24bit vs 16bit, the myth exploded!
Mar 11, 2015 at 11:08 PM Post #2,941 of 7,175

Oh good, I'll have to check they've credited my card with all the charges they made for the hi res files that weren't or maybe they'll invite me to download the "proper" files for free.
Note to self, "don't hold your breath".
That statement they've made is total bovine excrement, I still see at least a dozen albums that can't possibly be what they say they are and that without looking too hard.
 
Mar 11, 2015 at 11:13 PM Post #2,942 of 7,175
 At the very beginning of HDtracks due to our naivete we released a very few amount of albums that were not up to par with our hi-res designation.  This was due to hi-res audio being a very new thing, miscommunication between us and labels, us not doing our due diligence and a few other reasons.  Since then we have gone above and beyond to make sure we put out the very best product possible and test each and every file.  And in cases like the Beck album we give as much information as humanly possible to put forth all the information we have, so you the consumer can make an educated decision.

Wow, so in other words, they started their business with zero expertise, knowledge, or care about what they were doing, and made it up on the fly.  And using the fact that "hi-res audio [was] a very new thing" as an excuse is another way of saying that they couldn't tell the difference between hi-res and "normal" tracks.  Doesn't give one much reason to think they're selling anything but snake oil.
 
Mar 11, 2015 at 11:20 PM Post #2,943 of 7,175
 As you can see on this thread alone their are people who are very happy with the sound of the Beck album, once again because music is subjective and HDtracks is not going to take that away.

 
And more digital packing peanuts filling up the file size isn't going to make it any better either! Subjective impressions of the music are up to Beck, and Kanye has something to say about that!
 
Mar 11, 2015 at 11:57 PM Post #2,944 of 7,175
Such a wonderful marketing answer that I would be proud of. So many paragraphs written without actually stating that their 24 bit files are actually recorded and mastered in 24 bit. Such complicated information to get from such busy studios.... ah me....
 
Mar 12, 2015 at 3:08 PM Post #2,945 of 7,175
Really sorry if this has been covered, but I have two questions. 
 
If I understand correctly, the bit size (16/24) is relative to the db range the music has. Would it not be possible that 24bit can fit into the same db range but perhaps with more accuracy? Certainly, we don't want music playing at 150db, but perhaps that 60 or so db range can have more detail using 24 bit, something like over sourcing I guess?
 
for resolution. I was actually thinking before I read it "I wonder if they use 44k to cover the 22kHz range in music - that could cover both wavelengths." Turns out it seems right. Though, I would wonder if perhaps 96k resolution may be better to pick up off phase sounds (if I said that correctly) and not so much for playback of higher frequencies that we can't possibly hear. Rather, higher resolution just the same as a picture, more detail within the hearing range we do have.
 
If anything I'm thinking applies or makes sense, I would suppose that 24/96 is ideal. Though both arguments pretty much say the same thing, more detail within the range we do listen to and not so much used to extend beyond that range. I would think, being a digital format, it couldn't possibly merrit every single bit of range  either frequency or decibel output, just close enough that one would have a very hard time pointing it out. Would that make any sense or am I completely off base? 
 
Mar 12, 2015 at 3:56 PM Post #2,946 of 7,175
  Really sorry if this has been covered, but I have two questions. 
 
If I understand correctly, the bit size (16/24) is relative to the db range the music has. Would it not be possible that 24bit can fit into the same db range but perhaps with more accuracy? Certainly, we don't want music playing at 150db, but perhaps that 60 or so db range can have more detail using 24 bit, something like over sourcing I guess?
 
for resolution. I was actually thinking before I read it "I wonder if they use 44k to cover the 22kHz range in music - that could cover both wavelengths." Turns out it seems right. Though, I would wonder if perhaps 96k resolution may be better to pick up off phase sounds (if I said that correctly) and not so much for playback of higher frequencies that we can't possibly hear. Rather, higher resolution just the same as a picture, more detail within the hearing range we do have.
 
If anything I'm thinking applies or makes sense, I would suppose that 24/96 is ideal. Though both arguments pretty much say the same thing, more detail within the range we do listen to and not so much used to extend beyond that range. I would think, being a digital format, it couldn't possibly merrit every single bit of range  either frequency or decibel output, just close enough that one would have a very hard time pointing it out. Would that make any sense or am I completely off base? 

 
As far as bit depth, it gets easier to understand what's going on if you view it as a rounding problem. You have some set of continuous voltages taken at snapshots in time that you need to round to some number the computer can understand. This means that your final sampled signals can be seen as:
sample = actual + rounding
Thus the frequency content of the final sample will be the frequency content of the un-rounded samples plus the frequency content of the rounding (quantization) error. So we need to understand what the frequency content of the rounding looks like and we're done. The general result is that for high amplitude signals, the rounding frequency content looks basically like noise, and is many dB down from the actual signal. As the signal amplitude gets lower, it starts to look more like harmonic distortion and it gets relatively louder compared to the sample. The number of bits reduces the rounding error: you can get closer to the exact value. This gives you a larger dynamic range before you start to see the distortion errors, and means that the noise is at a lower level in general relative to the signal.
 
As far as higher sample rates for "off-phase" sound, is this the kind of thing you are talking about?
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/time-resolution-of-red-book-45ns.85436/
 
Mar 12, 2015 at 5:27 PM Post #2,947 of 7,175
  Really sorry if this has been covered, but I have two questions. 
 
