[Crowbar44]

So...full disclosure...I'm 53 y/o...and dabbled in "high (mid) end" audio from 1990-1994 after college. I read Stereophile and The Absolute Sound religiously. I had B&K mono blocks, Vandersteen 2Ci's, Rotel CD transport/Player, Audio Alchemy "bitstream" DAC. This was, even in 1992, considered, a decidedly mid-fi system, though it cost me at least $5k in 1992...$5k I was stretched to produce...

It was fun in NYC in the '90's, Stereo Exchange, Sound by Singer, were two places I frequented downtown. I know the really old guys are bemoaning the death of Lyric HiFi uptown - but I never went there.

I will say that I saw a pair of Sumo mono blocks for sale, used, at Stereo Exchange, in 1992 (they were dusty even back then) ... and they were going for a song (like $200! in 1992...they seemed like a phenomenal deal) Big power, big heatsinks, they looked the part! When I asked the salesman about the Sumo's, he told me in no uncertain terms that they were the least reliable amps he had ever experienced, and that they would blow up soon after I got them home (nice sales strategy, but I appreciated it!) . They were never sold, and remained dusty and untouched till at least 1994...(sorry @JasonStoddard, I know you learned what NOT to do at Sumo...)

I had one EXRAORDINARY experience hearing a pair of Wilson WATT/puppies (and WHOW subwoofer) with Krell amplification in 1992...before I bought my first system. It was sublime...and probably still motivates me today in my quest for beautiful sound

So...nuff said. I gave up on conventional, 2 channel (speaker), audio in 1994 as I pursued professional opportunities, got married and had kids.

Fast forward to 2021 and I'm scratching that audio itch again. I'm established, and have some disposable income. I started with some Schiit products (Hel, Asgard 3MB, etc.) There is no doubt in my mind that EVERY headphone amp company in the US owes Schiit a commission for creating a market out of thin air. Add that to an Amazon HD account where I have access to virtually every song in English, with a DEEP classical catalog, and audio suddenly seems like a very cool hobby again.

Two channel "high end" "speaker based" audio, at a MINIMUM $50k cost of entry, plus the need for a dedicated room, seems utterly stupid, though I have a number of more expensive hobbies.

My Schitt experience started with LCD-2f's and an Asgard 3 MB, but quickly led to a fancy tube amp and Focal Clears...I'm probably not done...

So that gets to the meat of this post...in my opinion, the only "growing" part of "high end" audio is in the headphone space. Guys like me, (not really decrepitly old...but certainly not young) are coming back to audio, solely due to the presence of quality sound via headphones. I was shocked, when I came back to audio, to see that a typical "high end" set of headphones cost $1k, and that the best-of-the-best cost $3-4k...but if you factor in the cost of a high quality amp and DAC, you're still looking at less than $6-10k for an "end game" headphone rig. Compare that to $500,000 - $1,000,000 for an "end game" 2-channel speaker system, and headphones start to look like an absolute bargain...

So, I fully expect to see some headphone manufacturer (I'm looking at you Focal) to roll out a $10k headphone in the next 5-7 years.

Is that crazy? Insane? Or is it the future? A bargain? The BEST speakers will ALWAYS beat the best headphones...but at 100x the cost....really?

I dunno, I see a $10k headphone coming, but maybe only with a huge advance in accuracy and soundstage, maybe with innovative, propriety digital signal processing/EQ.

To close the loop, I spent $5k for a low end, "high end" speaker system in 1993, and in 2021 you could spend twice that for the absolute best headphone system. Seems like there's room to grow this market. A huge number of Head Fi-ers are willing to spend $1,000 for complete headphone systems out of college, what happens to those guys at age 53? Are they done with music? Probably not...

Is this insane? $10k TOTL headphones, and $10k TOTL headphone amps? I dunno, I think I will see it in my lifetime. Is it worth it? Hard to say...there's a lot more competition for ears in 2021 (iPhones, Netflix, etc.) but I see a $10k headphone coming...

Opens bag of popcorn and sits back....

 

[MSA1133]

Wait until you see how much TOTL IEMs (In Ear Monitors) costs now. Crazy times indeed.

 

[Crowbar44]

Wait until you see how much TOTL IEMs (In Ear Monitors) costs now. Crazy times indeed.

Never went down the IEM route...but it seems like there's a touch of froth there...though for all I know, IEMS may be really hard to manufacture...

 

[mammal]

Oh yeah, it's coming. Just a couple of years ago we had LCD 4 and Hifiman HE1000 and now we have Abyss AB-1266 and Hifiman Susvara. The same happened with CIEMs that levitated around 1.5k mark, now easy touching 3k.

The only thing that was always expensive were electronics. You had expensive DACs like Chord Dave or Lapmizator, Amps from the likes of Woo Audio, yet now you have so much more options (XIAudio, Riviera, Bakoon).

Of course you had full systems like Hifiman Shangri-la, Sennheiser HE-1, but those include amps in them too.

I do agree that more and more people are coming to headfi, new high end tiers will be created for them. Some of the users are coming from the speaker word, seeking how "cheap" headphones are, willing to spend more. I agree, I can see 10k headphones happening a couple of years down the line. Even companies like dCS are now creating products for headphone listening.

