[TSAVJason]

You sorta have to talk about the headphones on head-fi, because this is still very much a topic about headphones, granted it's gone completely off topic as of late thanks to Tyll Jude's response to Tyll's review, and everyone else who has followed, including me with this post.

You're not implying Jude was being anything more than offering to test Tylls sample on his gear to see if they could determine what the discrepancy is are you?

 

[TMRaven]

You're not implying Jude was being anything more than offering to test Tylls sample on his gear to see if they could determine what the discrepancy is are you?

I'm not implying anything, I'm merely saying that this topic was completely different prior to the Innerfidelity review of the Z1R, and especially after Jude's response to the Innerfidelity review of the Z1R.

 

[TSAVJason]

Seems to me there is too much emphasis on measurements and not enough emphasis on personal experience. This knee jerk stuff seems adolescent and counter intuitive if the goal here is to be an impression and idea sharing community.

 

[headr]

My god, I just read through the whole diatribe of hatred at the other community we can't name here. Talk about group think. A bunch of people seem to have gotten together, told each other they were special and possessed the truth that the sheep of the world couldn't or wouldn't grasp, they all then agreed to their joint exceptionality and have seemingly formed a cult. What I find ironic is that they vehemently and venomously spew angry accusations at head-fi, call everybody who doesn't agree with them controlled Jude zombie's without ever considering they themselves might be suffering from the very ailment they ascribe to head-fi. It is priceless and classic group think. I often go there and read so the vitriol that passes as the musings of the anointed and wise is very familiar to me. Yes head-fi is not perfect, but I'll take the sometimes over-enthusiastic posts of gear obsessed fans over the overtly jaded and negative who see the entire hobby and industry as a conspiracy any-day. I wish I knew how to bleat like a sheep so I could give them the evidence of my dulled and addled conformity.

It is a shame as the level of knowledge seems to be very high, sadly I can't say I am as convinced that the social skills or self-awareness necessarily follow suit. It is also sad to see some regular head-fiers over there slagging the community and other members so openly and with little compassion or respect. The reward seems to be they are told by the truth-holders that they to are part of the all seeing and wise order, and this knowledge anoints them as capable missionaries who must walk among we ignorant head-fi savages, trying to let daylight into our dark and backward minds. Even if we are deluded fools, we are a nice community and I will take nice and less knowledgeable over brilliant but angry and quick to temper minds. There are some in society who take pride in saying, well I don't pull punches, I tell it like it is, and people who can't handle the truth of my way are weak and need to grow up. Well I was raised to realize that simply having an opinion or point of view didn't mean that you weren't obligated to still present it in a socially conscious, respectful way.

And yes, I see the irony in my post as clearly I'm being less kind than perhaps I could, or maybe should. I will probably feel bad after posting this, but it is difficult to be constantly subjected to that pulsating animosity and just continually turn the other cheek so this time I have decided not to. And rest assured, the bashing of head-fi and the membership there is not a passing thing, it seems to be a treasured past-time with all of the requisite backslapping and hear hear good man that goes along with it.

I think you should be applauded for telling it like it is, even if it isn't necessary "politically correct". I hope this post doesn't get lost in the shuffle because I think you touch on several short comings in modern audio communities driven by the internet.

I have been following audio communities online since their inception, and I'm not sure what it is about the appreciation of high fidelity audio reproduction, but it seems to be strongly correlated with developing communities that turn into cult of the personality style situations.

You can see the pattern repeat itself with almost any community outside head fi. There are one or two "authoritative voices" that almost everybody follows, and are generally treated in such communities as the "benevolent dictator". The response to having these voices threatened or challenged in any way is very similar to the response of those who have been brain washed in a cult. Reason, logic, and rational empathetic understanding have no place. Ironic considering the superficial "scientific" nature of some of these communities, where one would otherwise think logic and reason would abound.

I am not saying head fi is perfect. But among places to actually discuss audio products online, it stands out a a place which has a disparate number of opinions, such that people can respectfully disagree with each other. Again, head fi isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but there is no "cult of the personality" effect here. People can, do, and frequently are rather vocal about their disagreement with people like Jude all the time.

