[RRod]

  I'm willing to try, even though not a big Mahler fan.  Where can I get this Pentatone recording legitimately in the US? (We can't access Qobuz yet).
 
Note I've already gone through 10 tracks of the HD Tracks sampler, 2 of the Linn sampler, and I have the full RAM album in 24 bit but only really tried one track so far.  I haven't had any success with louder passages so far, it tends to be on more moderate relative volme or single instrument sections.  Depsite the fact that initially I thought I could hear differences on some loud sections.

 
You'll have issues testing Pentatone as they use SACD, so the ABXing is already more complicated since you can't use a typical foobar-like paradigm.

 

[Greenears]

   
He's first operating under the hypothesis that there is a difference, and trying to hear what a positive test would sound like. There are in fact audible differences between 16 and 24-bits IF you jack up the volume to insane enough levels to hear near the noise floors, but no one listens to music this loudly. Hence the impossibility in finding an actual music track where one can detect a difference using a properly setup ABX test.

 
To be imminently clear: I am testing the hypothesis that there is an audible difference between 24 and 16 bit, as a first step.  To test a hypothesis, you assume it is true and construct a test to prove that. But you need to be very careful in the test design that if you do get a positive result it can't be attacked on the grounds that the difference you heard was due to another uncontrolled factor.  So the simplest way to control for many issues (mastering, volume differences, downsampling filters) is to simply chop the last 8 bits of a 24 bit file, and leave everything else (including sample rate) untouched.  I am doing that with the incantation sox -G file24.flac -16 file16.flac and then I check the metadata and file size to see that it's appropriate.

 

[Greenears]

   
You'll have issues testing Pentatone as they use SACD, so the ABXing is already more complicated since you can't use a typical foobar-like paradigm.

I don't have SACD equipment, and I gather from forums that ripping SACD is hard (impossible?).  If there is a legitimately downloadable DSD file version of this mastering and if sox can convert it to FLAC 16 bit I'm happy to have a go at it.  

 

[Greenears]

  I'm really confused.  It looks like he's sampled more than enough to prove that there's no difference.  Is he being disingenuous?  In other words, am I missing out on the obvious sarcasm?

I am not being sarcastic, I am really running the tests. I've posted a number of ABX logs above, and always respond to any requests for a repost.
 
I've learned I'm a rare animal on these forums that I came into this without a firmly set opinion.  I learned this the hard way when any results I got leaning towards hearing a difference one crowd told me the test was flawed.  The moment my results leaned towards no difference, another crowd told me my tests were flawed, try different tracks etc etc.
 
>It looks like he's sampled more than enough to prove that there's no difference. 
 
Well, herein lies the 64 bit question. I would summarize my results so far (you can scroll up to see all the logs) as getting tantalizingly close to detecting a difference on a couple of tracks, but also unquestionably completely guessing on many other tracks.  The results are just right on the fence, not weak enough for me to dismiss but not the 1% on a large sample run that I'd like to see to prove the difference.  Adding fuel to the fire are a couple other posts I found that suggested a stronger difference (with valid methodology) but I've not been able to reproduce their setup for various reasons.  I would really like to see 9/10 or 17-18/20 to feel there is a clear difference.
 
Another note, despite being repeatedly suggested on this thread, is that NO I am not cranking the volume and listening for noise.  I am listening at low to moderate volume and I've NEVER heard audible noise on any tracks 24 bit or 16 bit.  Where I've had limited success it's been on some type of qualitative timbre in the sound of an instrument.  
 
A further wrinkle in this twisting journey is that recently I've started to look into the effects of Dynamic Rang Compression (DRC) on quantization noise.  But I've not been able to find definitive technical papers on that. Papers on QN yes, DRC yes, but not the combination thereof.  I've tried to think it through myself, but I'm unsure whether DRC will magnify QN on the soft passages, or will actually mask QN because it is a much bigger source of nonlinear distortion.  So I'm left uncertain whether to go for tracks that have high or low DR, or have been put through strong DRC or none.
 
The quest continues.... 

 

[Krutsch]

  I'm willing to try, even though not a big Mahler fan.  Where can I get this Pentatone recording legitimately in the US? (We can't access Qobuz yet).
 
Note I've already gone through 10 tracks of the HD Tracks sampler, 2 of the Linn sampler, and I have the full RAM album in 24 bit but only really tried one track so far.  I haven't had any success with louder passages so far, it tends to be on more moderate relative volme or single instrument sections.  Depsite the fact that initially I thought I could hear differences on some loud sections.

I only suggested Mahler because there might be a passage that ranges from very loud to very quiet; but as you mention above, you might try a violin/piano duo piece. HDTracks has a large selection of Pentatone classics for purchase.
 
Speaking personally, I have spent the last couple of days re-sampling my high-res collection down to 48/16 or 44.1/16, using iZotope, so I can play my complete library on my Sonos boxes. What a headache... I'm sorry I ever ripped that first DVD Audio disc, which is what started me on the path for high-res.

 

[Lespectraal]

Audiophilia and religion are similar in the sense that both of them are somewhat faith based. Both seem to call upon the idea that there is "something", without the means of proving that. It is as if the idea in question is made up, totally within the realm of imagination and therefore has no place in reality.

In fact, in philosophy, there is a topic called the mind body problem that explores and questions the relation between the mind and the body. One proposed answer to this problem is immaterial consciousness. It is said that our brains are mere "receivers" and that our consciousness is incorporeal, meaning that it has absolutely no physical foundation, therefore it cannot be measured, tested or likewise verified.

Perplexing.

 

[Greenears]

 
I only suggested Mahler because there might be a passage that ranges from very loud to very quiet; but as you mention above, you might try a violin/piano duo piece. HDTracks has a large selection of Pentatone classics for purchase.
 
