24bit vs 16bit, the myth exploded!
Nov 20, 2017 at 8:07 AM Post #4,546 of 7,175
Sure sounds like you are on to something there!

I use a compressor for watching movies - I hate the dynamic range they put in there (vocals vs. music/effects) First you are straining to hear them talk over the crunch of chips, after the next scene the neighbors are whatsapping me (its just the bass)...

I believe many DVD and HD players(which includes Blu Ray) have a DRC(dynamic range control) or Night Mode setting that also accomplishes the same thing.

Either way, it would free up makers of music and movies to concentrate just on doing that, instead of engaging in - and stuttering to justify - a pointless loudness spat to the bottom of the sonic toiletbowl. Compress to he|| in the sanctity of your own home or vehicle, while someone else listens to it in all its dynamic glory. Digital Democracy at last! :D
 
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Nov 20, 2017 at 9:05 AM Post #4,547 of 7,175
I use a compressor for watching movies - I hate the dynamic range they put in there (vocals vs. music/effects) First you are straining to hear them talk over the crunch of chips, after the next scene the neighbors are whatsapping me (its just the bass)...

I watch movies with headphones (Lt/Rt downmix + wide crossfeed gives pretty nice result). My neighbors are not whatsapping me…
 
Nov 20, 2017 at 9:08 AM Post #4,548 of 7,175
[1] But you are right about the market having spoken, but it has spoken for higher quality already: Apple has basically found that mangling is unpopular and proven the manglers on here that they are wrong, music sounds better un-mangled and there is a market for it. For the ostrich mimics - the manglers here's an explanation of Mastered For iTiunes:

For those who are able to read (which apparently excludes cutestudio): Mastered for iTunes does not affect the amount of compression/mangling, nor has Apple "found that mangling is unpopular". What cutestudio states here is utter nonsense which he's just completely made up! Here's what Apple actually states, in it's official specifications for Mastered for iTunes:

"Your decision about the volume and loudness of your tracks is a technical and creative choice. You might decide to take the listener on a dynamic journey through an album as a complete work, raising and lowering the volume level across the sequence of tracks to increase the music’s emotional impact. Alternately, you might pursue the loudest possible signal at all times. Whatever you decide—exquisitely overdriven and loud, or exquisitely nuanced and tasteful—we will be sure to encode it and reproduce it accurately."

A quick look at the dynamic range database will also confirm many MFiT albums with ridiculously low DR scores. Here's one example of a MFiT album with a DR of 04 and one of it's track's is just DR 02!

[1] Actually we can compare what we like.
[2] The mangling of music also coincides with the loss of interest in HiFi by the general public.
[2a] What if we want to buy it but without clipping and over-compression? Isn't our money any good?

1. You know, you might be right. I just compared Scarlatti's Lute Sonatas with Motorhead's "Ace of Spades" and I think I can hear what you're talking about! :) I want "Ace of Spades" with it's heavy compression and distortion, call me crazy but I absolutely DO NOT want Ace of Spades to sound like a nice gentle Lute Sonata! The ridiculous thing about your lack of comprehension is that it was us engineers who first started complaining about the loudness war, long before consumers even knew what it was and now you're blaming and insulting the very people who've been fighting against it the longest, what is wrong with you?
2. Duh, what have we been telling you and you've been arguing against? Who's going to make more expensive content which the public have lost interest in and don't want to buy?
2a. You know very well your money is not "any good" because there's nowhere near enough of it to make it worth anyone's time!

I'm going to do it, and I suggest you, and others fighting the good fight, also take heed.

Good luck banning all modern pop music genres. Do you remember the nazi dinosaurs who banned Elvis? ... No, neither does anyone else! They were too dumb to realize that acting like nazi dinosaurs actually promoted Elvis. You want to fight the loudness war, then great, join the club but enough with the ignorant nazi dinosaur crap, you're not helping, you're hindering and you're making yourself look like another complete fool in the process!

