[Uncle Erik]

I always wonder about all the other factors affecting the power grid. Not just the other cables running to the house, but how the grid ebbs and flows depending on the loads and capacity. How different generators go on and off line. How the weather affects transmission, how the sunspot cycle changes the amount of RF absorbed by the grid's equipment, employees constantly upgrading and changing out various equipment, and dozens of other variations. These are all real events that really happen. If systems are so sensitive that 3' of cable change the sound, then there must be a massive change in sound every time a different plant goes on line and another cycles out. Heck, plants built 25 years apart MUST sound different. How could they possibly sound the same?

What I find curious is that the power grid, demonstrably, undergoes massive change every minute. Literally. A system sensitive enough to resolve the difference between power cords should resolve the difference between power stations, as well as everything mentioned above. To argue that power is constant is madness and demonstrably wrong.

Therefore, you would expect a system to sound different, minute by minute. Maybe power cords do make a difference, but how could you ever distinguish that from every other variable? If you insist that minute differences in cable construction change the sound, you have to accept that every other variable upstream plays a part.

 

[bhostinsky]

I wouldn't expect the cord to make a difference, but the connectors sure could. A connector could provide a better connection with the socket, which could in turn provide a better sound. It's like silver solder vs regular solder on PCB's. Silver can definitely change the sound.

 

[ericj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif What I find curious is that the power grid, demonstrably, undergoes massive change every minute. Literally. A system sensitive enough to resolve the difference between power cords should resolve the difference between power stations, as well as everything mentioned above. To argue that power is constant is madness and demonstrably wrong.

This is very true. I used to work for an experimental broadband ISP that attempted several times to partner with power companies in offering a remote meter-reading solution. That never panned out but the engineer who spent the most time with the meter reading gear ended up working on the control side of a municipal power generation system.

Throughout the day, as the load varies, turbines are brought on and off line, and sometimes power is purchased from remote facilities.

Whenever they do this, the phase has to be matched as they bring it online. The really interesting part is, it's not preclsely 60hz. They are required by law to *average 60hz over the course of any 24-hour period. In any given day, they are required to be within a few cycles of 5184000 cycles for the day.

Why? AC powered clocks, that's why. They used to be required to synchronize with WWVB, but this requirement was lifted ages ago. Nowadays, the waveform - which is not a pure sine wave, and my friend assures me this is on purpose - changes throughout the day, and so long as they squeeze out the correct number of cycles, everybody is happy.

They literally have systems that count cycles and figure out, hey, we were a little slow before, we missed about 200 cycles, so lets speed things up a touch and squeeze in the ones we missed.

If you want some sort of "pure" power, you're going to have to build a system that amounts to a large power amplifier that cranks out an entirely synthetic waveform - not unlike the systems used to drive Tesla Motors electric engines.

 

[LawnGnome]

Quote:

Originally Posted by philodox /img/forum/go_quote.gif Intellectually, I understand and appreciate your argument. Practically, I have found better power cords to offer a host of improvements that were quite startling given that I did not expect there to be a positive gain. To the OP, I'm glad that you've found a cost effective way to improve your rig. Nice work.

Then why buy them and spend so much money on them?

You always use this " I didn't expect there to be a change" line, it's BS.

 

[304290]

Power cords don't have anything to do with the power coming from the power grid to your house. It only affects whats between your source and your outlet. No matter how good or bad the power from your outlet is, it can be degraded even more using lesser power cords. Lesser power cords can add noise and interference to your source. Upgraded power cords don't add anything to make the electrical current better. What they do is keep the electrical current from being as degraded as it would be with lesser power cords. A lesser degraded current from your wall to your source, is a difference that can be heard.

 

[UserNotFound]

I'm interested if the people who improve their sound with fancy power cables understand how the power supply in their device ACTUALLY works?

 

[ericj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 304290 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Power cords don't have anything to do with the power coming from the power grid to your house. It only affects whats between your source and your outlet. No matter how good or bad the power from your outlet is, it can be degraded even more using lesser power cords. Lesser power cords can add noise and interference to your source. Upgraded power cords don't add anything to make the electrical current better. What they do is keep the electrical current from being as degraded as it would be with lesser power cords. A lesser degraded current from your wall to your source, is a difference that can be heard.

As a man who is rewiring his own home, I have to say that i don't think you have any clue what you're talking about.

In the US, it's actually not legal to sell power cords that could 'degrade' the current between the wall and the device. Unlike thte UK we have these wacky laws that say that the cord shouldn't burst into flames if the power supply shorts out, so they uniformly use wire that is far greater gauge than it needs to be.

The product liability they would face if the crimps and/or welds between wire and plugs would amount to millions or even billions of dollars, so the contacts are typically quite strong.

You're completely full of crap if you think a length of standard lamp cord is going to degrade the power.

 

[LawnGnome]

Quote:

Originally Posted by UserNotFound /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm interested if the people who improve their sound with fancy power cables understand how the power supply in their device ACTUALLY works?

No, because if they did, they would realize how absurd their ideas are.