If I understand correctly, the bit size (16/24) is relative to the db range the music has. Would it not be possible that 24bit can fit into the same db range but perhaps with more accuracy? Certainly, we don't want music playing at 150db, but perhaps that 60 or so db range can have more detail using 24 bit, something like over sourcing I guess?
 
for resolution. I was actually thinking before I read it "I wonder if they use 44k to cover the 22kHz range in music - that could cover both wavelengths." Turns out it seems right. Though, I would wonder if perhaps 96k resolution may be better to pick up off phase sounds (if I said that correctly) and not so much for playback of higher frequencies that we can't possibly hear. Rather, higher resolution just the same as a picture, more detail within the hearing range we do have.
 
If anything I'm thinking applies or makes sense, I would suppose that 24/96 is ideal. Though both arguments pretty much say the same thing, more detail within the range we do listen to and not so much used to extend beyond that range. I would think, being a digital format, it couldn't possibly merrit every single bit of range  either frequency or decibel output, just close enough that one would have a very hard time pointing it out. Would that make any sense or am I completely off base? 


I'll try the dumb explanation as that's the only way I can think ^_^.
let's say one sound is a wave, another sound is another wave, when a band is playing you record only one signal accumulating all the waves. you know like ripples on the surface of water that will add up or cancel each others so that the surface at one point is always only at one position. same for the album, the signal is always only at only 1 amplitude at a time, however how many instruments are recorded.
 when the music is recorded on 16bit instead of 24bit, you end up with each sample slightly different from the original, that difference to us is as if another instrument had been added to the playing band. it doesn't change how the band sounds, just like if you added one more guitar in the mix, the singer would still sing the same way, but the signal would be modified.
that's the magic of audio, quantization errors don't change the music, they just add some noise to the music.
now does it matter? well that noise on a 16bit track is 96DB quieter than the max signal, so even with some headroom on the record, you can expect the noise to be a good 90db below the music. remember that the quietest part of the song will rarely go 60db below the max loudness. so you pretty much end up with a slight hiss some 30db below the quietest sound recorded on the most dynamic album you own. that's how dramatic 16/44 really is ^_^.
 
you don't improve music, with highres you only improve the silence really. on both resolutions the music itself will be perfectly reproduced down to the quietest sound.
going to 24bit reduces the error value of the samples, so you end up with the band playing and now some noise at -144db(in theory at least) instead of -96. but it changes nothing to the sound of the band. that's the crazy cool thing about sound.
 
and getting higher sample rate can yield the same kind of result, be it in time error or in noise(both are linked for waves). it is factually better, but could you actually hear the noise on a 16/44 track? if you could, then highres might be justified, if you couldn't(like everybody at normal listening level) you're only improving something you don't hear and most likely are paying premium price for that.
 
Mar 12, 2015 at 5:37 PM Post #2,948 of 7,175
 
for resolution. I was actually thinking before I read it "I wonder if they use 44k to cover the 22kHz range in music - that could cover both wavelengths." Turns out it seems right. Though, I would wonder if perhaps 96k resolution may be better to pick up off phase sounds (if I said that correctly) and not so much for playback of higher frequencies that we can't possibly hear. Rather, higher resolution just the same as a picture, more detail within the hearing range we do have.
 

 
Phase is essentially a matter of timing, and as PCM (whether 16/44.1, 24/96 or whatever) doesn't really have a temporal resolution (there are no discrete steps), as it has for amplitude, it isn't really a problem.
You can sample at 16kHz (typical VoIP), there still isn't a limit to temporal resolution. The only limit is the number of cycles per second (Hz) the transmitted sound can contain, namely half the frequency rate.
 
Mar 12, 2015 at 8:52 PM Post #2,949 of 7,175
Quantization and jitter.. makes a lot more sense now (followed that link, explained jitter perfectly)
 
Now trying to understand the jitter. I would think at 44k, that would allow up to 22k jitter, 0.0022s (been a long time since I've done math). Supposedly we can hear 200ps of jitter? I can't figure how that math correlates.
 
Mar 12, 2015 at 9:10 PM Post #2,950 of 7,175
I've written at length about quantization and jitter somewhere between pages 50 and 100 of this thread :)  And so have others.  Search my posts.
 
The bottom line is you can run in circles on all the mathematics all you want there is not enough information available to prove mathematically whether quantization error is audible at 16 bit.  Jitter is independent of 24 vs 16 bits, but it is a component of total quantization error.  Jitter is also one of the most common audiophile red herrings, just before (or after?) silver cables.
 
So in the end you only have blind listening tests to go by.  And that's a different can of nice round plump juicy worms.
 
Mar 12, 2015 at 9:18 PM Post #2,951 of 7,175
  Quantization and jitter.. makes a lot more sense now (followed that link, explained jitter perfectly)
 
Now trying to understand the jitter. I would think at 44k, that would allow up to 22k jitter, 0.0022s (been a long time since I've done math). Supposedly we can hear 200ps of jitter? I can't figure how that math correlates.

 
As stated in my sig...
Don't be fooled by the jitter scam. Real world level of jitters are inaudible. Study here: https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ast/26/1/26_1_50/_pdf
 
Mar 12, 2015 at 9:24 PM Post #2,952 of 7,175
Mar 12, 2015 at 9:52 PM Post #2,953 of 7,175
Kinda what I thought. I will fully admit I can't really tell you the difference between flac 16/44 and anything better, I always chalk it up to better mastering.
 
Mar 13, 2015 at 12:09 AM Post #2,954 of 7,175

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