G
 
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Nov 20, 2017 at 10:29 AM Post #4,549 of 7,175
Rrod is onto something, only I've been suggesting it for the last five years: Put a barebones, basic compression codec in mobile audio gear(car, boat hi-fi, and as an app available across phone and player platforms. Better yet, a loudness codec as Apple has already done with SoundCheck for iTunes.

Right next to the 'bass, treble, balance' controls in the menus. Everything would play back at a predetermined RMS or loudness algorithm, and there would be no justification for artists & labels to demand the 'squashing' or limiting of anything any more!

I'm sure some marketing dept. can come up with a shnazzy icon that indicates "if you want to actually hear your music in the train station, press this". I posted in another thread that a focus just on normalizing loudness doesn't really get to the issue of your listening environment supporting only a certain dynamic range.

The issue of course is that it's hard to decide on a default way to do compression writ large. I'm sure a smart enough person could come up with a generally useful loudness-based compression scheme, though. Still, there's bound to be material where a generalized algorithm doesn't quite do it right, which leads to a whole set of issues for artists, engineers, and listeners.
 
Nov 20, 2017 at 10:56 AM Post #4,550 of 7,175
I don't think I could boycott any of music industry. I've bought a ton of CDs off bandcamp, some pop, some latin and some upstart post-rock bands.
I'm still buying them now. I decided instead of spending money on audio equipment, I could've have bought 20 CDs for the price of a $200 piece of gear, etc.

As long as it sounds good, I definitely will get it.
 
Nov 20, 2017 at 10:58 AM Post #4,551 of 7,175
I'm sure some marketing dept. can come up with a shnazzy icon that indicates "if you want to actually hear your music in the train station, press this". I posted in another thread that a focus just on normalizing loudness doesn't really get to the issue of your listening environment supporting only a certain dynamic range.

The issue of course is that it's hard to decide on a default way to do compression writ large. I'm sure a smart enough person could come up with a generally useful loudness-based compression scheme, though. Still, there's bound to be material where a generalized algorithm doesn't quite do it right, which leads to a whole set of issues for artists, engineers, and listeners.

Perhaps a series of values, IE: 'Low, Medium, Max' compress, or a dial-in range, so the average user could just set it to what sounds best, to them, in their local listening environment.

It has to be transparent, though: When they crank up the compressor feature, no volume adjustment should be required. Makeup gain is applied as compress feature is dialed up, and is reduced when the feature is turned off. Seemless.

I know this can be done, in cars and on mobile devices, given the technology and processing power of the last few years.
 
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Nov 20, 2017 at 11:19 AM Post #4,552 of 7,175
Cutestudio: See how both gregorio and bigshot condemn the truth as "nonsense"? Sounds just like what's coming out of the White House recently! There's only way to handle the likes of gregorio and bigshot: It begins with the letter 'I' and contains six letters. I'm going to do it, and I suggest you, and others fighting the good fight, also take heed.

GREAT ADVICE!
 
Nov 20, 2017 at 11:54 AM Post #4,553 of 7,175
But if you want evidence, consider the state of the market for audiophile releases. Most specialist labels do not sell large quantities to justify expanding their production. Indeed many go broke or just don’t see it as worth continuing, such as DCC or MFSL.

There was an album on MFSL vinyl that impressed me back in the LP era- Waiting For Columbus by Little Feat. Best live concert recording I've ever heard. I decided many years later to buy the CD, so I spent a lot of money and bought the MFSL again because I wanted to get the same mastering. It sounded fantastic. It was such a good album that it spurred me to buy a box set of Little Feat so I could hear what their studio albums sounded like. It turned out that the box included tracks from Waiting For Columbus. When they came on I was surprised to find that they sounded just as good as the MFSL, so I switched back and forth and compared. If there was any difference at all between the regular release and the MFSL version, I sure couldn't hear it. I suspect that sometimes labels will appropriate third party audiophile masterings and release them in their own expensive box sets.

