24bit vs 16bit, the myth exploded!
May 31, 2017 at 7:57 AM Post #3,946 of 7,175
Common practice mean most, not all. In this case very few play fair.

Do you like, if somebody will sell you something that solve your issues for reasonable price? I'd like.

Some publications in social networks, instantly generate comments: "where can I buy it?"
In this case I consider advertizing as useful information. I supose future marketing (including advertizing) should move in that direction.

Probably, more correctly targeted advertising will reduce annoying of people.
 
May 31, 2017 at 7:58 AM Post #3,947 of 7,175
[1] It is not comparison of high resolution and 16/44 exactly.
[2] Other the DAC or SACD-player implementation may give other results.

1. Yes it is, they took the SACD layer and compared that layer to the same version truncated through a 16/44.1 DAC. No difference could be detected.
2. They ran tests with other equipment. Still no difference could be detected!

Are you kidding?

That's the obvious conclusion, although I phrased the question differently, asking if he was trolling.

G
 
May 31, 2017 at 8:04 AM Post #3,948 of 7,175
2. They ran tests with other equipment. Still no difference could be detected!

In tests number is matter. How many equipment (vendors/models) was tested?
Also need to know: what is skill of listeners for each test?
As rule, in conclusion statistics of group by skill is shown.

That's the obvious conclusion, although I phrased the question differently, asking if he was trolling.

It's not trolling. It's marketing! :)
 
May 31, 2017 at 8:33 AM Post #3,949 of 7,175
[1] How many equipment (vendors/models) was tested?
[2] Also need to know: what is skill of listeners for each test?

1. They used various setups of high-end audiophile equipment. They did not test all vendors/models, burnt-in vs not burnt-in or any other ridiculous/impossible suggestions! What they did do, was make the test relatively easy to pass, they just truncated to 16bit rather than noise-shaped dithering it. No difference could be detected! There is a response by Meyer & Moran somewhere, which goes into far more detail of all the equipment used. I'm sure it's fairly easy to find with Google.

2. All sorts of people; some pro engineers, some audiophiles, mostly ordinary students, if I remember correctly. None of them could detect a difference!

G
 
May 31, 2017 at 8:56 AM Post #3,950 of 7,175
In tests number is matter. How many equipment (vendors/models) was tested?
Also need to know: what is skill of listeners for each test?
As rule, in conclusion statistics of group by skill is shown.

It's not trolling. It's marketing! :)
So then, that's revealing.
 
May 31, 2017 at 9:06 AM Post #3,951 of 7,175
They used various setups of high-end audiophile equipment. They did not test all vendors/models, burnt-in vs not burnt-in or any other ridiculous/impossible suggestions! What they did do, was make the test relatively easy to pass, they just truncated to 16bit rather than noise-shaped dithering it.

"Various" is not suitable term for proofs. There models should be shown obligatorily.

No difference could be detected!

Sorry for my English. But "No difference could be detected!" and "No difference be detected!" are different things, isn't it?

All sorts of people; some pro engineers, some audiophiles, mostly ordinary students, if I remember correctly. None of them could detect a difference!

However, need official protocol of test.

There is a response by Meyer & Moran somewhere, which goes into far more detail of all the equipment used. I'm sure it's fairly easy to find with Google.

Ok. We wait for you show us sources, that open for everybody (not only for AES members).


Also in the test was compared similar audio stuff at one loudness level. I think, for more exact test need check similar musical stuff at different levels: as adjusted in analog form as in digital form.

Anyway thank you for information, that you give already.
 
May 31, 2017 at 12:36 PM Post #3,952 of 7,175
Personally, I have threshold of quality for listening.


That's a shame because you'll never know about the greatness of Enrico Caruso or Arturo Toscanini.
 
May 31, 2017 at 1:36 PM Post #3,954 of 7,175
I use my phone to play through my speaker system. It sounds just as good as my Oppo blu-ray player or media server. We're very lucky to live in an era where almost all digital players are as perfect as you can hope for. Speakers are better than earbuds by a large margin though.
 
Jun 1, 2017 at 12:16 AM Post #3,955 of 7,175
"Various" is not suitable term for proofs. There models should be shown obligatorily.



Sorry for my English. But "No difference could be detected!" and "No difference be detected!" are different things, isn't it?



However, need official protocol of test.



Ok. We wait for you show us sources, that open for everybody (not only for AES members).


Also in the test was compared similar audio stuff at one loudness level. I think, for more exact test need check similar musical stuff at different levels: as adjusted in analog form as in digital form.

