[gregorio]

I think amirm means the tracks that are imported to DAW are 24 bit, not the internal processing bit depth of a DAW.

The channels are in 24bit format but of course the actual recorded material is far fewer bits than that. After the initial tracking, all the subsequent processing, balancing and mixing occurs in the 64bit mix environment though, so the mix is 64bit float but of course we can't export that.

With EVERYTHING TURNED UP TO A CONTINUOUS NOISE SO AN ACOUSTIC GUITAR STRING IS THE SAME LEVEL AS A SNARE DRUM

You seem to be missing the point and then hilariously stating that others don't understand your posts. An acoustic guitar string is significantly louder than an electric guitar string but I don't hear anyone complaining when an electric guitar is massively distorted, compressed and brought up to the same level as a snare drum. No one here, including bigshot, is arguing for the loudness war or massive over-compression, some of us have been arguing against it far longer than you. It's been an issue since well before pirated MP3s were common and has been very popular with the vast majority of consumers, which is why record companies continued to do it and why it didn't just die to start with! The problem is that it's impossible to quantify what is over-compression, a perfectly acceptable amount of compression for one song might be ridiculous over-compression in another. Some entire genres require several applications of heavy compression, others virtually none whatsoever. And incidentally, Mastered for iTunes does NOT stipulate appropriate amounts of compression or directly affects/combats the loudness war.

It seems you yourself have relatively little understanding of the issue and are confused, best then not to accuse others of what you are guilty of!

G

 

[reginalb]

Can you prove that? I get lots of customers on a daily basis who say 'nothing, not even CD, sounds quite like vinyl'. You must be a squasher-ehem, cough! - 'mastering' engineer also. (facepalm!)

All I have to do is look at how many exclusives on vinyl they get at Urban Outfitters. I am not an engineer, and attached no value judgement to my statement, so calm yourself down. I understand business, and all you have to do is look at how vinyl is marketed to understand where the sales are happening.

In 2016, vinyl record sales hit a 25 year high, with 3.2 million sold. Spotify alone has 100 million users and 30 million paid users. Apple has another 30 million users for Apple Music, Deezer has over 3 million, Tidal is north of a million users, And Google Play Music is somewhere in there as well, though they don't say how many they have. So, you're talking ~140 million people streaming music, vs. 3.2 million records sold in a year. Since the average owner will buy more than one record, you're looking at a number of people actively using records in the hundreds of thousands.

I'd wager the evidence points to streaming as the future of music. And it makes sense. With Play Music All Access, I can often choose from multiple masters, I can upload for streaming 50,000 of my own songs, and have access to a vast library of music for a monthly cost instead of having to buy individual albums. For me, that does mean vinyl - since I have more "music money" leftover. I own a turntable, but it's because I think it's fun to collect and use records, not because I've deluded myself in to thinking that it's somehow better than other formats.

I also get my hands on multichannel mixes whenever I can, I made sure to get a Blu-ray player that supports SACD, so that I can play any type of multichannel audio I come across. Unlike other audiophiles, though, I don't pretend that my preferences are the same as the market as a whole. They just aren't.

 

[71 dB]

HiFi used to be something people aspired to because it sounded good. The industry was never that careful about the source but the novelty of the CD and the old engineering skill to avoid clipping lasted for quite a few years until todays Master Manglers. With EVERYTHING TURNED UP TO A CONTINUOUS NOISE SO AN ACOUSTIC GUITAR STRING IS THE SAME LEVEL AS A SNARE DRUM PEOPLE DON"T NEED TO BOTHER WITH HIFI OR MUSIC COLLECTIONS, I MEAN WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT WHEN ALL THE MUSIC IS THE SAME MANGLED WALL OF NOISE THAT NO ONE CARES ABOUT ANYMORE?

I hope you get your caps lock fixed. Meanwhile please look at the waveform below. It's a track from a CD opened in Audacity. You probably think it must be a CD from year 1985 or so, because it looks so dynamic and there's no sign of "brickwall compression" at all. This is a CD that was recorded in 2010-11 and released in 2011. It's not the most dynamic "newer" CD I have. It's the latest CD I bought. The track is the shortest one on the CD and perhaps not the most dynamic one. This CD won't sell millions of copies like Norah Jones does, but a few thousands. It's not very commercial. It is Joseph Schwantner's orchestral music on Naxos (8.559678). So, just to show you that there are dynamic new CDs out there if you bother the look beyond the most popular artists/music.

 

[Darren G]

One of the first CD's I bought as an early adopter was the 1812 Overture. The CD came with a warning sticker, the cannons are loud, be careful.

So I had my horn speakers, > 100db sensitivity rating, and yes they can play loud. If I had any real gripe with the CD it would have been that most of the recording was mastered down there at the lowest significant bits to leave room for the cannons, and my first generation CD player's DAC was not so great.

