16GB Dap with the best SQ?

[Solan]

Jzzz reports that he finds iAudio 7 to have better SQ than D2:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f15/co...io-7-a-321927/

As for best SQ, this player supposedly reincarnates the Rio Karma:

Amazon.com: TrekStor vibez 12 GB MP3 Player (Black/Silver): Electronics

 

[Leroy Jenkems]

Quote:

Originally Posted by triggerc /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why not? Out of the line out the iPod Touch has the same sound quality as any other DAP. And I'm not too sure on this, but isn't the line out on the iPods unamped? So you don't amplify the sound twice unlike some other DAPs when you add an amp to the system.

First point: The iPod Touch is grossly overpriced as strictly a music player. Mediocre sound quality compared to even the other mp3 players in the iPod family.

Second point: He asked for a DAP, not a DAP and an amp. A brand new 16gb ipod touch will run you about $350. So he will most likely be spending at the very least $400 for both.

 

[Chri5peed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by triggerc /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why not? Out of the line out the iPod Touch has the same sound quality as any other DAP. And I'm not too sure on this, but isn't the line out on the iPods unamped? So you don't amplify the sound twice unlike some other DAPs when you add an amp to the system.

No its not.


A Line-out has still been digitally converted[via internal DAC] and we all know DACs differ enormously.

Only virtually untouched signal is a digital-out, i.e. via S/PDIF. Which has not touched a DAC or Amplication. My set-up.

 

[souperman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by triggerc /img/forum/go_quote.gif What quirks are we talking about? I honestly don't know what quirks you are talking about, can you be a little more specific please? I'm not trying to start an argument but I honestly don't know what you may be talking about.

If you're happy with it, then good for you. Many including myself find the Wifi too weak at times, the SQ isn't great let alone other ipods (and the OP didn't ask for just a DAC so there is no point in recommending an amp as well with the touch), the touch screen framework is great and works well, but far from perfect. I can go on and on. Again, you may be happy with it, but many aren't. There is a reason why some people never go for first generation items. Consider this my last post on our off topic discussion, I never intended this to become a debate.

 

[triggerc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leroy Jenkems /img/forum/go_quote.gif First point: The iPod Touch is grossly overpriced as strictly a music player. Mediocre sound quality compared to even the other mp3 players in the iPod family. Second point: He asked for a DAP, not a DAP and an amp. A brand new 16gb ipod touch will run you about $350. So he will most likely be spending at the very least $400 for both.

First point, the iPod Touch is the first one of its kind, where else can you find a touch screen DAP with an unscratchable screen and an amazing interface like that? Sound quality wise it has the same DAC as the 5th gen and the 5.5 gen iPods, which are some of the most highly regarded iPods for sound quality.

Second point, I don't recall there having a budget. If I've gone over budget, my apologies. More over, for casual listening the iPod Touch's headphone out is more than adequate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chri5peed /img/forum/go_quote.gif No its not. A Line-out has still been digitally converted[via internal DAC] and we all know DACs differ enormously. Only virtually untouched signal is a digital-out, i.e. via S/PDIF. Which has not touched a DAC or Amplication. My set-up.

So the line out on the iPods are amped? I know they obviously go through the DAC, but I thought they were line level signals, I didn't fully understand your response, sorry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by souperman /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you're happy with it, then good for you. Many including myself find the Wifi too weak at times, the SQ isn't great let alone other ipods (and the OP didn't ask for just a DAC so there is no point in recommending an amp as well with the touch), the touch screen framework is great and works well, but far from perfect. I can go on and on. Again, you may be happy with it, but many aren't. There is a reason why some people never go for first generation items. Consider this my last post on our off topic discussion, I never intended this to become a debate.

I am very happy with the iPod Touch, so are many others. The only problem I have with it is the slow sync. The whatever imperfection you believe exists with the touch screen interface can be easily taken care of with firmware updates, hurray for the internet. Again, you may not be happy with it, but many are. I don't believe that this has become a debate yet, but I find the sheer amount of unfounded bias against iPods by some people on this forum puzzling.

