[MacacoDoSom]

  It is much the same as attitude "all Japanese airplanes are biplanes and all Japanese pilots wear glasses" at the outbreak of WWII. It held true - up to the first encounter with Zeros.
 
You would be surprised how quietly the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra can play - it is their trademark, of which they are immensely proud - quite justifiably so. And that IS below reasonable intellegibility of CD redbook. No CD you ever could have possibly heard can do this kind of mastery of playing really quietly justice. CD produces at these really low levels AND high frequencies from multiple instruments (approx 90 members, all playing ) a decisively homogenized porridge out of real thing - this is NOT as easy as playing -100 dB level 1 kHz sine wave tone - which can be properly played back with CD redbook using appropriate dithering.
 
Sorry, but being conservative, even if it is overkill, usually does produce better results. Having "just" the capability, under the best possible of conditions vs having sufficient overkill for even the worst case scenario - which one would you choose, provided your own scalp is at stake ?

...have you tried a CD mat?

 

[analogsurviver]

  Simply place the Ultima HD Mat on top of an optical disc, with the gold side against the disc in a transport drawer or top loading mechanism. A micro-thin metallic coating dissipates static build-up, while a proprietary composite material made of an embedded carbon nano-tube structure dramatically reduces the level of disc vibration. Subtle resonances which were previously impossible to effectively control will now be completely eliminated, 16-bit/44.1K recordings will resemble 24-bit/192K recordings - instrumental timbres, harmonic density, and minimal ambient information will demand your attention in ways you never thought possible. ($239)
 
uauuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu......... this must be what every one is looking for...

 nice try ... - but if it were all true of your imaginary Ultima HD Mat, for a mere measly $239, it would still be a bargain, while used with a shopping mall DVD transport beating that $5000 and up CD player used without it - wouldn't it ?
 
Seriously, the real world mat I linked costs < 50 EUR and CAN pull the above trick (providing a decent DAC is used with that shopping mall DVD transport ). 
 
Errata corrige: I really thought you were pulling my leg - but googling did produce this : http://www.musicdirect.com/p-109390-marigo-audio-labs-ultima-hd-signature-cd-mat.aspx
 
And, yes, it does adress the weaknesess of "plain vanilla" carbon disc - particularly the static buildup. To anyone intending to spend similar kind of money on WHATEVER cable while still using silver discs (even if for ripping only ), listen to this Ultima HD Mat first - you may well thank you me for the suggestion. 

 

[analogsurviver]

 
...have you tried a CD mat?

I use it - make it THEM - for the last 7 or so years. ALWAYS - except in car CD player and when I do not want to show it and effect it can produce.
 
For those wearing glasses - it is akin to cleaning your glasses properly with a micro fibre cloth (with CD mat ) and going about with the glasses not cleaned for a day or two (without CD mat ). 
 
You can see/listen in both cases - question is HOW.

 

[lamode]

   
I agree that it makes sense to capture at 24 bit - it gives you the headroom to make sure you don't clip the ADC - but playing those peaks at 120+ dB SPL still puts your "average" level in the 90 to 100 dB range which is louder than most people listen on a sustained basis.

 
Yep, drums can hit 120+dB at 1 metre, but drums were never intended to be listened to from 1m.
 
At 4 metres, that 120dB peak drops to 108dB, so that's about as loud as your peaks ever need to be at the listening position. And if that's the peak, the average should be 80-90dB, which is safe enough.

 

[analogsurviver]

   
Yep, drums can hit 120+dB at 1 metre, but drums were never intended to be listened to from 1m.
 
At 4 metres, that 120dB peak drops to 108dB, so that's about as loud as your peaks ever need to be at the listening position. And if that's the peak, the average should be 80-90dB, which is safe enough.

Dream on... - during the climax of "some" Shostakovich or Prokofiev, at a recent concert, SPL app on a smartphone from the friend registered solid  113 dB peak. 
 
1st balcony of the hall in pics a few posts back, at least 20m metres from the edge of the stage, some 30 metres away from the "kitchen department" (percussion section). 
 
