[Whitigir]

Electric Vehicles are not

Zero Emissions

This concept has been steering people into the wrong directions. In fact, at the moment, Electric vehicles are more toxic than any petroleum based vehicles

Why ?

Electricity have to be generated from “Sources”. These sources can be anything from “water, wind, geothermal, solar, fusions...etc”. So, which ever sources, the processes of generating electricity will be facing a different ways of it own byproducts, such as toxic chemical, wastes, and most important, the efficiency and the recycling processes.

Take Li-Ion as an example, you take electricity , which is generated from somewhere and released by products into the earth. Now you stored it, and then discharging it. The battery will be degraded overtime to a point that you will need to replace it. How much pollution are being generated by the steps of making and recycling Li-ion at the moments ? Together with the byproducts of generating electricity....is that Zero emissions ?

Everything has pros and cons. Going EV have it pros and cons, and it should be the choices of the consumers, not from dictatorship. Because it doesn’t matter how you spin it, petroleum or electric, they are both toxic to the earth.

If you want the earth to be less polluted, build city, provide free housings, opening jobs and free educations with services from within biking and walking distances. Now, that is the real way to save the earth. Also, reduce the man made plastic consumption, then replace it with organic containers that can dissolved and be fertilizer to the earth

 

[gimmeheadroom]

I have an e-friend who is a top guy in repairing electronics. He says the same thing about unleaded solder. He said it will fail after 10 years from cracks in the crystalline structure and that will cause whatever stuff that's really RoHS to be thrown out and bought again. Not necessarily phones and laptops that get ditched every 2-3 years but more importantly millions of server PSUs, mobos etc. and who knows what else.

Bottom line is the people in charge of policy are going for populism. What makes sense doesn't matter, it's just about what looks good. Here today, gone tomorrow.

I read an interesting article about horse farming many decades ago. The guy pointed out that horse farming is sustainable agriculture. Horses have little baby horses. What they eat goes back to the field. When you buy a tractor all of a sudden things change and you get into a money pit you can never climb out of. And history has shown he was right.

You are right, a lot of this stuff is much worse than what it was before. I got scorn in another post for saying I was happy about a fridge that's made out of steel and lasts for 50 or more years. When I was young we bought things once. All this junk is poisoning the earth under the banner of cool tech, new, modern, efficient. But it's completely false. It's hard to find water that is fit to drink, it's all full of plastics.

Get back to nature, fish, hunt, ride a horse to work. Sounds dumb but it worked for all of human history until now.

 

[Whitigir]

I have an e-friend who is a top guy in repairing electronics. He says the same thing about unleaded solder. He said it will fail after 10 years from cracks in the crystalline structure and that will cause whatever stuff that's really RoHS to be thrown out and bought again. Not necessarily phones and laptops that get ditched every 2-3 years but more importantly millions of server PSUs, mobos etc. and who knows what else.

Bottom line is the people in charge of policy are going for populism. What makes sense doesn't matter, it's just about what looks good. Here today, gone tomorrow.

I read an interesting article about horse farming many decades ago. The guy pointed out that horse farming is sustainable agriculture. Horses have little baby horses. What they eat goes back to the field. When you buy a tractor all of a sudden things change and you get into a money pit you can never climb out of. And history has shown he was right.

You are right, a lot of this stuff is much worse than what it was before. I got scorn in another post for saying I was happy about a fridge that's made out of steel and lasts for 50 or more years. When I was young we bought things once. All this junk is poisoning the earth under the banner of cool tech, new, modern, efficient. But it's completely false. It's hard to find water that is fit to drink, it's all full of plastics.

Get back to nature, fish, hunt, ride a horse to work. Sounds dumb but it worked for all of human history until now.

I totally agree, a horse or a bike, and close range society, then focusing onto morality, disciplinary, and core values of life. Whatever humanity is heading into is totally wrong and it will only get worse

Micro plastic particles and pollutant will only get worse, and human wonder why they have strange illness, and cancer.

At this moment, it is all about the people in charge, money, pocket, authorities, power. Those are all they care about. I am sick to my stomach when I hear that they are caring about the world, the earth, the greenhouse...etc... Nope! Not even in it slightest

 

[megabigeye]

While I agree that electric vehicles shouldn't be called "zero emissions" and that they're far from a panacea, the idea that they pollute more than gas-powered cars has been put to rest for several years.

"Despite producing more emissions during the production stage, electric vehicles still pollute far less than gas-powered cars over the course of their lifespan.

"In a 2015 study, the Union of Concerned Scientists found that gas-powered cars emitted almost double the emissions that contribute to global warming as electric vehicles, which can make up the difference from the manufacturing stage in six to 18 months of driving, depending on the size of the battery.

"In 2018, the organization found that electric vehicles were getting even cleaner."

How much an EV pollutes also depends on where it's being charged and how the electricity is produced. A car charged in a place that uses mostly coal-powered plants will pollute more than one charged where more renewables and cleaner energy is used.

 

[Whitigir]

There is really no cleaner energy to produce electricity...at least not at the moment

Think Fusion plants, once they have an accident or whatever, it isn’t going to be Chernobyl right away, but you can expect Fukushima to happens, and that ain’t a good thing.

