24bit vs 16bit, the myth exploded!
Dec 10, 2016 at 11:27 AM Post #3,466 of 7,175
  Just to be clear, the idea in that link is that there is a difference between time and hearing out of band as stated. I couldn't less if an amp or DAC was filter rolled at 20k. In fact there can be advantages in being able to so with good phase character. Again, not claiming anything or that this is the mechanism why it's preferred, just looking for a reason. Not arguing here, just clarifying.


When you stated, "I do prefer the general tempo when I think things are right but..." what did you mean by tempo? Do you think that a DAC will change the tempo of music? Please clarify, thanks.
 
Dec 10, 2016 at 12:49 PM Post #3,467 of 7,175
  Does anyone know a music recording that actually has more than 96dB of effective dynamic range ?

 
On a released album? Probably not. There was one track in the BAS experiment where a listener could hear the effect of the 16-bit loop at high volume, but their listening room was 19dBA. I have that disc: the RMS is about -34dBFS, and there are literally a handful of samples above -6dBFS.
 
Dec 10, 2016 at 1:40 PM Post #3,468 of 7,175
 
When you stated, "I do prefer the general tempo when I think things are right but..." what did you mean by tempo? Do you think that a DAC will change the tempo of music? Please clarify, thanks.

Didn't mean tempo in the technical sense. I doubt you guys like PRAT either. Happy holidays.
 
Dec 10, 2016 at 2:24 PM Post #3,469 of 7,175
  Does anyone know a music recording that actually has more than 96dB of effective dynamic range ?

 
On a commercial music recording the most I have seen is about 60dB. I've heard reports that there is at least one with just over 70dB. If you think about it, no one would release a commercial recording with more, you'd just annoy virtually all your customers. Many/most would be annoyed with a 60dB range, let alone one with say 30 times more!
 
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Dec 10, 2016 at 2:47 PM Post #3,470 of 7,175
  Didn't mean tempo in the technical sense. I doubt you guys like PRAT either. Happy holidays.

 
PRAT, cute Linn-marketing term aside, is basically a measure of transient response and system Q (ringing / overhang).
 
The analog portion of a DAC could have some influence on this if it has a crappy power supply or crappy capacitors.
 
Dec 10, 2016 at 4:44 PM Post #3,471 of 7,175
  Didn't mean tempo in the technical sense. I doubt you guys like PRAT either. Happy holidays.

I don't think that the misuse of language by audiophiles is a good way to hide behind myth. PRAT is another good one, especially when someone says that it makes music faster. Merry XMAS to all.
 
Dec 10, 2016 at 5:11 PM Post #3,472 of 7,175
biggrin.gif
 Man, you guys are aggressive. 
 
Dec 10, 2016 at 10:06 PM Post #3,474 of 7,175
sadly we've been over all this a number of times(230+ pages of it just for this topic).
when the recording used mics that didn't roll off too much in the ultrasounds, when the instruments had loud ultrasonic content, when nothing in the studio emitted loud ultrasounds, when no DSP whatsoever downconverted or low passed the signal, when the sound engineers decided to keep high energy ultrasounds as is even though they probably know it might F up some devices, when our playback device is ok with that, when we bought the expensive highres version and it was the same master, when our headphone can actually handle the transient response and the distortions aren't just as loud or louder in the ultrasounds as the actual music, when our ears can notice all that stuff wile listening to actual music, when the moon is aligned with mars, then the sound is somehow objectively "richer" in content compared to redbook and maybe for a small minority of people it makes a small audible difference.
"takes a deep breath in french"
 
that how far I'm ready to go to keep an open mind about this. a possibility under ideal conditions for some people. if it was more than that, I assume we would have seen loads of sponsored studies demonstrating it by now. because it's been an eternal concern for audiophiles and because the industry has wet dreams about having clear proof of the audible superiority of highres and all the money they would make if they could advertised it without having to constantly play hide and seek with the law about the terms they use.
 
now mess with some parts of my requirement list and you can jump into no audible change at all, or into some changes that are actually making the highres file worst than the redbook one. so for all I know, several of the people saying there is a night and day difference are telling the truth about what they hear, but may be wrong about which is the best signal getting to their ears. how many people went to control that? if I count only with my fingers I expect it will be enough for headfi.
the other element is to find out if just upsampling the redbook version to avoid the 44khz filter of the DAC may or may not create an audible difference. if it does, then there is a need to check correctly that it's not all the difference heard with highres music. to make sure that we're paying for content and not for just a sampling number.
 
making claims about what we heard requires not only to demonstrate that we really heard things and not just "saw" them, but also the need to confirm the actual origin of the change before assuming that it's the highres content that made it all better. failure to provide all that is to me failure to demonstrate the hypothesis "music with it's original ultrasound content sounds better". and I'll then take the usual skeptical stand on the matter. not proved 100% impossibru, but certainly not proved to be true. and at this point I care about 2 things, how I feel for my music, and how blind tests in general answer to that question. personally I really don't care if something is highres or not and fail to identify anything in abx using the same format, suggesting that the ultrasonic content doesn't means shiit to me. I've had better luck upsampling redbook on some devices, so to me the low pass filter of the DAC is way more important than the ultrasonic content of the file. in general, most trials show guessing stats or super super close to it, even for the sponsored researches with an agenda to show ultrasounds are important.
until I see enough evidence of the contrary, I'll stick to that and let marketing talk to my hand.
 
