24bit vs 16bit, the myth exploded!

[vatch]

The real summary is that it 24 bit doesn't really improve on 16 for playback.

 

[board]

Surprised to see this thread still going strong for 10 years . I was recently trying to get a better grasp on 24bit since qobuzz is cheaper than tidal now

Yes, ten years and the argument is still the same:
"I can easily hear a difference"
"No, you can't. You may believe you can't, but if you take a 24 bit file and convert it to 16 bit (instead of taking two different masters) and do a blind test you will see that you can't hear a difference."
"I don't need to do a blind test. I know what I heard. An amazing improvement I tell you!"
":-/"

The argument never stops. I honestly don't know why I even bother trying to help educate people who have no interest in becoming wiser.

 

[chef8489]

Yes, ten years and the argument is still the same:
"I can easily hear a difference"
"No, you can't. You may believe you can't, but if you take a 24 bit file and convert it to 16 bit (instead of taking two different masters) and do a blind test you will see that you can't hear a difference."
"I don't need to do a blind test. I know what I heard. An amazing improvement I tell you!"
":-/"

The argument never stops. I honestly don't know why I even bother trying to help educate people who have no interest in becoming wiser.

That's because people dont want to believe more is not better. Same with the discussion about digital cables changing the sound.

 

[ALRAINBOW]

Last post of course we can if you have a setup to show it.
I can tell flac from AIFF To but hey I’m crazy I guess. Even if I take a flac fie and convert or to AIFF it’s obvious but I’m an old deaf guy what do I know. Stop using math and listen for once

 

[castleofargh]

Last post of course we can if you have a setup to show it.
I can tell flac from AIFF To but hey I’m crazy I guess. Even if I take a flac fie and convert or to AIFF it’s obvious but I’m an old deaf guy what do I know. Stop using math and listen for once

"Confidence is a feeling, which reflects the coherence of the information and the cognitive ease of processing it. It is wise to take admissions of uncertainty seriously, but declarations of high confidence mainly tell you that an individual has constructed a coherent story in his mind, not necessarily that the story is true."
Daniel Kahneman. Thinking, Fast and Slow

you clearly could learn a lot about yourself by reading that book. there's an audiobook version but I doubt they have it in hires.

 

[board]

Last post of course we can if you have a setup to show it.
I can tell flac from AIFF To but hey I’m crazy I guess. Even if I take a flac fie and convert or to AIFF it’s obvious but I’m an old deaf guy what do I know. Stop using math and listen for once

Please provide the logs of the ABX tests you've passed of files properly converted from 24 to 16 bits, made from the same master (not two different files from different sources) as well as ABX tests of files converted from FLAC to AIFF. Until you do, your claims haven't been backed up and are only talk.

I'll be a good sport and show you what I mean:
Here's one of my claims: I can tell certain phono preamps apart.
My proof:

Cambridge CP1 vs. Parasound Zphono:

foo_abx 2.0.2 report
foobar2000 v1.3.10
2016-07-03 09:39:16

File A: Fleetwood Mac Cambridge BØJET pickup - oprindelig justering.wav
SHA1: b0c9656b8820fe8ea94af52706316e627e6e2966
File B: Fleetwood Mac Parasound JUSTERET PICKUP.wav
SHA1: b79c8cdf744c1b6f6554af5d57559469f943195d

Output:
DS : Primær lyddriver
Crossfading: NO

09:39:16 : Test started.
09:43:21 : 01/01
09:43:51 : 02/02
09:44:33 : 03/03
09:45:09 : 04/04
09:45:56 : 05/05
09:46:35 : 06/06
09:47:14 : 07/07
09:47:51 : 08/08
09:48:17 : 09/09
09:49:44 : 10/10
09:50:21 : 11/11
09:50:40 : 12/12
09:51:13 : 13/13
09:51:54 : 14/14
09:52:29 : 15/15
09:52:40 : 16/16
09:52:40 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 16/16
Probability that you were guessing: 0.0%

-- signature --
96dd782fe77de0830762d5e78d9a11dda41eb60e




Parasound Zphono vs. Lejonklou Gaia:


foo_abx 2.0 report
foobar2000 v1.3.7
2015-10-06 13:17:47

File A: side 1 UDDRAG.wav
SHA1: 9ccf3ce0d2a31dbb34a2aed114702eb5288d34db
File B: Burzum - Det som DÅRLIG side 1 UDDRAG.wav
SHA1: 4d8c084287e6b3f31d1a5af67e5e9662c701142f