 

[Leroy Jenkems]

Quote:

Originally Posted by triggerc /img/forum/go_quote.gif First point, the iPod Touch is the first one of its kind, where else can you find a touch screen DAP with an unscratchable screen and an amazing interface like that? Sound quality wise it has the same DAC as the 5th gen and the 5.5 gen iPods, which are some of the most highly regarded iPods for sound quality. Second point, I don't recall there having a budget. If I've gone over budget, my apologies. More over, for casual listening the iPod Touch's headphone out is more than adequate. So the line out on the iPods are amped? I know they obviously go through the DAC, but I thought they were line level signals, I didn't fully understand your response, sorry. I am very happy with the iPod Touch, so are many others. The only problem I have with it is the slow sync. The whatever imperfection you believe exists with the touch screen interface can be easily taken care of with firmware updates, hurray for the internet. Again, you may not be happy with it, but many are. I don't believe that this has become a debate yet, but I find the sheer amount of unfounded bias against iPods by some people on this forum puzzling.

I have a bias against people who suggest things that are in contrast to what the threadstarter wants. He wants a 16gb DAP with the best sound quality. He did not ask for a DAP and an amp. He didn't ask for a DAP and a car, so I'm not going to recommend lotus exige also.

He asked for an mp3 player with the best sound quality. The usual recommendation would be sony or cowon players. Do you believe that an ipod touch has better SQ than an A729?

 

[triggerc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leroy Jenkems /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have a bias against people who suggest things that are in contrast to what the threadstarter wants. He wants a 16gb DAP with the best sound quality. He did not ask for a DAP and an amp. He didn't ask for a DAP and a car, so I'm not going to recommend lotus exige also. He asked for an mp3 player with the best sound quality. The usual recommendation would be sony or cowon players. Do you believe that an ipod touch has better SQ than an A729?

Out of the headphone out, no, line out, yes. Most of the "sound quality" we talk about here isn't pure quality of the sound anyway, it is all based on preference, just because the response is flat doesn't mean the sound quality isn't good. Do you believe that the HD600 and HD650 lack sound quality? This is Head-fi, if people ask for sound quality, amps are definitely going to get recommended. Since the OP didn't specify no amp, I don't see why portable amps can't be recommended.

BTW if you want to argue semantics, the OP didn't specify a budget, and the iPod Touch's sound quality out of the headphone out isn't any worse than the other iPods in the family either.

 

[Trastan]

I don't want this to be a debate, but I see no reason why the iPod touch isn't a possible recommendation. Whether folks like Leroy or souperman disagree is their choice, but they really have no reason to belittle a perfectly fine opinion. Their blatant hostility shows some immaturity and inability to accept a legitimate opinion that contrasts with their own.

OP: If you want what could arguably be one of the higher-end setups, by all means, check out the touch with a good amp. If you're looking for a cheaper alternative, the Sonys and D2 are excellent all-in-one options. I've owned a D2 for roughly six months, and I'm currently using a touch for videos and podcasts, and a Sony A818 for music (so I can use my DRM'd WMA files). All sound great in my opinion, with the edge going to the Sony only, in my opinion, due to its excellent sound enhancements and equalization.

You have your options by now from all of us; take your cost and portability requirements, and make your choice. You certainly can't go wrong with any of the above.

 

[Solan]

iPod is by all means a viable alternative. To my ears, when I tested, it sounded precisely on par with Creative's player, and only slightly below Cowon's X5. All three ranked well below a home rig, though, so I see no reason to go all audiophile on portable equipment, simply because portable equipment is not audiophile. You are better off deciding which equipment is good enough for playing the kind of music you can enjoy on non-audiophile equipment. Other features are also buying points when it comes to portables, imho.

(No, this is not an advocacy of low-level portable equipment; just a reminder that there is really no such thing as high-level portable equipment yet.)