Anyway thank you for information, that you give already.
The methodology, along with various post test Q&As are available.

With regards to the audiophile test subjects, what was interesting is that they were allowed to do the ABX tests in their own homes, on their own stereos and in their own time - thus negating the [misplaced] criticisms of ABX testing you hear from subjectivists. None were able to pick the high res source from 16/44 at a rate greater than a fair flipping of a coin.

Bear in mind this was just one of the many tests on this subject, like as in the links below:
http://archimago.blogspot.com.au/2014/06/24-bit-vs-16-bit-audio-test-part-i.html
http://archimago.blogspot.com.au/2014/06/24-bit-vs-16-bit-audio-test-part-ii.html
 
Jun 1, 2017 at 1:55 AM Post #3,956 of 7,175
The methodology, along with various post test Q&As are available.

With regards to the audiophile test subjects, what was interesting is that they were allowed to do the ABX tests in their own homes, on their own stereos and in their own time - thus negating the [misplaced] criticisms of ABX testing you hear from subjectivists. None were able to pick the high res source from 16/44 at a rate greater than a fair flipping of a coin.

Bear in mind this was just one of the many tests on this subject, like as in the links below:
http://archimago.blogspot.com.au/2014/06/24-bit-vs-16-bit-audio-test-part-i.html
http://archimago.blogspot.com.au/2014/06/24-bit-vs-16-bit-audio-test-part-ii.html

Thank you for links.

1) I respect Archimago. He do many good and very interesting researches.
This experiment carefully done in its conditions, that carefully described. Conclusions are done properly.

2) I don't claim that 24 bit better 16 bit.

3) I think, that comparison of 16 and 24 bit is technically impossible.

4) I consider proper double blind test as correct estimation of subjective audio quality (that is last criteria, want you it or don't) via objective (repeatable result in certain conditions) method.


However, need consider some things.

By link compared playback of 2 formats of files: 24 and 16 bit.

1. There was checked many devices. But DAC use different circuits or different parts of circuits. So this way compared implementations, not formats as itself.

2. ABX test is not home experiment.
There need big number of measurements (several thousands though for proper calculations) and group of certified observers, that carefully control experiment performing.
Results should be fixed in the protocol, that each of observers sign.
Also need exact schemes for each experiment.

3. I don't know what to do foobar ABX plugin, when prepare files for comparison (you can see progress before it run).

4. There was not checked depending of quality for 16 and 24 bit on level for each of tested files.

Example:
If you test dithering and signal have high loudness, very probably dither give nothing.
If you reduce loudness into file 40 ... 80 dB and increase amplifier loudness, there, probably, difference appear (depend on dither implementation and experiment conditions).


5. Need control SPL (sound pressure level) in the listener ear point.

6. Different spectral distribution in test files can cause diffrent resuts. This issue need to learn.

7. All measurement tools should have proper precision, be certified and checked by certified organization.



Resume:
There are many subtle details for exact experiment.

16 or 24 or 32 bit is not our aim.

It is only our tools for implementations of subjective improvemnents, that should be proved via objective methods.

If 24 bit don't improve something in certain case, don't use it in the case.

Experiment conditions are first thing that need to know
 
Jun 1, 2017 at 1:58 AM Post #3,957 of 7,175
If you want to measure subjective improvements, a bottle of wine is the best piece of audio equipment you can buy.
 
Jun 1, 2017 at 5:24 AM Post #3,959 of 7,175
If you are ABX comparing with foobar or an equivalent app, using the same audio chain , then the volume is going to be equal. This would be the typical use case.
It is not hard to convert a 24 bit file to a proper 16 bit file. If you cheat, then you are fooling yourself. If you are conducting the test for yourself, then you have no interest in fooling yourself. Obviously, this case is not for publishing to a scientific journal but instead to satisfy personal curiosity or use in discussions.
 
Jun 1, 2017 at 5:45 AM Post #3,960 of 7,175
If you are ABX comparing with foobar or an equivalent app, using the same audio chain , then the volume is going to be equal. This would be the typical use case.
It is not hard to convert a 24 bit file to a proper 16 bit file.

Do you know exact border here between "proper" and "unproper" and have exact proofs?


If you cheat, then you are fooling yourself. If you are conducting the test for yourself, then you have no interest in fooling yourself. Obviously, this case is not for publishing to a scientific journal but instead to satisfy personal curiosity or use in discussions.

Why need discussion about non-exact experiments at a forums?

To get some hidden details, that need to know for more deep knowledges.

It is infinite process: when we get the hidden details, we discovery new hidden details.

Why you partisipate in the discussion?
 

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