 

[artatgray]

Is this insane? $10k TOTL headphones, and $10k TOTL headphone amps?

Yes. it is insane, and at that price point mostly a status symbol.

If one learns how to read a performance analysis done with a lab-grade audio analyzer conducted by a qualified engineer, one can obtain TOTL equipment for far less money. I think you'd be rather surprised at how poorly some of the products from highly endorsed audiophile brands actually perform. Many of them are nowhere near what would be considered high fidelity by an engineer, and yet the audiophile press falls all over themselves about them.

Here's a review of a headphone that clocks in at $8K USD fully kitted out:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../abyss-ab-1266-phi-tc-review-headphone.23411/

 

[MSA1133]

The same happened with CIEMs that levitated around 1.5k mark, now easy touching 3k.

Checkout these, they're not even CIEMS!

qdc blue dragon $12,580 USD https://shop.musicteck.com/products/qdc-blue-dragon?variant=32144057532478

UM Mason FS $6,000 USD https://shop.musicteck.com/products...-sound-special-edition?variant=39389519151166

Oriolus Traillii $6,000 USD https://shop.musicteck.com/products/oriolus-traillii-jp?variant=32205053952062

 

[mammal]

Checkout these, they're not even CIEMS!

I think some of the money goes into looks and materials "The faceplate of Blue Dragon is three-dimensional hollow titanium panel plated 18k gold, two headphones perfect together with about 800 Blue diamonds." Crazy!

 

[HBen]

So...full disclosure...I'm 53 y/o...and dabbled in "high (mid) end" audio from 1990-1994 after college. I read Stereophile and The Absolute Sound religiously. I had B&K mono blocks, Vandersteen 2Ci's, Rotel CD transport/Player, Audio Alchemy "bitstream" DAC. This was, even in 1992, considered, a decidedly mid-fi system, though it cost me at least $5k in 1992...$5k I was stretched to produce...

It was fun in NYC in the '90's, Stereo Exchange, Sound by Singer, were two places I frequented downtown. I know the really old guys are bemoaning the death of Lyric HiFi uptown - but I never went there.

I will say that I saw a pair of Sumo mono blocks for sale, used, at Stereo Exchange, in 1992 (they were dusty even back then) ... and they were going for a song (like $200! in 1992...they seemed like a phenomenal deal) Big power, big heatsinks, they looked the part! When I asked the salesman about the Sumo's, he told me in no uncertain terms that they were the least reliable amps he had ever experienced, and that they would blow up soon after I got them home (nice sales strategy, but I appreciated it!) . They were never sold, and remained dusty and untouched till at least 1994...(sorry @JasonStoddard, I know you learned what NOT to do at Sumo...)

I had one EXRAORDINARY experience hearing a pair of Wilson WATT/puppies (and WHOW subwoofer) with Krell amplification in 1992...before I bought my first system. It was sublime...and probably still motivates me today in my quest for beautiful sound

So...nuff said. I gave up on conventional, 2 channel (speaker), audio in 1994 as I pursued professional opportunities, got married and had kids.

Fast forward to 2021 and I'm scratching that audio itch again. I'm established, and have some disposable income. I started with some Schiit products (Hel, Asgard 3MB, etc.) There is no doubt in my mind that EVERY headphone amp company in the US owes Schiit a commission for creating a market out of thin air. Add that to an Amazon HD account where I have access to virtually every song in English, with a DEEP classical catalog, and audio suddenly seems like a very cool hobby again.

Two channel "high end" "speaker based" audio, at a MINIMUM $50k cost of entry, plus the need for a dedicated room, seems utterly stupid, though I have a number of more expensive hobbies.

My Schitt experience started with LCD-2f's and an Asgard 3 MB, but quickly led to a fancy tube amp and Focal Clears...I'm probably not done...

So that gets to the meat of this post...in my opinion, the only "growing" part of "high end" audio is in the headphone space. Guys like me, (not really decrepitly old...but certainly not young) are coming back to audio, solely due to the presence of quality sound via headphones. I was shocked, when I came back to audio, to see that a typical "high end" set of headphones cost $1k, and that the best-of-the-best cost $3-4k...but if you factor in the cost of a high quality amp and DAC, you're still looking at less than $6-10k for an "end game" headphone rig. Compare that to $500,000 - $1,000,000 for an "end game" 2-channel speaker system, and headphones start to look like an absolute bargain...

So, I fully expect to see some headphone manufacturer (I'm looking at you Focal) to roll out a $10k headphone in the next 5-7 years.

Is that crazy? Insane? Or is it the future? A bargain? The BEST speakers will ALWAYS beat the best headphones...but at 100x the cost....really?

I dunno, I see a $10k headphone coming, but maybe only with a huge advance in accuracy and soundstage, maybe with innovative, propriety digital signal processing/EQ.

To close the loop, I spent $5k for a low end, "high end" speaker system in 1993, and in 2021 you could spend twice that for the absolute best headphone system. Seems like there's room to grow this market. A huge number of Head Fi-ers are willing to spend $1,000 for complete headphone systems out of college, what happens to those guys at age 53? Are they done with music? Probably not...