SMH! I'm only 47. Why are so many folks who are older than me making such millennial statements?? Guess I'm really conservative culturally: 'Put on some Who and Van Halen and put a six-pack in the fridge for when Mike and Jim and their wives come over!'

That's fine. There's some good music there, but I don't listen to much of what I listened to as a kid any more. For a while I dug down deeper into my "kid music"- looking for similar bands that I hadn't heard of or solo albums or work before they became famous- but it was a dry well. The "greatest hits" really were the greatest hits and that's all there was.

In college I had an epiphany. I was listening to the college radio station and they played Cab Calloway's "Some of these Days" and it blew my mind. The second it came on, I jumped up and cranked the volume. This song had ten times the musicianship and ten times the energy and ten times the fun of anything I had ever heard. I grabbed a piece of paper and a pencil and sat by the radio until the DJ came back to say who it was by. The next day I was at Rhino Records asking the guy for Cab Calloway. I bought an album and devoured it. The next week, I was back at Rhino asking for more stuff like that. He started listing off names... Don Redman, Fats Waller, Fletcher Henderson, McKinney's Cotton Pickers, etc... and I was off and running.

Harlem Jazz led me to trad jazz and be bop. I dived in and tried to understand this stuff that sounded so different to me. Pretty soon I was getting into Cuban mambo and conjunto music. Pop vocals. big band... a boss turned me on to the best of classic country music. The world kept expanding faster than I could keep up following all the breadcrumbs. Classical, opera, ethnic music like Hawaiian slack key guitar and Balinese gamelan, bluegrass. My record collection exploded to over 7,000 LPs. Then I started collecting CDs and it doubled in size again. And I realized that not everything from the past has been released on LP and CD, so I got an acoustic phonograph that plays 78s and my collection doubled again.

At this point I have more music than I can listen to in my lifetime. I listen to music that is new to me every day, and every new kind of music I dive into helps me to widen my appreciation and understanding of all the other kinds of music. It's like learning a language. If I had just stuck with 70s album rock, I would still have the musical vocabulary of a 12 year old kid. That's fine for a 12 year old, but life is short and the world of the arts is vast. I want to experience as much of it as I can before I croak.

Getting back to engineering- I'll tell you something you might not be aware of since you are zoomed in on just one kind of music... bad engineering is not pervasive. It's primarily a problem just in "kid music". Classical music has always had great sound. I have an opera recording on 78s from 1935 that sound amazing. Studio jazz has always had very natural recording and engineering. There are amazing sounding records in the genres of ethnic music, country and easy listening as well.

The problem isn't a general one of engineering and the music business, it's specific to the genre of music you've chosen to focus on. Music aimed at kids are engineered for playing on cell phones and ear buds because that is what kids listen to. You have a nice sound system and you like this kind of music, but you aren't typical. The reason audiophile recordings of dinosaur rock exists is to serve your demographic. It's a small market, but you are being served. But the vast majority of the customers for pop/rock aren't like you.

In other genres, like classical, it's assumed that the listener is going to have a good sound system. The vast majority of classical recordings are remarkably well recorded. There is a pretty small market for audiophile recordings of classical music, but it's much smaller than in pop/rock because most classical recordings since the 60s could be considered audiophile.

You're extrapolating a problem in your particular niche to the entire music industry but it isn't really a valid complaint. It only applies to the type of music you've chosen to listen to. If I was you, I'd just focus on the audiophile labels that release pop/rock. Trying to get the industry to cater to your particular needs when you aren't representative of the overall audience for that music isn't going to get you far. That would be like raging at the ocean.
 