Gads, what a mess when the cannons fire. My speakers, that I believed to be quite competent, distorted to an extreme, and there was nothing enjoyable about it. My ears literally hurt. I didn't measure the absolute SPL, but the point is I simply don't listen at those levels anymore. These days it is extremely rare I listen at even 80db. Once or twice a year I'll go listen to live music, or a DJ playing music at levels that leave my ears ringing, but rarely.

 

[TheSonicTruth]

All I have to do is look at how many exclusives on vinyl they get at Urban Outfitters. I am not an engineer, and attached no value judgement to my statement, so calm yourself down. I understand business, and all you have to do is look at how vinyl is marketed to understand where the sales are happening.

In 2016, vinyl record sales hit a 25 year high, with 3.2 million sold. Spotify alone has 100 million users and 30 million paid users. Apple has another 30 million users for Apple Music, Deezer has over 3 million, Tidal is north of a million users, And Google Play Music is somewhere in there as well, though they don't say how many they have. So, you're talking ~140 million people streaming music, vs. 3.2 million records sold in a year. Since the average owner will buy more than one record, you're looking at a number of people actively using records in the hundreds of thousands.

I'd wager the evidence points to streaming as the future of music. And it makes sense. With Play Music All Access, I can often choose from multiple masters, I can upload for streaming 50,000 of my own songs, and have access to a vast library of music for a monthly cost instead of having to buy individual albums. For me, that does mean vinyl - since I have more "music money" leftover. I own a turntable, but it's because I think it's fun to collect and use records, not because I've deluded myself in to thinking that it's somehow better than other formats.

I also get my hands on multichannel mixes whenever I can, I made sure to get a Blu-ray player that supports SACD, so that I can play any type of multichannel audio I come across. Unlike other audiophiles, though, I don't pretend that my preferences are the same as the market as a whole. They just aren't.

As long as you don't confuse me with an audiophile. The very root of that word is 'lover of sound' as, in love with how something sounds on a piece of equipment, not necessarily with the music or artist themself. I want the music to sound like the music, not just to sound good on a particular chain.

As far as both multi-channel and high res go, they are mere gimmicks to me, until artists know what a good album sounds like, not all squashed and regained up to twelve!

Enjoy your millennial streaming habits. I prefer a physical collection at home, where I can weed out the 'remasters'(both CDs and video) and control my content. With streaming, I can't control the quality as regularly, and until streaming gets up to the rates of physical digital audio, it will continue to be a second fiddle, an auditioning stage for me, to decide what I want in physical format.

 

[TheSonicTruth]

One of the first CD's I bought as an early adopter was the 1812 Overture. The CD came with a warning sticker, the cannons are loud, be careful.

So I had my horn speakers, > 100db sensitivity rating, and yes they can play loud. If I had any real gripe with the CD it would have been that most of the recording was mastered down there at the lowest significant bits to leave room for the cannons, and my first generation CD player's DAC was not so great.

Gads, what a mess when the cannons fire. My speakers, that I believed to be quite competent, distorted to an extreme, and there was nothing enjoyable about it. My ears literally hurt. I didn't measure the absolute SPL, but the point is I simply don't listen at those levels anymore. These days it is extremely rare I listen at even 80db. Once or twice a year I'll go listen to live music, or a DJ playing music at levels that leave my ears ringing, but rarely.

Stick a pair of 6 or 12dB Harrison Labs attenuators into the CD/Aux inputs of your amp or receiver, like I did, and you'll wonder why you never thought of doing so. CD listening for me has never been more objective and enjoyable since buying them, and the attenuators add nothing to change the sound, other than that you need to set the volume a bit higher to achieve your usual listening level.

I am comfortable that nothing, at least inside my receiver, is clipped or distorted. I cannot, however, speak for the DACs in my player, when presented with a modern hot-mess mastered CD. I finally settled on 12dBs for the CD and phono, and 6db for audio out of my DVD and Bluray(yes, I still RCA out, and am damned proud of it!)

 

[Darren G]

I will keep going to hear live music, because hey, I enjoy those those low bass notes without small room interference, but I've given up on home audio sounding like live. Home audio sounds good these days, but there at least three (3) details no home audio experience can re-create (yet) -

1.) A really big room.
2.) I can turn my head and the sound adjusts in real 3-D as it should.
3.) The crowd energy. Music is more enjoyable when others are enjoying it too.

Home audio is already so good that there is not much else to add, and a few smaller additions, still isn't as good as live.

 

[bigshot]

Why? Because he works in the business, turning what his clients are paying him to. If I were in bigshot's shoes, I'd be collecting government support because as an engineer I would not be willing to destroy music that way for the sake of sheer loudness!