Output:
DS : Primær lyddriver
Crossfading: NO

13:17:47 : Test started.
13:18:34 : 01/01
13:18:51 : 02/02
13:19:07 : 03/03
13:19:35 : 04/04
13:19:45 : 05/05
13:19:57 : 06/06
13:20:09 : 07/07
13:20:16 : 08/08
13:20:26 : 09/09
13:20:37 : 10/10
13:20:55 : 11/11
13:21:05 : 12/12
13:21:14 : 13/13
13:21:37 : 14/14
13:21:50 : 15/15
13:22:29 : 16/16
13:23:09 : 17/17
13:23:50 : 18/18
13:24:03 : 19/19
13:24:14 : 20/20
13:24:14 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 20/20
Probability that you were guessing: 0.0%

-- signature --
f6ffb9de2b47498c7381a271ff9db90bf942d90a




Parasound Zphono vs. NAD PP-4:


foo_abx 2.0.2 report
foobar2000 v1.3.10
2016-10-13 18:12:03

File A: R.E.M. - Out of time - side 1 - EQ (shelf +1 dB ved 5 kHz) - 2.wav
SHA1: 23a0440def43f1c62fb030409bcfa5e9e492efb4
File B: REM - 2 EQ 1 (+1 dB ved 5 kHz) - volumen justeret til NAD + timestretch.wav
SHA1: 0fb5e4694d578ef95d2f3e2370b597586baf713e

Output:
DS : Primær lyddriver
Crossfading: YES

18:12:03 : Test started.
18:13:16 : 01/01
18:13:58 : 02/02
18:14:40 : 03/03
18:15:23 : 04/04
18:15:51 : 05/05
18:18:00 : 06/06
18:18:34 : 07/07
20:26:20 : 08/08
20:26:52 : 09/09
20:28:37 : 10/10
20:28:54 : 11/11
20:29:15 : 12/12
20:29:58 : 13/13
20:30:57 : 14/14
20:32:05 : 15/15
20:32:46 : 16/16
20:32:46 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 16/16
Probability that you were guessing: 0.0%

-- signature --
d178d3bb69b4f0c12805b545e09660821cf40fc6




NAD PP-4 vs. Cambridge CP1:

foo_abx 2.0.2 report
foobar2000 v1.3.10
2017-04-16 12:58:28

File A: Beatles Sgt. Pepper NY CAMBRIDGE JUSTERET PICKUP - Titelnummer.wav
SHA1: 05f44088f182bd182bd0fe0ca2e6369e0c1cf3b3
File B: Beatles - Sgt. Peppers - TITELNUMMER.wav
SHA1: 5832ac7467a8765572df760f156116dd558898c9

Output:
DS : Primær lyddriver
Crossfading: NO

12:58:28 : Test started.
13:00:01 : 01/01
13:03:56 : 02/02
13:04:11 : 02/03
13:04:29 : 03/04
13:04:39 : 04/05
13:04:48 : 05/06
13:05:25 : 05/07
13:05:42 : 06/08
13:05:53 : 06/09
13:06:19 : 07/10
13:07:26 : 08/11
13:07:35 : 09/12
13:08:13 : 10/13
13:09:11 : 11/14
13:09:57 : 12/15
13:10:58 : 13/16
13:10:58 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 13/16
Probability that you were guessing: 1.1%

-- signature --
0214dcadd6acef8e8b803e16b08149fc72cbf29a


As you can see, the last test I "passed" with much less confidence. It was easily the most difficult one.

Here's a completely different, but more relevant, claim:
I can't tell hi-rez (24/96) apart from standard CD resolution.
My proof from the AIX hi-res challenge in August 2018:



foo_abx 2.0 report
foobar2000 v1.3.7
2018-08-21 21:27:30

File A: Tune_1_A.wav
SHA1: a172a18acd31bde18e70254654eb3d6a62a98869
File B: Tune_1_B.wav
SHA1: 23140e6544890298339f2a1de731f972a0285283

Output:
DS : Højttalere (CA USB Audio)
Crossfading: YES

21:27:30 : Test started.
21:38:15 : 00/01
21:39:02 : 00/02
21:40:15 : 00/03
21:41:35 : 01/04
21:45:51 : 02/05
21:47:17 : 02/06
21:48:20 : 03/07
21:49:10 : 03/08
22:00:04 : 03/09
22:01:08 : 04/10
22:02:23 : 04/11
22:04:27 : 05/12
22:06:39 : 06/13
22:07:30 : 06/14
22:08:32 : 06/15
22:09:46 : 07/16
22:09:46 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 7/16
Probability that you were guessing: 77.3%