It did not sound particularly loud - not at all. But two young ladies, with combined age approx equalling mine, sitting a few seats from me, jolted the whole row of seats, such was their reaction to what was written in the scores.
 
No doubt "pampered" by tame/polite recordings 

.
 
P.S: There were also moments when mere breathing of audience was on par in loudness with the playing ...

 

[dazzerfong]

Quote:

  Dream on... - during the climax of "some" Shostakovich or Prokofiev, at a recent concert, SPL app on a smartphone from the friend registered solid  113 dB peak. 
 
1st balcony of the hall in pics a few posts back, at least 20m metres from the edge of the stage, some 30 metres away from the "kitchen department" (percussion section). 
 
It did not sound particularly loud - not at all. But two young ladies, with combined age approx equalling mine, sitting a few seats from me, jolted the whole row of seats, such was their reaction to what was written in the scores.
 
No doubt "pampered" by tame/polite recordings 

.
 
P.S: There were also moments when mere breathing of audience was on par in loudness with the playing ...

Does that mean, for the performers, assuming that sound drops 6dB every time you double the distance (hence, doubles every time you halve the distance), if you were 1 m away, the loudness would be ~140 dB. Coz if so, if your SPL measurement was right, I hope the orchestra has some damn good health insurance in place.

 

[Krutsch]

 

 nice try ... - but if it were all true of your imaginary Ultima HD Mat, for a mere measly $239, it would still be a bargain, while used with a shopping mall DVD transport beating that $5000 and up CD player used without it - wouldn't it ?
 

 
I am confident that my shopping-mall-grade, bottom-of-the-line Pioneer spinner reads with the same or better accuracy than any CD/BD/DVD transport made today or in the past, under normal conditions, even without the "Ultima HD Mat" (which I would expect to potentially damage my player).

 

[analogsurviver]

  Quote:
Does that mean, for the performers, assuming that sound drops 6dB every time you double the distance (hence, doubles every time you halve the distance), if you were 1 m away, the loudness would be ~140 dB. Coz if so, if your SPL measurement was right, I hope the orchestra has some damn good health insurance in place.

No, I did not check the accuracy of the calibration of the friend's SPL app. But it was the same level which is the maximum Stax Lambda Pro/STM1MK2 can cleanly reproduce - 113 dB - and with which I am of course familiar. At the very least, it was not far off the true SPL value.
 
Assumptions are the mother of all f.....s . It is true that sound drops 6dB every time the distance is doubled - in open free space. 
 
Concert halls are made so to at least try to maintain, within reason, the "same" loudness for all. Although this can not be ever achieved, all the echoes etc pretty much achieve this.
 
During one of the rehearsals of the same orchestra in the same hall, I asked if I can seat in within the orchestra - of course I am curious how members of the orchestra hear it. I can assure you that it is LESS noisy than in the audience - provided you do not seat in front of the brass section. They do use sound deflectors between brass section and poor souls seating in front of them.
 
Remember, that 113 dB SPL peak reached lasted probably no more than 2 seconds - in a 2 hour 2 part concert.  With dynamic range > 80 dB (if we disregard buzzing from dimmed lights - lots and lots of them do add up to audible "Call From The Grave" by Nikola Tesla ). Average levels were well within safe limits regarding hearing damage.

 

[analogsurviver]

   
I am confident that my shopping-mall-grade, bottom-of-the-line Pioneer spinner reads with the same or better accuracy than any CD/BD/DVD transport made today or in the past, under normal conditions, even without the "Ultima HD Mat" (which I would expect to potentially damage my player).

If that shopping-mall-grade Pioneer happens to have turntable like platter, on which you put the CD with data/pits facing up, being read by the laser from above and being supported over entire CD surface, than go to the shopping mall you bought it from and thank them by purchasing more from them. In this case, not only you do not need CD mat, you can not even use it. You already own the best possible transport - at least from the disc vibration point of view.
 