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Nov 20, 2017 at 12:22 PM Post #4,554 of 7,175
The 'no one's forcing you to buy it' argument. What's up with that? What if we want to buy it but without clipping and over-compression? Isn't our money any good?
That's a meaningless argument. What if you want to buy a car with 5 wheels and two engines? They don't make it? "Isn't my money any good?"
Yes, lets take Adele.
In the top quote you incorrectly claim that we can't compare stuff (despite the litany of shoddy remangles that are now infamous for mangling and shunned by the HiFi community), so lets compare Adele to Adele. This is easy as she conveniently numbers her albums, take a look at the overall mangling of Adele's 19, Adele's 21 and Adele's 25. You can clearly see that the mangling on 19 is of it's time and that 21 is mangled worse. Then look at 25, its mangled even worse than 21.
Do you listen with your eyes? You should stop looking at start listening.
The mangling of music also coincides with the loss of interest in HiFi by the general public.
No, sadly, it does't. The "HiFi" market...high(er) end two-channel stereos...has always been a niche. It's been diminished by the popularity of home A/V systems, often multi-channel. Just look at the number of multi-channel AVRs vs stereo devices in the market, even if you don't want to bother with actual statistics.
Once HiFi was something to aspire to and everyone I knew wanted a decent HiFi. It was big business and in every shopping center and mall.
Now no one cares because of one very simple fact: modern music sounds just as bad on HiFi as it does in the car, radio and MP3 player.
You talk as if everyone aspired to high-end audio! That's NEVER been true. The popularity of audio systems was always low-middle quality. Those awful "rack systems" of plastic chassis components all hooked together in a big black stack driving big black boom/tinkle speakers. That's where the bulk of audio was, and it satisfied the bulk of the market just fine. And those buyers/owners didn't aspire any higher than that. The same buying demographic is still in existence and still strong. They buy HTIB systems for $800, and if they want to impress their friends they buy Bose Lifestyle systems. Ever heard one of those? Your ears would fold over and seal themselves shut! And they spend $3K on them, not because of sound quality!
That's why the music industry has become a circus of 'The voice', BGT etc, because the mangling has removed all of the dynamic interest from the music. Without dynamics and with generic instruments and autotune what you are left with is a product of a) a whining teen, b) soppy PC lyrics, c) a youtube video.
I don't know, I still listen to music recorded recently, and I find a few genres that are smashed to death, but certainly not all. High quality Jazz recordings seem alive and well, classical is untouched by mangling hands, and there are others. You talk as if every recording made in the last 20 years were run through a hard clipper. Just not true.
So why would any millennial want a HiFi today? - there's no use for it.
Millennials seem to like vintage gear and vintage vinyl. That would expose them to less audio mangled in mastering, and more mangled by vinyl and the vintage pornographs with knitting needle stylii in misadjusted tone arms. (Hows that? Trying to imitate your style there...)
So yes, Adele: Good example of the rot setting in, a good boast of 'not a single peak left unclipped'.
I don't think I'd have to search very long for a recording made in 2017 that was not excessively clipped...just not in that genre.
 
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Nov 20, 2017 at 12:29 PM Post #4,555 of 7,175
Maybe we need a standard of "no clipping = high quality" as a start. It won't fix anything, but it sure is a start.
The standard for redbook was, at one time, no clipped samples. However, the standard defined clipping as digital peaks over 0dBFS. You can achieve that and set your clipping threashold at -.5dBFS, and clip like crazy...if you want.

But as much as I hate loudness processing, I'd also fight against that sort of standard. Clipping can be done without audibility, and it is a good and valid means of processing. Like any tool, it can be subjectively abused. You can't standardize subjectivity or artistic tools.
 
Nov 20, 2017 at 12:31 PM Post #4,556 of 7,175
I'm sure some marketing dept. can come up with a shnazzy icon that indicates "if you want to actually hear your music in the train station, press this". I posted in another thread that a focus just on normalizing loudness doesn't really get to the issue of your listening environment supporting only a certain dynamic range.

The issue of course is that it's hard to decide on a default way to do compression writ large. I'm sure a smart enough person could come up with a generally useful loudness-based compression scheme, though. Still, there's bound to be material where a generalized algorithm doesn't quite do it right, which leads to a whole set of issues for artists, engineers, and listeners.

