing textures and cold water on skin, controlling body to create complex series of movements such as dancing, etc.

By appreciating the skillset of non-logical people we logical people insult them less. Unfortunately doing this isn't an area we excel at.

 

[bigshot]

logical thinking -is- trusting yourself, you hear a difference, why?

No, logical thinking is removing yourself and your personal biases and perceptual errors from the equation and not asking why a difference exists until you've determined that a difference does actually exist. You haven't done that. You've jumped straight past the stage of gathering non-biased evidence to deciding that your biased impression is real. Logic has nothing to do with the way you're operating.

If you just said, "I don't know for sure- let's find out." and did a simple blind, level matched test, we wouldn't be arguing. You won't do that, so you won't know. All of us that you are arguing with have done that in the past. That's why we know.

71dB, being logical isn't biological at all. It's a process for solving problems that some people use and other people ignore. We're in control of how we process the information that comes in to us through our senses. Some people pay attention to the way they process that input, and some people don't. It's a choice. At times, everyone gets lazy about that. Magic tricks are magic because of that laziness.

Ghoostknight is an extreme case, because he isn't just intellectually lazy, he struggles to defend his misperception by defining it as "reality". That is where he crosses the line into delusion, not just misperceiving things. We all misperceive things, but we don't all believe our perception is infallible and post defenses of our misperception over and over in a forum dedicated to accurate perception. There's nothing for him to be gained here, yet he keeps doing it. That's either crazy or profoundly stupid. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. I tend to suspect that crazy people are drawn to the internet like moths to a flame.

 

[71 dB]

71dB, being logical isn't biological at all. It's a process for solving problems that some people use and other people ignore. We're in control of how we process the information that comes in to us through our senses. Some people pay attention to the way they process that input, and some people don't. It's a choice. At times, everyone gets lazy about that. Magic tricks are magic because of that laziness.

So, neuroscience doctor bigshot, are these links nonsense?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/personality-circuits/
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-32248-x
https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/personality-traits-linked-to-differences-in-brain-structure

Ghoostknight is an extreme case, because he isn't just intellectually lazy, he struggles to defend his misperception by defining it as "reality". That is where he crosses the line into delusion, not just misperceiving things. We all misperceive things, but we don't all believe our perception is infallible and post defenses of our misperception over and over in a forum dedicated to accurate perception. There's nothing for him to be gained here, yet he keeps doing it. That's either crazy or profoundly stupid. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. I tend to suspect that crazy people are drawn to the internet like moths to a flame.

Of course laziness is part of the picture, but it is easier and more natural for some people to be logical that for others just as it is easier for some people to become good at sports. That's why Albert Einstein won Noble prize in physics, but he didn't won Olympic Gold Medal in wrestling. His body type is wrong for a wrestler just as an Olympic Gold medalist doesn't have the intellectual capacity to create the theories of relativity. What we do and can do is partly tied to our biology.

 

[bigshot]

Logic isn't a personality type, it's a tool. Anyone can think logically. Someone may be predisposed to using that tool really well, but I think that is probably more because of upbringing than biology. I know I learned to think that way myself. I actually did self-study on that when I was in college. I discovered a paperback book from WW2 called "Propaganda Techniques" that broke down speeches by Father Coghlan, a Nazi sympathizer on the radio in the 1930s, and it flagged specific types of logical slips he was using. It assigned a symbol for each technique and then put the symbol next to every sentence in his speech that used it. Some paragraphs had dozens of symbols, more than one in each sentence! Great book. It led me to a study of logical fallacies, which led to researching how to break down problems logically.

Being predisposed to literal thinking isn't an advantage in life. A logical process for solving problems is. You have to learn that, just like driving a car or writing a book. At the other end of the spectrum, being completely illogical probably is related to some sort of personality disorder, or just lack of brain wattage. More often than not, that's what we deal with in this forum.

 

[Davesrose]

So, neuroscience doctor bigshot, are these links nonsense?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/personality-circuits/
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-32248-x
https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/personality-traits-linked-to-differences-in-brain-structure

Your links don’t list “logical” as a personality type. There is “conscientiousness”, measure of self control. Of course neuroscience has known for a long time that there are different centers in the brain that influence behavior. Everyone has some unique pathways from grey and white matter, and also structure of each center in the brain. Phineas Gage was an early case, where doctors recorded his behavior change after having an accident with a railroad spike damaging his left frontal side. Modern scientists have been able to extrapolate what areas of his brain were damaged from his preserved skull.

 

[Ryokan]

People should always

Phineas Gage was an early case, where doctors recorded his behavior change after having an accident with a railroad spike damaging his left frontal side. Modern scientists have been able to extrapolate what areas of his brain were damaged from his preserved skull.

Juluis Caesar was another who changed personality after a blow to the head, it made him almost superhuman, he once briefly stood alone against an army before his soldiers saw him and rallied. Also Henry VIII, but he became grumpy and irritable.

 

[71 dB]

Your links don’t list “logical” as a personality type. There is “conscientiousness”, measure of self control. Of course neuroscience has known for a long time that there are different centers in the brain that influence behavior. Everyone has some unique pathways from grey and white matter, and also structure of each center in the brain. Phineas Gage was an early case, where doctors recorded his behavior change after having an accident with a railroad spike damaging his left frontal side. Modern scientists have been able to extrapolate what areas of his brain were damaged from his preserved skull.

logical is not a personality type! It is what some personality types are more than others. The point of those links is to show (to bigshot) that our personality types and cognitive functions are tied to the structure of our brains.