I think it comes down to people generally not being comfortable with the subjective nature of evaluating audio products. These people are crying out for a "leader", for an authoritative voice to tell them what is true and what is false. They don't have the will power or the resolve to make these decisions for themselves, so they buy in to one of the community leaders which can appeal both to their rational side and give them the warm fuzzes about being "right" and having the "real truth".

The reality is, buying headphones requires one to be comfortable with making decisions for themselves based on their own experience. It isn't like wanting the fastest car and choosing the one with the fastest 0-60 time, which is how consumers are generally trained to buy products, especially electronics. They want a spec sheet. They want a stack ranked list. They want the best. But buying headphones is more like choosing to vacation in Hawaii or New York City. Both vacation destinations appeal to different people who experience things differently.

There may come a time when the research and understanding of audio physiology is at a point where it will be possible to choose a headphone given some objective specifications. But we aren't anywhere near that point yet. And the best thing we all can do is recognize that, understand we all prefer different things, and be respectful to each other.

Can't be said enough, but this is all about the music. Just listened to the Z1R's with Mighty Mo Rodgers' "The Boy Who Stole The Blues". From all my foot tapping I am at my exercise goal for the day. I suppose I am part of some grand audio conspiracy according to some people. Thankfully, that doesn't detract from the music on my end.

 

[nordkapp]

I'll say this about the Z1R-I could easily live with this closed back as my one and only HP, had I not already owned my others. They are on my "wall of fame". I lived with the HD580 for 10 years as my reference. See where I'm going w/this.....

 

[applebook]

Well, I was wondering why there were so many ZR1 units up for sale lately, and now I know why.

I can envision the smooth 10KHz units going for $15K soon...

 

[Sonic Defender]

Well, I was wondering why there were so many ZR1 units up for sale lately, and now I know why.

I can envision the smooth 10KHz units going for $15K soon...

I'm sure this Tyll thing is a partial factor, but this is very common for a new popular signature. Many people try it, some will decide it isn't for them. Some even buy knowing they will sell at a loss simply to try the headphone so I'm not sure the number of available Z1R's is particularly high. I remember tons of Elear's becoming available not long after the huge uptake in initial sales.

 

[TSAVJason]

I think you should be applauded for telling it like it is, even if it isn't necessary "politically correct". I hope this post doesn't get lost in the shuffle because I think you touch on several short comings in modern audio communities driven by the internet.

I have been following audio communities online since their inception, and I'm not sure what it is about the appreciation of high fidelity audio reproduction, but it seems to be strongly correlated with developing communities that turn into cult of the personality style situations.

You can see the pattern repeat itself with almost any community outside head fi. There are one or two "authoritative voices" that almost everybody follows, and are generally treated in such communities as the "benevolent dictator". The response to having these voices threatened or challenged in any way is very similar to the response of those who have been brain washed in a cult. Reason, logic, and rational empathetic understanding have no place. Ironic considering the superficial "scientific" nature of some of these communities, where one would otherwise think logic and reason would abound.

I am not saying head fi is perfect. But among places to actually discuss audio products online, it stands out a a place which has a disparate number of opinions, such that people can respectfully disagree with each other. Again, head fi isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but there is no "cult of the personality" effect here. People can, do, and frequently are rather vocal about their disagreement with people like Jude all the time.

I think it comes down to people generally not being comfortable with the subjective nature of evaluating audio products. These people are crying out for a "leader", for an authoritative voice to tell them what is true and what is false. They don't have the will power or the resolve to make these decisions for themselves, so they buy in to one of the community leaders which can appeal both to their rational side and give them the warm fuzzes about being "right" and having the "real truth".

The reality is, buying headphones requires one to be comfortable with making decisions for themselves based on their own experience. It isn't like wanting the fastest car and choosing the one with the fastest 0-60 time, which is how consumers are generally trained to buy products, especially electronics. They want a spec sheet. They want a stack ranked list. They want the best. But buying headphones is more like choosing to vacation in Hawaii or New York City. Both vacation destinations appeal to different people who experience things differently.

There may come a time when the research and understanding of audio physiology is at a point where it will be possible to choose a headphone given some objective specifications. But we aren't anywhere near that point yet. And the best thing we all can do is recognize that, understand we all prefer different things, and be respectful to each other.