Have you ever worked in the business, or did you cut to the chase and go straight to the dole?

By the way, I can recommend many CDs that are well engineered and sound great. If your musical tastes can extend beyond pop, there's a whole world of great music and great sound to explore. I think you guys are listening to the wrong stuff. Complaining about pop music because it's not audiophile is like going to McDonalds and insisting on wine with your meal.

Stick a pair of 6 or 12dB Harrison Labs attenuators into the CD/Aux inputs of your amp or receiver, like I did, and you'll wonder why you never thought of doing so.

The problem with the Mercury 1812 Overture isn't just level and it isn't clipping either. It's that the cannon puts out peak level sub bass at a volume well above the full orchestra. It was recorded separately from the orchestra and bells, but when they mixed it, they put it in at a very realistic level. You have to have VERY good speakers and a very strong amp to avoid having the speakers spit through the sub bass. It's easier to play if you have a subwoofer designed to reproduce those super low frequencies very loud.

As far as both multi-channel and high res go, they are mere gimmicks to me.

"A mere bag of shells!"

Cutestudio, have you had a chance to check out that article in my sig yet?

 

[bigshot]

I will keep going to hear live music, because hey, I enjoy those those low bass notes without small room interference, but I've given up on home audio sounding like live. Home audio sounds good these days, but there at least three (3) details no home audio experience can re-create (yet) -

1.) A really big room.
2.) I can turn my head and the sound adjusts in real 3-D as it should.
3.) The crowd energy. Music is more enjoyable when others are enjoying it too.

1 & 2 are perfectly possible if you have a good sized listening room and a 5.1 system. For 3, you have to invite a bunch of friends over!

 

[Darren G]

Love your posts bigshot. It's clear you love music, and that is what it's all about Looking forward to reading your posts.

p.s. love the deep bass and energy some DJs and musicians pull off, and my home system just cannot do this.

 

[bigshot]

If you ever get to Los Angeles look me up and I'll demo my system for you. I can play you some stuff that makes you think you're at a live show. By the way, if you like Zappa get the new Halloween 77 CD. It's one of the best live recordings I've ever heard.

 

[reginalb]

Norah Jones's The Fall is jazz/blues and probably has the worst clipping damage of any modern tracks today.
The 'whole new level' of audio quality on multichannel sound is due to a simple lack of attention (and therefore mangling) of the source.

The Fall is pop, sir. That's not an insult, it's one of my favorite albums, but it's certainly pop. With that said, if you like Norah and want less compressed versions, you can pick up the SACD box set from somewhere like Acoustic Sounds, it's mastered differently:

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Norah+Jones&album=The+Fall (I provided the third measurement down, btw).

 

[TheSonicTruth]

Have you ever worked in the business, or did you cut to the chase and go straight to the dole?

By the way, I can recommend many CDs that are well engineered and sound great. If your musical tastes can extend beyond pop, there's a whole world of great music and great sound to explore. I think you guys are listening to the wrong stuff. Complaining about pop music because it's not audiophile is like going to McDonalds and insisting on wine with your meal.



The problem with the Mercury 1812 Overture isn't just level and it isn't clipping either. It's that the cannon puts out peak level sub bass at a volume well above the full orchestra. It was recorded separately from the orchestra and bells, but when they mixed it, they put it in at a very realistic level. You have to have VERY good speakers and a very strong amp to avoid having the speakers spit through the sub bass. It's easier to play if you have a subwoofer designed to reproduce those super low frequencies very loud.



"A mere bag of shells!"

Cutestudio, have you had a chance to check out that article in my sig yet?

Pop stuff from the 1980s and prior was dynamically compressed, but on an as-needed basis and certain not squashed and buzz-cut as stuff from after 2000 has been! No wonder people think old vinyl sounds better!

You're right about a sub or bi-amped solution for that 1812 though.

 

[TheSonicTruth]

If you ever get to Los Angeles look me up and I'll demo my system for you. I can play you some stuff that makes you think you're at a live show. By the way, if you like Zappa get the new Halloween 77 CD. It's one of the best live recordings I've ever heard.

Thanks for the suggestions. In general I avoid(but have almost mistakenly bought!!) 'live albums'. Kiss 'Alive' and 'Frampton Comes Alive' are my two exceptions. Otherwise, if I wanted live sound, I'd save up some dough and go to a concert.

 

[bigshot]

Pop stuff from the 1980s and prior was dynamically compressed, but on an as-needed basis and certain not squashed and buzz-cut as stuff from after 2000 has been!

Have you ever heard The Rolling Stones' Beggar's Banquet? There are songs on there that are massively compressed and clipped deliberately.

Kiss? Frampton Comes Alive?

wow. maybe the quality of the sound isn't the problem.