 

[304290]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericj /img/forum/go_quote.gif As a man who is rewiring his own home, I have to say that i don't think you have any clue what you're talking about. In the US, it's actually not legal to sell power cords that could 'degrade' the current between the wall and the device. Unlike thte UK we have these wacky laws that say that the cord shouldn't burst into flames if the power supply shorts out, so they uniformly use wire that is far greater gauge than it needs to be. The product liability they would face if the crimps and/or welds between wire and plugs would amount to millions or even billions of dollars, so the contacts are typically quite strong. You're completely full of crap if you think a length of standard lamp cord is going to degrade the power.

You totally misunderstood what I was saying. It didn't have anything to do with the reliabilaty of cheep cords. Or cheap cords not being safe. This is obvious. Not only cords, you can't mass market any consumer product that is dangerous or hazzardous. I'm referring to upgraded cords that uses higher grade materials such as wire, sheilding, and connectors. Also I'm was referring to the quality of the power. Not the power itself. Of course any power cord will deliver 115-120 volts, but they will also deliver noise and electromagnetic interference. Upgraded cords deliver a cleaner 115-120 volts to your source than cheaper cords. You are the one who doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[Jambo]

In the UK I think we have made the wacky realisation that big cables are not a safe way to deal with short circuited power supplies and have other methods instead!

304290, if you can hear the difference, then that's awesome. But really, I'd be surprised if you could do a blind A/B test on it. I know I couldn't. The reason I say this is that there is alllll sorts of **** between the sub station and your house, the last couple of feet really can't make a difference.

The power we're getting these days is crap, as someone mentioned earlier it is nowhere near a pure sine wave, a consequence of the huge amount of power hungry DC devices we now have like PCs and photocopiers...

 

[304290]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jambo /img/forum/go_quote.gif In the UK I think we have made the wacky realisation that big cables are not a safe way to deal with short circuited power supplies and have other methods instead! 304290, if you can hear the difference, then that's awesome. But really, I'd be surprised if you could do a blind A/B test on it. I know I couldn't. The reason I say this is that there is alllll sorts of **** between the sub station and your house, the last couple of feet really can't make a difference. The power we're getting these days is crap, as someone mentioned earlier it is nowhere near a pure sine wave, a consequence of the huge amount of power hungry DC devices we now have like PCs and photocopiers...

This I already know. I can't give a good scientific reason why it sounds better. It not that serious to me to know why it sounds better. It just does, and I'm happy. As far as A/B tests, that's exactly what I've done(with a little help from a friend) I try to do all of my listening tests that so that my results are not biased. I'm fully aware of the placebo effect.

 

[headphonejunkie]

I have compared a standard computer cable, a volex, and a jellyfish power cord and they all sounded different. If you think about it all different materials will transmit electrons differently. That is why copper is warmer sounding than silver. So, even if you have crappy power coming into your house you still can change the sound by what you use for a power cord.

 

[ericj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 304290 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Of course any power cord will deliver 115-120 volts, but they will also deliver noise and electromagnetic interference. Upgraded cords deliver a cleaner 115-120 volts to your source than cheaper cords. You are the one who doesn't know what he's talking about.

Do you have any idea what's in the walls of your home?

It's 14awg solid copper - nowhere near OFC, and three in a flat row. All through your house.

How, presicely, are you going to avoid this noise and electromagnetic interference with a damn cable?

We are in the DIY forum, not the cables forum. If you want to argue it subjectively, go to the cables forum, and i promise i won't follow you.

But we're in the DIY forum, so you're going to have to state some science here.

No matter how oxygen-free or pure or made-of-silver a cable is, it's going to deliver RF noise unless you leverage higher impedance, inductance or capacitance to attenuate it. So explain to me how a "better" cable does this without being a halfassed, expensive mockery of a simple filter circuit?

 

[philodox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif Then why buy them and spend so much money on them?

Since you seem to know my rig better than I, how much have I spent on power cords? Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif You always use this " I didn't expect there to be a change" line, it's BS.

It's not BS, it shows that I didn't go in with expectations that there would be a positive difference. That is an important fact in my mind. Quote:

Originally Posted by UserNotFound /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm interested if the people who improve their sound with fancy power cables understand how the power supply in their device ACTUALLY works?

Sure do, what would you like to know? Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif No, because if they did, they would realize how absurd their ideas are.

Man, you're so negative and condescending. What value do you think you are adding to this forum with that attitude?

 

[LawnGnome]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericj /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do you have any idea what's in the walls of your home? It's 14awg solid copper - nowhere near OFC, and three in a flat row. All through your house. How, presicely, are you going to avoid this noise and electromagnetic interference with a damn cable? We are in the DIY forum, not the cables forum. If you want to argue it subjectively, go to the cables forum, and i promise i won't follow you. But we're in the DIY forum, so you're going to have to state some science here. No matter how oxygen-free or pure or made-of-silver a cable is, it's going to deliver RF noise unless you leverage higher impedance, inductance or capacitance to attenuate it. So explain to me how a "better" cable does this without being a halfassed, expensive mockery of a simple filter circuit?

Yeah, they seem to have forgotten where they are.

Their "it just does" explanations hold no weight here.