-- signature --
215bc93fd1e452bd483b437ca134ee648c1c035a




and:


foo_abx 2.0 report
foobar2000 v1.3.7
2018-08-22 20:11:00

File A: Tune_3_A.wav
SHA1: e4db0c5771607dd8cf1a2b629cb7dcbff593ef37
File B: Tune_3_B.wav
SHA1: 990af2551ff3a9fa1a6af0ed5b1773705464866d

Output:
DS : Højttalere (CA USB Audio)
Crossfading: YES

20:11:00 : Test started.
20:15:29 : 00/01
20:17:03 : 00/02
20:18:47 : 00/03
20:20:18 : 00/04
20:22:19 : 01/05
20:23:38 : 02/06
20:24:58 : 03/07
20:26:42 : 04/08
20:28:12 : 05/09
20:29:28 : 06/10
20:31:01 : 06/11
20:32:19 : 06/12
20:33:36 : 06/13
20:35:45 : 06/14
20:36:48 : 06/15
20:39:45 : 07/16
20:39:45 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 7/16
Probability that you were guessing: 77.3%

-- signature --
b38c3f450663f07a9cd2879b9ac225faf53cb198



And I'll double down on the last claim: I can't tell hi-res apart from standard CD resolution, and my claim is that so can NO ONE ELSE, as long as the test was level-matched and properly conducted (meaning, properly converted and files were time-aligned, enough trials (at least 10-12), etc.).
No one who claims to be able to hear the difference has provided proof like that, yet it would be so easy to provide, if the differences were really as "goddamn obvious" as these people claim. And I would be happy to provide many, many more passed ABX logs (as well as failed ones) to show that ABX tests are completely valid. I've even given my aunt and three girlfriends ABX tests, and they passed most of them with flying colours.

I'll also explain why I'm so confident that no one can reliably tell hi-res apart from CD resolution:

* A higher sampling rate ONLY means it contains content above around 22 kHz. In music, the musical content at those frequencies are at an extremely low volume level. Plus, human hearing in anything but teenagers tops out at maximum 20 kHz. I'm 38, and my hearing tops out around 17,5 kHz (I've checked).
* Higher bitrate, as has been demonstrated in this thread, only means an increased dynamic range - higher than 96 dB. People can't hear musical content that soft.

 

[sander99]

but if you take a 24 bit file and convert it to 16 bit (instead of taking two different masters) and do a blind test you will see that you can't hear a difference.

One little precision that maybe you forgot: Best would be: after converting down to 16 bit, convert it up to 24 bit again, so that you compare two 24 bit files (in fact: completely identical format) so that there is no way something in the playback chain can handle the two files differently in any way. (One file: the original 24 bit file. The other file: a 24 bit file resulting from converting down, and then converting the 16 bit file up again to 24 bits.)

 

[board]

One little precision that maybe you forgot: Best would be: after converting down to 16 bit, convert it up to 24 bit again, so that you compare two 24 bit files (in fact: completely identical format) so that there is no way something in the playback chain can handle the two files differently in any way. (One file: the original 24 bit file. The other file: a 24 bit file resulting from converting down, and then converting the 16 bit file up again to 24 bits.)

Okay . That would probably be a better way of doing that, I agree .

 

[castleofargh]

Okay . That would probably be a better way of doing that, I agree .

to be fair it just depends on what you test. not going back to both samples at the same resolution also lets you find out if your system does something to the signal it probably shouldn't(that's usually more significant with sample rate in my experience). if you fail to disprove the null hypothesis your way, you can be pretty confident that you won't pass with both samples at the same resolution. so that's taken care of ^_^.

 

[board]

to be fair it just depends on what you test. not going back to both samples at the same resolution also lets you find out if your system does something to the signal it probably shouldn't(that's usually more significant with sample rate in my experience). if you fail to disprove the null hypothesis your way, you can be pretty confident that you won't pass with both samples at the same resolution. so that's taken care of ^_^.

Fo shizzle!

 

[billbishere]

i like more.

 

[robo24]

Please provide the logs of the ABX tests you've passed of files properly converted from 24 to 16 bits, made from the same master (not two different files from different sources) as well as ABX tests of files converted from FLAC to AIFF. Until you do, your claims haven't been backed up and are only talk.

