[web123]

What is a flagship ?
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1wi8M-HSeK0JF33P-5ypydQjQ4OshRQhvWM0IX2h0NQ8/
 
See page 4, "Flagship characteristics".
If you can do a "flagship" for 50 $, go for it, you will sell millions of them.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  What is a flagship ?
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1wi8M-HSeK0JF33P-5ypydQjQ4OshRQhvWM0IX2h0NQ8/
 
See page 4, "Flagship characteristics".
If you can do a "flagship" for 50 $, go for it, you will sell millions of them.

 
I remember this! It was interesting to see some well-regarded headphones get poor grades in their tests.

 

[ubs28]

   
I remember this! It was interesting to see some well-regarded headphones get poor grades in their tests.

 
On the other hand, some headphones get A+ while they have serious problems. The HD800 has annoying sibilance for example.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  On the other hand, some headphones get A+ while they have serious problems. The HD800 has annoying sibilance for example.

 
Most long-term owners who found better components for it claimed that on their systems, the sibilance is gone (or at least greatly reduced), so the headphones are just one piece of the puzzle.

 

[Head Injury]

   
On the other hand, some headphones get A+ while they have serious problems. The HD800 has annoying sibilance for example.

It seems to be based on how well engineered the headphones are, and how well they avoid common problems like rolled off treble, resonances, distortion. If those problems don't exist, the headphone should be very receptive to equalization to match a preferred frequency response. The HD800 is colored but definitely well engineered, and I bet it's very receptive to EQ. Too bad everyone tries to fix it with more colored gear instead.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  It seems to be based on how well engineered the headphones are, and how well they avoid common problems like rolled off treble, resonances, distortion. If those problems don't exist, the headphone should be very receptive to equalization to match a preferred frequency response. The HD800 is colored but definitely well engineered, and I bet it's very receptive to EQ. Too bad everyone tries to fix it with more colored gear instead.

 
Out of curiosity, which headphones do you consider to be the least colored / most neutral?
 
(If possible, I'd like a ranking of your top 5.)

 

[whirlwind]

 
 

 

[whirlwind]

 

   
I remember this! It was interesting to see some well-regarded headphones get poor grades in their tests.

 
On the other hand, some headphones get A+ while they have serious problems. The HD800 has annoying sibilance for example.

My HD 800 does not have annoying sibilance at all...it is wonderful.....maybe you should try some different gear with it.

 

[Head Injury]

   
Out of curiosity, which headphones do you consider to be the least colored / most neutral?

Depends entirely on which compensation curve you like. The HD800's lower treble doesn't really fit any of them, so I'd call it colored regardless. Not that this is a bad thing necessarily, because EQ exists.
 
To my ears the LCD-2 comes close, otherwise I wouldn't have stuck with it the past few years. I'm liking the Harman curve that's all the rage right now, and out of the open flagships the Audeze sound comes close, just a few dB too much lower midrange out of the box. I've got an EQ to fix that, just finished tweaking it last night

 
But without EQ, I think maybe the Fostex TH-900 comes closest. Listen to how closely it matches the reference track in this review.
 
BTW, I see Tyll did some graphs of popular headphones using a Harman compensation curve. You might want to take a look if that interests you. "Neutral" according to the curve is a flat red and blue line. The curve rolls treble and boosts bass more than a lot of audiophiles might like, but I think headphones in general have too much treble.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  Depends entirely on which compensation curve you like. The HD800's lower treble doesn't really fit any of them, so I'd call it colored regardless. Not that this is a bad thing necessarily, because EQ exists.
 
To my ears the LCD-2 comes close, otherwise I wouldn't have stuck with it the past few years. I'm liking the Harman curve that's all the rage right now, and out of the open flagships the Audeze sound comes close, just a few dB too much lower midrange out of the box. I've got an EQ to fix that, just finished tweaking it last night

 
But without EQ, I think maybe the Fostex TH-900 comes closest. Listen to how closely it matches the reference track in this review.

 
Really? I always hear about how the HD 800 is one of the most neutral headphones, the Audeze models (not so much the LCD-2) are warm and lush and thus not very neutral, and the TH-900 is very colored, but in a fun way. Guess you can't always trust the majority opinion!
 
What about the SR-009? That's at the top of my wish list, though I would also like the TH-900 for portable use.
 
Just listened to the test tracks in that review. Wow, the Edition 8 sounds horrible in comparison!

 

[tamahome77]

   
Also not counting the Sennheiser Orpheus (HE 90 electrostatic headphones + HEV 90 amplifier, which retailed at $12,900 in the early '90s and is now occasionally listed on eBay for up to $40K!) and a few dozen other exotic models.

 
I know a guy who claims to enjoy music more with some of the cheapest equipment in the world, even though he owns STAX gear.

I was offered a chance to buy the orpheus combo (headphone & amp) for $7500CAD ( it was around $5700usd) 5 years ago but didn't pull the trigger.  The HE 90 sounded bright SUPER Bright making it very unenjoyable.  The imaging was fabulous but that's about it.  I would get more enjoyment listening to music out of the much cheaper HD600 than the HE90.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  I was offered a chance to buy the orpheus combo (headphone & amp) for $7500CAD ( it was around $5700usd) 5 years ago but didn't pull the trigger.  The HE 90 sounded bright SUPER Bright making it very unenjoyable.  The imaging was fabulous but that's about it.  I would get more enjoyment listening to music out of the much cheaper HD600 than the HE90.