 

[Chri5peed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by triggerc /img/forum/go_quote.gif So the line out on the iPods are amped? I know they obviously go through the DAC, but I thought they were line level signals, I didn't fully understand your response, sorry.

If its a genuine line-out it is not amped.


Musical outputs are in three types:


Headphone-out - Basic connection, what you'll find in all DAPs, the 3.5mm socket is one. Or elsewhere anywhere a headphone plugs in. Can have its volume altered. Its been converted to digital and has been amplified

Line-out - Same as ^, but it is not amplified. It is a line-level output, i.e. its volume is fixed. Only an amplifier can control volume...well foobar can alter line-out volume. It also has been converted to digital.

Digital-out - Cleanest output there is. Same as line-out, but it has not been converted to digital


I use 'Optical-out', which is a type of digital-out. Why the audio signal from my PC is a red pulsing beam of light.

 

[triggerc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chri5peed /img/forum/go_quote.gif If its a genuine line-out it is not amped. Musical outputs are in three types: Headphone-out - Basic connection, what you'll find in all DAPs, the 3.5mm socket is one. Or elsewhere anywhere a headphone plugs in. Can have its volume altered. Its been converted to digital and has been amplified Line-out - Same as ^, but it is not amplified. It is a line-level output, i.e. its volume is fixed. Only an amplifier can control volume...well foobar can alter line-out volume. It also has been converted to digital. Digital-out - Cleanest output there is. Same as line-out, but it has not been converted to digital I use 'Optical-out', which is a type of digital-out. Why the audio signal from my PC is a red pulsing beam of light.

Then the iPods have genuine line outs, because you can't alter the volume from within the ipod when you use a LOD. I use optical out from my PC and Macbook Pro as well, though it isn't very necessary if you have a good clean output like the ESI Juli@.

 

[rhyx]

Take a look at the Cowon D2. I bought the cheaper 2GB version and just dropped a 16GB SDHC card into it.

There is also a model with 8GB built in memory.

 

[Chri5peed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by triggerc /img/forum/go_quote.gif Then the iPods have genuine line outs, because you can't alter the volume from within the ipod when you use a LOD. I use optical out from my PC and Macbook Pro as well, though it isn't very necessary if you have a good clean output like the ESI Juli@.

I got the Juli@ for its Line-out long before I got a DAC. When the 'upgrade curse' hit I kept my Juli@ for its built-in Optical-out, no break-out cable.
Also because the Juli@ is purported to have an Optical-out, rivalling the Lynx II.

Its true the Juli@ is a strong/stable output, but it is and cannot rival my set-up. ATM my FLACs essentially are coming directly out of my harddrive into my DAC[using Kernel-Streaming]. Using the Juli@ it'd go into my soundcard and its DAC circuitry.



edit - I'm a trained Electrical Engineer. My enginneering mind loves gadgetry and I lap up this kind of info, don't worry its all true!

 

[acegazda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by triggerc /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why not? Out of the line out the iPod Touch has the same sound quality as any other DAP. And I'm not too sure on this, but isn't the line out on the iPods unamped? So you don't amplify the sound twice unlike some other DAPs when you add an amp to the system.

right the purpose of a line out + portable amp is to bypass the internal amp of the player, so in the end you get better sound quality.

 

[triggerc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chri5peed /img/forum/go_quote.gif I got the Juli@ for its Line-out long before I got a DAC. When the 'upgrade curse' hit I kept my Juli@ for its built-in Optical-out, no break-out cable. Also because the Juli@ is purported to have an Optical-out, rivalling the Lynx II. Its true the Juli@ is a strong/stable output, but it is and cannot rival my set-up. ATM my FLACs essentially are coming directly out of my harddrive into my DAC[using Kernel-Streaming]. Using the Juli@ it'd go into my soundcard and its DAC circuitry. edit - I'm a trained Electrical Engineer. My enginneering mind loves gadgetry and I lap up this kind of info, don't worry its all true!

I've been looking at the Juli@ as a replacement for my X-Meridian, so it does only KS, no ASIO?