I'll be a good sport and show you what I mean:
Here's one of my claims: I can tell certain phono preamps apart.
My proof:

Cambridge CP1 vs. Parasound Zphono:

foo_abx 2.0.2 report
foobar2000 v1.3.10
2016-07-03 09:39:16

File A: Fleetwood Mac Cambridge BØJET pickup - oprindelig justering.wav
SHA1: b0c9656b8820fe8ea94af52706316e627e6e2966
File B: Fleetwood Mac Parasound JUSTERET PICKUP.wav
SHA1: b79c8cdf744c1b6f6554af5d57559469f943195d

Output:
DS : Primær lyddriver
Crossfading: NO

09:39:16 : Test started.
09:43:21 : 01/01
09:43:51 : 02/02
09:44:33 : 03/03
09:45:09 : 04/04
09:45:56 : 05/05
09:46:35 : 06/06
09:47:14 : 07/07
09:47:51 : 08/08
09:48:17 : 09/09
09:49:44 : 10/10
09:50:21 : 11/11
09:50:40 : 12/12
09:51:13 : 13/13
09:51:54 : 14/14
09:52:29 : 15/15
09:52:40 : 16/16
09:52:40 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 16/16
Probability that you were guessing: 0.0%

-- signature --
96dd782fe77de0830762d5e78d9a11dda41eb60e




Parasound Zphono vs. Lejonklou Gaia:


foo_abx 2.0 report
foobar2000 v1.3.7
2015-10-06 13:17:47

File A: side 1 UDDRAG.wav
SHA1: 9ccf3ce0d2a31dbb34a2aed114702eb5288d34db
File B: Burzum - Det som DÅRLIG side 1 UDDRAG.wav
SHA1: 4d8c084287e6b3f31d1a5af67e5e9662c701142f

Output:
DS : Primær lyddriver
Crossfading: NO

13:17:47 : Test started.
13:18:34 : 01/01
13:18:51 : 02/02
13:19:07 : 03/03
13:19:35 : 04/04
13:19:45 : 05/05
13:19:57 : 06/06
13:20:09 : 07/07
13:20:16 : 08/08
13:20:26 : 09/09
13:20:37 : 10/10
13:20:55 : 11/11
13:21:05 : 12/12
13:21:14 : 13/13
13:21:37 : 14/14
13:21:50 : 15/15
13:22:29 : 16/16
13:23:09 : 17/17
13:23:50 : 18/18
13:24:03 : 19/19
13:24:14 : 20/20
13:24:14 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 20/20
Probability that you were guessing: 0.0%

-- signature --
f6ffb9de2b47498c7381a271ff9db90bf942d90a




Parasound Zphono vs. NAD PP-4:


foo_abx 2.0.2 report
foobar2000 v1.3.10
2016-10-13 18:12:03

File A: R.E.M. - Out of time - side 1 - EQ (shelf +1 dB ved 5 kHz) - 2.wav
SHA1: 23a0440def43f1c62fb030409bcfa5e9e492efb4
File B: REM - 2 EQ 1 (+1 dB ved 5 kHz) - volumen justeret til NAD + timestretch.wav
SHA1: 0fb5e4694d578ef95d2f3e2370b597586baf713e

Output:
DS : Primær lyddriver
Crossfading: YES

18:12:03 : Test started.
18:13:16 : 01/01
18:13:58 : 02/02
18:14:40 : 03/03
18:15:23 : 04/04
18:15:51 : 05/05
18:18:00 : 06/06
18:18:34 : 07/07
20:26:20 : 08/08
20:26:52 : 09/09
20:28:37 : 10/10
20:28:54 : 11/11
20:29:15 : 12/12
20:29:58 : 13/13
20:30:57 : 14/14
20:32:05 : 15/15
20:32:46 : 16/16
20:32:46 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 16/16
Probability that you were guessing: 0.0%

-- signature --
d178d3bb69b4f0c12805b545e09660821cf40fc6




NAD PP-4 vs. Cambridge CP1:

foo_abx 2.0.2 report
foobar2000 v1.3.10
2017-04-16 12:58:28

File A: Beatles Sgt. Pepper NY CAMBRIDGE JUSTERET PICKUP - Titelnummer.wav
SHA1: 05f44088f182bd182bd0fe0ca2e6369e0c1cf3b3
File B: Beatles - Sgt. Peppers - TITELNUMMER.wav
SHA1: 5832ac7467a8765572df760f156116dd558898c9

Output:
DS : Primær lyddriver
Crossfading: NO

12:58:28 : Test started.
13:00:01 : 01/01
13:03:56 : 02/02
13:04:11 : 02/03
13:04:29 : 03/04
13:04:39 : 04/05
13:04:48 : 05/06
13:05:25 : 05/07
13:05:42 : 06/08
13:05:53 : 06/09
13:06:19 : 07/10
13:07:26 : 08/11
13:07:35 : 09/12
13:08:13 : 10/13
13:09:11 : 11/14
13:09:57 : 12/15
13:10:58 : 13/16
13:10:58 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 13/16
Probability that you were guessing: 1.1%

-- signature --
0214dcadd6acef8e8b803e16b08149fc72cbf29a


As you can see, the last test I "passed" with much less confidence. It was easily the most difficult one.