Any other transport, which clamps the disc around the hole area only (99+% of everything available ) should benefit from the use of the mat. It is true that tolerances of the spindle that fits the CD disk can be a bit tricky to acommodate the additional 0.3 or so mm thick mat atop the regular CD - it may mean VERY SLIGHT enlargement of the hole in the mat by gently sanding it with very fine grit sandpaper might be required; it may be that the CD mat will not be always 100% centered on each CD/DVD/etc disc played - but the mass and eccentricity usually achieved are negligible at 1x playing speed. That eccentricity does not affect the damping action in any appreciable way. It will not damage your player.
 
It is another story with CD-ROM drives etc. There, you MUST make sure, with draconian measures if required, that your drive does not switch, even for a moment, above 10x speed - for anything. I always check for this by NOT using CD mat - whatever action I want my PC to perform, I try a normal CD without CD mat first - PCs have super nasty tendency to always set the highest speed possible as default, particularly after switching the PC on. You have to tick ALL the boxes in the software you use for your CD-ROM drive in order to prevent spinning it faster than 10x. There ARE ways of writing a CD that absolutely do not allow you to set speed low enough - BEWARE. It is not idiot proof, but with some reasonable care it is manageable. But never attempt this in a hurry - it WILL backfire.
 
As schiit happens, I can assure you it is not that catastrophic. I did destroy a few CDs and CD-Rs this way; they were scratched beyond polishing. It does leave mark on the CD mat - which does not affect anything but cosmetics . But it never damaged the CD burner (Yamaha CRW-F1 - I have both external USB and desktop versions ). 

 

[RRod]

Sometimes I feel like Sound Science needs its own Snopes page.

 

[analogsurviver]

  Sometimes I feel like Sound Science needs its own Snopes page.

Not being from States, I had to google what Snopes is....

.
 
There is a fly in this ointment - unless you try the mat (and do not have disc transport that does not need it/precludes its use ) - you will never hear your CDs at their best.
 
It is the second best tweak in audio - after ultrasonic cleaning of vinyl records.
 
And one of the least expensive to boot.

 

[RRod]

  Not being from States, I had to google what Snopes is....

.
 
There is a fly in this ointment - unless you try the mat (and do not have disc transport that does not need it/precludes its use ) - you will never hear your CDs at their best.
 
It is the second best tweak in audio - after ultrasonic cleaning of vinyl records.
 
And one of the least expensive to boot.

 
Seeing as how I can rip my CDs twice and get null difference, I think I'll be alright.

 

[lamode]

  Dream on... - during the climax of "some" Shostakovich or Prokofiev, at a recent concert, SPL app on a smartphone from the friend registered solid  113 dB peak. 
 
1st balcony of the hall in pics a few posts back, at least 20m metres from the edge of the stage, some 30 metres away from the "kitchen department" (percussion section). 
 
It did not sound particularly loud - not at all. But two young ladies, with combined age approx equalling mine, sitting a few seats from me, jolted the whole row of seats, such was their reaction to what was written in the scores.
 
No doubt "pampered" by tame/polite recordings 

.
 
P.S: There were also moments when mere breathing of audience was on par in loudness with the playing ...

 
Yet again, you are changing the goal line to try and win an argument. You should really see someone about that.
 
I was talking about a snare drum rim shot, and suddenly you want to compare this with an orchestra, measured on an iPhone? LOL. Desperation has no shame, it seems.

 

[analogsurviver]

   
Seeing as how I can rip my CDs twice and get null difference, I think I'll be alright.

Twice getting it equally wrong does not make it right either.

 

 

[lamode]

   
I am confident that my shopping-mall-grade, bottom-of-the-line Pioneer spinner reads with the same or better accuracy than any CD/BD/DVD transport made today or in the past, under normal conditions, even without the "Ultima HD Mat" (which I would expect to potentially damage my player).

You're missing the point!!! Your CD player only retrieves 100% of the data!! Analoguesurvivor's magic disk made of pixie dust can help you to retrieve 145%!! Yes, that's right - you can get more data than what's actually stored on the disk!!! Pixies are truly amazing creatures.