Every pro, there is every cons to balance it out. This is the universe we live in, there is no such thing as all the gain and no compromises.

perhaps, everyone can live life slower, and keep the earth green and clear for longer with the usage of bicycles or horses, and that is the pros. The cons of this side is the slow living style and progression of technology advancement and life.

So, for all of that, making laws and forcing it down the people throat to steer the whole industry into EV is ridiculous

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Agreed. It's not green, it's just green theatre.

 

[megabigeye]

Like I said, it's not a panacea, but just because it's not perfect and not a cure-all doesn't meant that it's not better than doing nothing. It's not about not polluting at all, it's about reducing the amount of pollution we have to make.

Between the choices of polluting a lot and polluting a little, you'd choose to pollute a lot?

Anyway, my point in posting here wasn't to convince either of you, but to provide counterarguments for others that happen to read this thread.

 

[Whitigir]

Between the choices of polluting a lot and polluting a little, you'd choose to pollute a lot?

Exactly what I said, 9 isn’t much closer to a “Zero” than 10 right ? Then claiming of being “green” is funny

The same as “global warming” and all that stuff. The earth going through Cold and then warmth periods, a couple Celsius here and there ain’t gonna change anything.

Simply put, if it took the earth millions of years to purify and bring the air that we have now, and converted those pollutants into deposits and ores, then depleting all of them will just revert it back to the original polluted states. Remember ? Matter can’t be created, it is only converted from one form to another, same as energy.

So, to be claiming this is greener than that is theatrical. Either ways, human is accelerating the pollutants level on earth, but they can’t exceed what it had. The only way to not polluting the earth anymore is to live it naturally as what we used to do, before all the technologies, horse and walking and so on.

Otherwise, dragging it out a 10-20 years before catastrophe is still the same and lead to catastrophe, period.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

The same as “global warming” and all that stuff. The earth going through Cold and then warmth periods, a couple Celsius here and there ain’t gonna change anything.

Oh man, you should see the looks on peoples faces when I say this. Sure, maybe we're going through a hot period, maybe we're not. We had the first real winter in 4 years here. But it seems delusional that people claim they know exactly what the temps were 50 years ago, much less hundreds. We just don't have those kinds of records and the measurement devices have changed a lot during those years.

Simply put, if it took the earth millions of years to purify and bring the air that we have now, and converted those pollutants into deposits and ores, then depleting all of them will just revert it back to the original polluted states. Remember ? Matter can’t be created, it is only converted from one form to another, same as energy.

Bingo!

So, to be claiming this is greener than that is theatrical. Either ways, human is accelerating the pollutants level on earth, but they can’t exceed what it had. The only way to not polluting the earth anymore is to live it naturally as what we used to do, before all the technologies, horse and walking and so on.

Yep

Otherwise, dragging it out a 10-20 years before catastrophe is still the same and lead to catastrophe, period.

And this is exactly public policy. Because people have short memories and they make hay while the sun shines. What happens after their term in office is over doesn't scare them.

 

[SilverEars]

While I agree that electric vehicles shouldn't be called "zero emissions" and that they're far from a panacea, the idea that they pollute more than gas-powered cars has been put to rest for several years.

"Despite producing more emissions during the production stage, electric vehicles still pollute far less than gas-powered cars over the course of their lifespan.
"In a 2015 study, the Union of Concerned Scientists found that gas-powered cars emitted almost double the emissions that contribute to global warming as electric vehicles, which can make up the difference from the manufacturing stage in six to 18 months of driving, depending on the size of the battery.
"In 2018, the organization found that electric vehicles were getting even cleaner."

How much an EV pollutes also depends on where it's being charged and how the electricity is produced. A car charged in a place that uses mostly coal-powered plants will pollute more than one charged where more renewables and cleaner energy is used.

Yup, there are nuclear, wind, water, and solar as well. Most arguments like to point out coal. It should generally produce less polution than gas.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Yup, there are nuclear, wind and solar as well. Most arguments like to point out coal.

We have the most wind here of any place I have been except Kansas. I have no idea why the country is not full of windmill farms.

The coal business here is in bad shape and electricity is expensive.

 

[SilverEars]

We have the most wind here of any place I have been except Kansas. I have no idea why the country is not full of windmill farms.

The coal business here is in bad shape and electricity is expensive.

Maybe the land could be used for other benefits or not funding to build them. I saw a bunch in NL. In the SouthWest of the US, makes sense to put up crap ton of solar panels particularly in roofs because they don't use up room if put up on the roof. Government should promote it. Majority of the year is sunny and part odf it is intense sun.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Maybe the land could be used for other benefits or not funding to build them. I saw a bunch in NL.

I am pretty sure they don't pay to make the land fallow unlike other places. We have not a lot of people and a reasonable sized country with quite a lot of land. They complain about lack of beef and pork production but I see a lot of good grazing land that is just unused.

It's hard to know why a lot of things are the way they are.

 

[SilverEars]

I am pretty sure they don't pay to make the land fallow unlike other places. We have not a lot of people and a reasonable sized country with quite a lot of land. They complain about lack of beef and pork production but I see a lot of good grazing land that is just unused.

It's hard to know why a lot of things are the way they are.

Tax money going to wrong places. I wonder if too expensive to go Nuclear. US has yet to have Nuclear fallout.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Tax money going to wrong places.

That is a certainty!