 
 
 
 
off topic:
I do have a lot of biases against PRAT. I know that's really not "objective" of me, but I usually move on to something else anytime I see a review using that term. and I think to myself "the brain jury will disregard previous readings".
 
Dec 11, 2016 at 6:35 AM Post #3,476 of 7,175
  and why I didn't use it to begin with but without some measurement based term and not subjective, you guys wont accept it. That part is fine as it's your ball and game here but try being adults.
 
I treat posting as if I were sitting across from others. I don't know if some of you lack social skills or are simply compensating. I gave you prat and even said why I wouldn't use it to see what you'd do. You did not disappoint.

The feeling might be mutual as we face the ranting of forum flash mobs going on about unprovable fairy tales with the gusto of a lynch mob. Yes at times they use R rated language or hateful phrases. You might try minding your own social skills, as to many of us you are visiting the last bastion of audio reality.
 
Dec 11, 2016 at 6:48 AM Post #3,477 of 7,175
I recanted some of that as I'm letting it go. It's only personal when directed at someone and made persona. Someone else's reality shouldn't threaten your own. I just don't think we are aware of all that goes on under dynamic conditions as opposed to tests. You and others do and that's great but the attacks are a bit much.
 
Dec 11, 2016 at 7:20 AM Post #3,478 of 7,175
The feeling might be mutual as we face the ranting of forum flash mobs going on about unprovable fairy tales with the gusto of a lynch mob. Yes at times they use R rated language or hateful phrases. You might try minding your own social skills, as to many of us you are visiting the last bastion of audio reality.

that's really not a good reason. aren't objectivists supposed, and I really mean supposed, to be the better men with the more rational brains?
 
TOS clearly says no personal attacks, it's really hard to argue without any sense of personal argument, but please try to make some efforts. you guys know all too well how it ends.
attack the claims not the people!
 
Dec 11, 2016 at 7:49 AM Post #3,479 of 7,175
 
[1] Someone else's reality shouldn't threaten your own.
 
[2] I treat posting as if I were sitting across from others. I don't know if some of you lack social skills or are simply compensating.
 
[3] without some measurement based term and not subjective, you guys wont accept it. [3a] That part is fine as it's your ball and game here but try being adults.

 
1. You seem to have missed the whole point of why science exists! Science SPECIFICALLY attempts to avoid any individual's notion/s of reality and get to the actual facts.
 
2. Well there's your problem! "Social skills" are defined by the society and as science exists to avoid superstition and get to the actual facts, pushing your own unsubstantiated idea of reality is effectively an attempted perversion of science and is therefore about as rude as it gets, as far as the scientific community/society is concerned!
 
3. Subjective opinions are perfectly acceptable on this forum, provided they are NOT used as the sole basis for some stated fact. If this were not the case, it wouldn't be science and this couldn't honesty be called the sound science forum!
3a. If by our "ball game" you mean science, then yes, it's our ball game and if you wish to participate YOU should try to be an adult, as an adult is expected to have at least a basic understanding of what science is, and therefore at least some idea of how to state facts without actually insulting science!!
 
G
 
Dec 11, 2016 at 8:23 AM Post #3,480 of 7,175
 Science is observation, attempting to explain it by setting up a hypothesis and then trying to prove it with repeatable results. Even this can be flawed by interpretation of those results but that doesn't mean it's not science. That someone has done earlier portions of this without completing the process doesn't mean they are wrong or railing against science. It's often happened in science that an observation and hypothesis has been brought to the community and been laughed off as silly and later proven correct. Even Hubble doubted red shift though he was the one that collected the data. Einstein never accepted an expanding universe. Knowing the mechanism of a function is also not required or even gravity does not exist. As those that railed against past discovery, it's not that difficult to be blinded by science. I fully acknowledge that this does not give every crackpot idea credence but like most things observed by humans regardless of how critical and careful, we're not perfect; in our testing, our observations or our interpretations of same. I understand the need for blinders to strive for that perfection but it does narrow one's view.
 
I began with my personal observation and gave an example of another's hypothesis. The idea was to discuss and look for other possible hypothesis. I wasn't trying to prove anything or attack anyone. The rest has been a waste of all our time. This can be discussed without resentment or derision or simply ignored unless you feel mockery is scientific. I suspect others, possibly very smart people, may have an idea or 2 but are hesitant to join in because of the type of responses I received so would rather not be bothered. We all suffer. If this were only about knowns, this forum need not exist and those pertinent facts could just be posted with simply question/answer pages applied. I guess science is not about asking questions or changing facts because, you know, that never happens in science.
 
I promise I'll leave, never to return, once this has passed.
 

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