Is this insane? $10k TOTL headphones, and $10k TOTL headphone amps? I dunno, I think I will see it in my lifetime. Is it worth it? Hard to say...there's a lot more competition for ears in 2021 (iPhones, Netflix, etc.) but I see a $10k headphone coming...

Opens bag of popcorn and sits back....

I don't really see the point since you can build an expensive headphone system if you want already ... same as with speakers.
A bunch of 10k+$ headphone amps are already out there, high end streamer or other source, DAC, cables, power upgrades, shelves etc. etc. can easily sum up to 100k or more.
Just look at the susvara thread where people are driving their headphones with high end speaker amplifiers like pass labs amps and so on ... the only difference to a speaker system is that the systems drive headphones instead of speakers.

One thing to consider is that headphones are generally cheaper than speakers because there is just much less "material" on them. The most expensive part of a high end speaker is usually the cabinet (not the drivers or crossovers), and on a headphone there is just not that much material to work on. Simply said a headphone consists mostly of just two drivers, two cups, two pads, a headband, a cable or two and some packaging.
Look at a headphone in its separate parts and it gets pretty interesting ... especially if you look at the repair or replacement prices of high end headphones and start to realize how it somehow doesn't come together

So yeah there are already quite a few 3-5k headphones and some selected 10k+ headphones out there ... and there will also be people buying 10k$ headphones in the future. If those prices make any sense respective to the costs of research and production is however a totally different question.

 

[bagwell359]

Sanity depends on perspective. If you're earning min wage, its not going to be a thing - for a fine reason.

I have a somewhat similar audio journey to yours - although for longer, building, modifying, selling..

I stopped because I sold the home with sound room designed and built by me got sold in 2016. Headphones since. I really want a Susvara (open box ~$3.8k - but with coming senility and loss of hearing - should I? Probably not. My top 4 will likely remain that (see Sig).

 

[BK783]

Is it insane? Depends... if you're the one selling or the one buying. If you have this kind of money as pocket change, go wild. Otherwise, I'd do a very thorough listening test before I spend this much on any audio gear. I'm about the same age as the TS, and my hearing has declined with age. The Beyer peak isn't as much of a problem as it used to be. So will 10.000 greens make my hearing golden again? I doubt it.

 

[FullBright1]

A good set of headphones is = 2 a $10,000 USD set of Speakers.

A great set of Headphones is = 2 a $40,000 USD set of Speaker.

A TOTL set of Headphones, is worth even more.

So, if you analyze it this way, then $10,000 for a set of TOTL Headphones, as compared to Speakers, is something to consider.

I would hope that the Driver TECH inside a $10,000 set of Headphones,, is a NEW TECH, not available before, as this creates the illusion of "more value" which will help sell it and resell it.
The underside, is if the sound is not better then the AudioTechnica ATH ADX-5000, which costs $1999.00
I predict the $10,000 Gear wont sound better then the ATH ADX-5000.

I remember when i watched Andrew at "The Headphone Show" review the ADX-5000.
His brain is so trained to think "Audeze" "Hifiman", and "Abyss", that when he heard the ADX-5000 and it was better, all he could do was sort of mildly worship it, yet not tooo much, as he didn't want to offend his favorite brands.

 

[478423]

Technically $10,000+ headphones ALREADY exist, just not mass produced (Sennheiser HE1 as a prime example). I don't think you are crazy to think a few mass produced headphones will hit the 10k mark within a few years. IEMs are going much faster in the pricier range than headphones are. Personally I refuse to spend more than $2,000 on a single pair of headphones.

 

[FullBright1]

Technically $10,000+ headphones ALREADY exist, just not mass produced (Sennheiser HE1 as a prime example). I don't think you are crazy to think a few mass produced headphones will hit the 10k mark within a few years. IEMs are going much faster in the pricier range than headphones are. Personally I refuse to spend more than $2,000 on a single pair of headphones.

Then you'll be ready for the DROP Senn HD800S redux.
Those should be landing in a few months, and then there will be hundreds available as "pre-owned" "Mint" for the next 2 yrs.
I'll just buy mine then for about $650, as there will be so many used for sale, the prices will be quite low.

I remember when Senn was about to Release the HD820.
People were climbing walls right until they heard it.

I hope the Drop HD800S, is just an adjustment to the midrange.
A little boost there would be appreciated, as this would bring the soundstage closer in the middle.

 

[BK783]

Not being too informed about the Drop stuff, why do people who buy Drop HPs sell them off a few months later? Hype, lack of knowledge?

 

[mammal]

Not being too informed about the Drop stuff, why do people who buy Drop HPs sell them off a few months later? Hype, lack of knowledge?

I can comment on this since I owned two Drop headphones, one being Custom Art Ei.XX, which I sold in order to purchase (more expensive) Harmony 8.2, another one was Dan Clark's Ether CX, which reviewers online compared to his (twice as expensive) Ether C - but to my ears, it wasn't even close, I auditioned them in the past, but did not have funds at the time, so when I saw Drop having them for effectively half a price, I jumped on them. But they were so bad that I sold them after a week.