Here's a completely different, but more relevant, claim:
I can't tell hi-rez (24/96) apart from standard CD resolution.
My proof from the AIX hi-res challenge in August 2018:



foo_abx 2.0 report
foobar2000 v1.3.7
2018-08-21 21:27:30

File A: Tune_1_A.wav
SHA1: a172a18acd31bde18e70254654eb3d6a62a98869
File B: Tune_1_B.wav
SHA1: 23140e6544890298339f2a1de731f972a0285283

Output:
DS : Højttalere (CA USB Audio)
Crossfading: YES

21:27:30 : Test started.
21:38:15 : 00/01
21:39:02 : 00/02
21:40:15 : 00/03
21:41:35 : 01/04
21:45:51 : 02/05
21:47:17 : 02/06
21:48:20 : 03/07
21:49:10 : 03/08
22:00:04 : 03/09
22:01:08 : 04/10
22:02:23 : 04/11
22:04:27 : 05/12
22:06:39 : 06/13
22:07:30 : 06/14
22:08:32 : 06/15
22:09:46 : 07/16
22:09:46 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 7/16
Probability that you were guessing: 77.3%

-- signature --
215bc93fd1e452bd483b437ca134ee648c1c035a




and:


foo_abx 2.0 report
foobar2000 v1.3.7
2018-08-22 20:11:00

File A: Tune_3_A.wav
SHA1: e4db0c5771607dd8cf1a2b629cb7dcbff593ef37
File B: Tune_3_B.wav
SHA1: 990af2551ff3a9fa1a6af0ed5b1773705464866d

Output:
DS : Højttalere (CA USB Audio)
Crossfading: YES

20:11:00 : Test started.
20:15:29 : 00/01
20:17:03 : 00/02
20:18:47 : 00/03
20:20:18 : 00/04
20:22:19 : 01/05
20:23:38 : 02/06
20:24:58 : 03/07
20:26:42 : 04/08
20:28:12 : 05/09
20:29:28 : 06/10
20:31:01 : 06/11
20:32:19 : 06/12
20:33:36 : 06/13
20:35:45 : 06/14
20:36:48 : 06/15
20:39:45 : 07/16
20:39:45 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 7/16
Probability that you were guessing: 77.3%

-- signature --
b38c3f450663f07a9cd2879b9ac225faf53cb198



And I'll double down on the last claim: I can't tell hi-res apart from standard CD resolution, and my claim is that so can NO ONE ELSE, as long as the test was level-matched and properly conducted (meaning, properly converted and files were time-aligned, enough trials (at least 10-12), etc.).
No one who claims to be able to hear the difference has provided proof like that, yet it would be so easy to provide, if the differences were really as "goddamn obvious" as these people claim. And I would be happy to provide many, many more passed ABX logs (as well as failed ones) to show that ABX tests are completely valid. I've even given my aunt and three girlfriends ABX tests, and they passed most of them with flying colours.

I'll also explain why I'm so confident that no one can reliably tell hi-res apart from CD resolution:

* A higher sampling rate ONLY means it contains content above around 22 kHz. In music, the musical content at those frequencies are at an extremely low volume level. Plus, human hearing in anything but teenagers tops out at maximum 20 kHz. I'm 38, and my hearing tops out around 17,5 kHz (I've checked).
* Higher bitrate, as has been demonstrated in this thread, only means an increased dynamic range - higher than 96 dB. People can't hear musical content that soft.

In general, is there some bit rate at when any and separately when most are able to distinguish lossy versions from either lossless CD or lossless 24/96 files? I feel like some older 128 kbps files I have, especially the mp3 ones just sound terrible, but I don't have other versions with which to compare them with.

 

[bigshot]

In general, is there some bit rate at when any and separately when most are able to distinguish lossy versions from either lossless CD or lossless 24/96 files? I feel like some older 128 kbps files I have, especially the mp3 ones just sound terrible, but I don't have other versions with which to compare them with.

It depends on the codec of the lossy file. In my experience Fraunhofer MP3 *almost* becomes transparent at 320, MP3 LAME is completely transparent at 320, and AAC is completely transparent at 256. But even at lower data rates it can still be transparent with some music, particularly if you use VBR.

 

[bigshot]

I can tell flac from AIFF To but hey I’m crazy I guess.

Not crazy. You just haven't done a properly controlled listening test to be able to know for sure or not.

 

[CoryGillmore]

I like FLAC files cause it makes me feel good!
I like hi-res files cause they make me feel good!
I like fancy headphone cables cause they make me feel good too!
*in my Waterboy voice*