Speaking personally, I have spent the last couple of days re-sampling my high-res collection down to 48/16 or 44.1/16, using iZotope, so I can play my complete library on my Sonos boxes. What a headache... I'm sorry I ever ripped that first DVD Audio disc, which is what started me on the path for high-res.

My condolences.  I already learned that lesson (with help from a friend) that whatever you decide on as your "archival" format needs to be carefully chosen.  Then, plan on simultaneously converting the golden archive version to several easily played formats so that your "xDevices" all work without constant reconversion.
 
The nice thing about FLAC that I'm finding is that increasing number of devices just play it natively, even up to 192/24.  

 

[Greenears]

  Audiophilia and religion are similar in the sense that both of them are somewhat faith based. Both seem to call upon the idea that there is "something", without the means of proving that. It is as if the idea in question is made up, totally within the realm of imagination and therefore has no place in reality.

In fact, in philosophy, there is a topic called the mind body problem that explores and questions the relation between the mind and the body. One proposed answer to this problem is immaterial consciousness. It is said that our brains are mere "receivers" and that our consciousness is incorporeal, meaning that it has absolutely no physical foundation, therefore it cannot be measured, tested or likewise verified.

Perplexing.

Clever segue into esoteric philosophy
 
You may be right .... but Alan Turing proposed the Turing Test which seems to suggest a way to test if consciousness is present, sort of.  In a way, it is an ABX test of consciousness!  Yes there is hope

 

[RRod]

 
Well, herein lies the 64 bit question. I would summarize my results so far (you can scroll up to see all the logs) as getting tantalizingly close to detecting a difference on a couple of tracks, but also unquestionably completely guessing on many other tracks.  The results are just right on the fence, not weak enough for me to dismiss but not the 1% on a large sample run that I'd like to see to prove the difference.  Adding fuel to the fire are a couple other posts I found that suggested a stronger difference (with valid methodology) but I've not been able to reproduce their setup for various reasons.  I would really like to see 9/10 or 17-18/20 to feel there is a clear difference.

 
How likely would you want a false positive to be? If you want 1% (1 false positive out of every 100 tests), then you need 16/20 or 10/10. If you want 1 out of 1000 false positives, then you'd need 18/20 or 10/10. These are the numbers you should decide on: the false positive rate and how many trials you can stand to do.

 

[Krutsch]

  My condolences.  I already learned that lesson (with help from a friend) that whatever you decide on as your "archival" format needs to be carefully chosen.  Then, plan on simultaneously converting the golden archive version to several easily played formats so that your "xDevices" all work without constant reconversion.
 
The nice thing about FLAC that I'm finding is that increasing number of devices just play it natively, even up to 192/24.  

Yes. I actually have four complete copies of my library: ALAC (for use in iTunes and iDevices), FLAC (for in-home streaming), FLAC-2 (which has 44.1/48 down-sampled versions of high-res files for Sonos, Android devices and over-the-Internet streaming) and MP3/320 (Google Play).
 
Lately, I've been using MinimServer/Streamer on a second Mac Mini which will transcode from anything to WAV, on-the-fly with FFMPEG, so I could probably get rid of the FLAC collections, but as you say, outside of Apple devices, FLAC seems to be standard for lossless.
 
Obviously, I didn't *plan* on making this so complicated, but I am a gadget fiend and I keep all of these versions for testing out various devices.
 
It's actually gotten to the point where my daughter and girlfriend have expressed frustration in how complicated the 2-channel and surround systems are (i.e. "...why can't we just listen to music without a tutorial?") - I am constantly moving gear around and buying new stuff. So, I solved that problem with a Sonos - now, they can stream the house library (FLAC-2 on a WD MyCloud), their own Google Play and Spotify accounts and leave the rest of the system (and me) alone.

 

[RRod]

 
Yes. I actually have four complete copies of my library: ALAC (for use in iTunes and iDevices), FLAC (for in-home streaming), FLAC-2 (which has 44.1/48 down-sampled versions of high-res files for Sonos, Android devices and over-the-Internet streaming) and MP3/320 (Google Play).
 
Lately, I've been using MinimServer/Streamer on a second Mac Mini which will transcode from anything to WAV, on-the-fly with FFMPEG, so I could probably get rid of the FLAC collections, but as you say, outside of Apple devices, FLAC seems to be standard for lossless.
 
Obviously, I didn't *plan* on making this so complicated, but I am a gadget fiend and I keep all of these versions for testing out various devices.
 
It's actually gotten to the point where my daughter and girlfriend have expressed frustration in how complicated the 2-channel and surround systems are (i.e. "...why can't we just listen to music without a tutorial?") - I am constantly moving gear around and buying new stuff. So, I solved that problem with a Sonos - now, they can stream the house library (FLAC-2 on a WD MyCloud), their own Google Play and Spotify accounts and leave the rest of the system (and me) alone.

 
And it always seems very logical to us: "Just set the TV to this, the receiver to this, and sing this chant 3 times"

 

[bigshot]

I've got a Logitech Harmony remote that automatically sets everything with one button on my iPhone. I hate unnecessary complication.

 

[Greenears]

   
And it always seems very logical to us: "Just set the TV to this, the receiver to this, and sing this chant 3 times"

Double double toil and trouble....

 

[The Walrus]

'High-Definition' Music Explained: Can You Really Tell the Difference?

 
http://www.billboard.com/articles/business/6429580/what-is-high-definition-music-debate-sony-walkman-pono 

 ​

 

[limpidglitch]

Brave journalist, there aren't many of them out there taking that line.
And <3 Ethan Winer.