Hm, you got my wheels turning. Maybe they could make the process semi-automated by adding a microphone to the system (on the wire to the headphones or on the player itself) that could measure ambient noise, and constantly adjust the amount of compression to meet both the minimum value and range value of ambient noise in the environment. It could be customized with a light, medium, and strong setting but the algorithms would do most of the work using mic data. In fact, I wonder how easily this could be designed into the pre-existing hardware of smartphones, which many people use as music players nowadays.
 
Nov 20, 2017 at 12:51 PM Post #4,557 of 7,175
I don't think I could boycott any of music industry. I've bought a ton of CDs off bandcamp, some pop, some latin and some upstart post-rock bands.
I'm still buying them now. I decided instead of spending money on audio equipment, I could've have bought 20 CDs for the price of a $200 piece of gear, etc.

As long as it sounds good, I definitely will get it.

Voting with your wallet does not mean total boycott of music, it just means choosing to buy well mastered music only. If it's rock or jazz, buy used albums not new remasters. If a new album comes out, listen to it on a music streaming service to see if its well made before you buy it. These changes in habits are not a boycott, they are merely decisions which reflect developed taste, and if enough people follow this trend the sales impact would be enormous.
 
Nov 20, 2017 at 1:05 PM Post #4,558 of 7,175
Mastered for iTunes does not affect the amount of compression/mangling

Your continued ranting about a subject of which you are clearly ignorant is puzzling. Other people will research it, read the forums and reviews and decide for themselves.
My message for audiophiles is simply this: don't listen to the disinformation and FUD, read and speak to people who have actually downloaded, checked and listened to the Mastered For iTunes music. You will not be disappointed. At least no one so far has been :wink:
E.g: http://www.forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/the-official-mastered-for-itunes-thread.350068/

ignorant nazi dinosaur crap
G

Ah - Godwins Law strikes again LOL :D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
 
Nov 20, 2017 at 1:18 PM Post #4,559 of 7,175
Clipping can be done without audibility, and it is a good and valid means of processing. Like any tool, it can be subjectively abused. You can't standardize subjectivity or artistic tools.

The issue with clipping the medium (rather than clipped content like fuzz boxes) is twofold:
1. Each DAC's overload character will be different, some get very upset with audible clicks while others hide them better. I.e. the result is now out of your control.
2. Each flat top tends to add 3rd/5th/7th/9th etc. odd harmonics which are the most audible distortion products.

Additionally the most basic limiter and compressor should be able to round off the tops, clipping can never be either necessary or desirable.

Today I walked past a street musician with a microphone and a guitar, the sound balance was actually pretty good and dynamics were well under control. I smiled as I recalled the 'art' and 'skill' which mastering engineers claim is required, the guy I heard must have been a genius :).
Maybe he's like the people on here who buy a compressor for film soundtracks, getting a good sound without clipping is hardly rocket science particularly when operating on a fixed track rather than a live stream.
 
Nov 20, 2017 at 1:21 PM Post #4,560 of 7,175
If a new album comes out, listen to it on a music streaming service to see if its well made before you buy it. These changes in habits are not a boycott, they are merely decisions which reflect developed taste, and if enough people follow this trend the sales impact would be enormous.

Absolutely! Instead of stamping their little feet, insulting the very people trying to stop the loudness war and screaming "no more compression" like lunatics, when they don't even seem to know what compression is or how it's used, they should simply vote with their wallets and buy the well mixed and mastered stuff. We've been telling artists and labels not to apply silly levels of compression for years, they nod wisely, totally agree and come back a day or two later and say "sounds great, good job but it needs to be louder". There's only two ways to get them to actually heed the advice, standardise and enforce loudness normalisation, as they have in the TV broadcast world, or hit them in the only place they'll feel it, in the wallet!

G
 

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