 
I'm seeing so many unexpected impressions (that go against so much of what I've read about in the past) just on this page!
 
This is the first time I've heard of it sounding too bright. I heard there was variation among some of the headphones and amps, so it's possible that you heard one of the "inferior" ones. That's also by far the lowest price I've seen for it.

 

[Head Injury]

   
Really? I always hear about how the HD 800 is one of the most neutral headphones, the Audeze models (not so much the LCD-2) are warm and lush and thus not very neutral, and the TH-900 is very colored, but in a fun way. Guess you can't always trust the majority opinion!
 
What about the SR-009? That's at the top of my wish list, though I would also like the TH-900 for portable use.

Warm and lush is neutral, IMO. When was the last time a live show stabbed your ears with as much treble as most headphones put out?
 
The Harman curve is just one of several, other common ones headphones aim for are free field and diffuse field. Each one aims for different things. You can read up on the process here. The Harman curve isn't present because it's fairly new, and designed to try to simulate the effects of neutral speakers at a distance in a neutral room. So some major factors include having a generally downward slope from bass to treble (because bass travels through air more easily that treble) with a peak at 3 kHz to simulate the effect our outer ear has on the vocal range. So, generally, warm and lush.
 
According to Harman the SR-009 is tilted upward slightly much like the HD800, but less up and down because of its more linear response, no midbass hump and smaller treble plateau. So if I were trying to match this curve I'd probably just apply a straight line going from 0 dB at 20 Hz to -5 dB at 20 kHz. That's pretty close.
 
Ultimately "neutral" in headphones doesn't really exist yet, there's too many variables and disagreements. It's a lot easier with speakers because they aren't attached to our head. They don't just simulate what we hear, they simulate how we hear it. Headphones are still working on that how. So in the end pick what you like, fix it if you need to, don't worry too much about neutral.
 
You also have to consider what attributes you like most in sound. Soundstage, imaging and detail have as much to do with boosted treble and linearity of treble as they do position of the driver, and the HD800 has boosted but linear treble. Impact in the bass can be reproduced by a flat and linear bass like planars, but it's easier to achieve with the midbass hump of dynamics, so in some cases that coloration can make things sound better too. It's all tradeoffs and personal preference.

 

[AnalogSavior]

   
Really? I always hear about how the HD 800 is one of the most neutral headphones, the Audeze models (not so much the LCD-2) are warm and lush and thus not very neutral, and the TH-900 is very colored, but in a fun way. Guess you can't always trust the majority opinion!
 
What about the SR-009? That's at the top of my wish list, though I would also like the TH-900 for portable use.

 
This is roughly in line with my experience.  HD800 was neutral with just a bit too much treble, and Audeze is warm/dark though I did like the LCD2 and LCDX in general.  No experience with TH-900, but the SR-009 was just stupidly detailed and "right" out of a BHSE.  I really enjoyed it.  Definitely my choice if I had about 10K to put into just headphones.
 
Regarding if TOTL are worth it?  Some are some not so much.  Depends on you want out of your system.  You can probably get what you want without spending nearly as much.  Also, by the time you are looking in to an SR-009 with a BHSE you can start considering pretty nice speaker systems.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  Warm and lush is neutral, IMO. When was the last time a live show stabbed your ears with as much treble as most headphones put out?
 
The Harman curve is just one of several, other common ones headphones aim for are free field and diffuse field. Each one aims for different things. You can read up on the process here. The Harman curve isn't present because it's fairly new, and designed to try to simulate the effects of neutral speakers at a distance in a neutral room. So some major factors include having a generally downward slope from bass to treble (because bass travels through air more easily that treble) with a peak at 3 kHz to simulate the effect our outer ear has on the vocal range. So, generally, warm and lush.
 
According to Harman the SR-009 is tilted upward slightly much like the HD800, but less up and down because of its more linear response, no midbass hump and smaller treble plateau. So if I were trying to match this curve I'd probably just apply a straight line going from 0 dB at 20 Hz to -5 dB at 20 kHz. That's pretty close.
 
Ultimately "neutral" in headphones doesn't really exist yet, there's too many variables and disagreements. It's a lot easier with speakers because they aren't attached to our head. They don't just simulate what we hear, they simulate how we hear it. Headphones are still working on that how. So in the end pick what you like, fix it if you need to, don't worry too much about neutral.

 
Interesting. This is the first time I've seen warm and lush described as neutral. Most people differentiate between them definitively, even regarding them as opposites, such as saying, "Do you want a neutral, warm/dark, or cold/bright sound?" Maybe you're using different meanings here, because one meaning of warm involves excessive bass. My reason for caring about neutrality (as an ideal to pursue) is because I want to get the most accurate and realistic sound possible. I want no more warmth and lushness than is present in the actual recording. Don't headphones that are more warm/lush add more than is actually there? Most people also regard Audeze and Fostex as very colored headphones, so your perspective is confusing to me. I appreciate any explanations you can give.