Can't be said enough, but this is all about the music. Just listened to the Z1R's with Mighty Mo Rodgers' "The Boy Who Stole The Blues". From all my foot tapping I am at my exercise goal for the day. I suppose I am part of some grand audio conspiracy according to some people. Thankfully, that doesn't detract from the music on my end.

.

Good choice of music

 

[up late]

Where's my flyswatter...

i think the unicorn took it

 

[up late]

I was knocked over when I saw Tyll's report. Nothing in it corosponded with my personal experience. Here is my experience with serial no. 0257:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-16-sony-audioquest-headphones

I use the Z1Rs more than any headphone I have - just because I like it. It is sweet, comfortable, and (I think) enjoyably balanced. I use fancy-pants LP and a Manhattan II or Yggdrasal DAC.

In my experience, once a 'measurements person' sees the measurements he or she will never again be able to listen to the measured object objectively. They will hear what they think the measurements say they should hear.

And then there is Steve Guttenberg's C-Net story . . . .

peace and summer cheer,
herb

I enjoy your reviews herb but I disagree with the bolded part of your post, which looks a lot like subjectivist dogma to me

 

[up late]

I think you should be applauded for telling it like it is, even if it isn't necessary "politically correct". I hope this post doesn't get lost in the shuffle because I think you touch on several short comings in modern audio communities driven by the internet.

I have been following audio communities online since their inception, and I'm not sure what it is about the appreciation of high fidelity audio reproduction, but it seems to be strongly correlated with developing communities that turn into cult of the personality style situations.

You can see the pattern repeat itself with almost any community outside head fi. There are one or two "authoritative voices" that almost everybody follows, and are generally treated in such communities as the "benevolent dictator". The response to having these voices threatened or challenged in any way is very similar to the response of those who have been brain washed in a cult. Reason, logic, and rational empathetic understanding have no place. Ironic considering the superficial "scientific" nature of some of these communities, where one would otherwise think logic and reason would abound.

I am not saying head fi is perfect. But among places to actually discuss audio products online, it stands out a a place which has a disparate number of opinions, such that people can respectfully disagree with each other. Again, head fi isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but there is no "cult of the personality" effect here. People can, do, and frequently are rather vocal about their disagreement with people like Jude all the time.

I think it comes down to people generally not being comfortable with the subjective nature of evaluating audio products. These people are crying out for a "leader", for an authoritative voice to tell them what is true and what is false. They don't have the will power or the resolve to make these decisions for themselves, so they buy in to one of the community leaders which can appeal both to their rational side and give them the warm fuzzes about being "right" and having the "real truth".

The reality is, buying headphones requires one to be comfortable with making decisions for themselves based on their own experience. It isn't like wanting the fastest car and choosing the one with the fastest 0-60 time, which is how consumers are generally trained to buy products, especially electronics. They want a spec sheet. They want a stack ranked list. They want the best. But buying headphones is more like choosing to vacation in Hawaii or New York City. Both vacation destinations appeal to different people who experience things differently.

There may come a time when the research and understanding of audio physiology is at a point where it will be possible to choose a headphone given some objective specifications. But we aren't anywhere near that point yet. And the best thing we all can do is recognize that, understand we all prefer different things, and be respectful to each other.

Can't be said enough, but this is all about the music. Just listened to the Z1R's with Mighty Mo Rodgers' "The Boy Who Stole The Blues". From all my foot tapping I am at my exercise goal for the day. I suppose I am part of some grand audio conspiracy according to some people. Thankfully, that doesn't detract from the music on my end.

that's quite a generalisation you've made there.

and this forum is filled with posts from people wanting "the best" headphone and with claims that it is. car analogies also often appear when folks are debating over their preferred cans.

 

[TSAVJason]

that's quite a generalisation you've made there.

and this forum is filled with posts from people wanting "the best" headphone and with claims that it is. car analogies also often appear when folks are debating over their preferred cans.

MEN, often use cars to provide comparisons. I've even heard a few women use cars for comparison. I see nothing wrong with it. Of course I guess it could be a problem for those that know little about or have little appreciation for cars.

In fact there are often direct comparisons like a dynamic driver and a piston.

 

[kman1211]

MEN, often use cars to provide comparisons. I've even heard a few women use cars for comparison. I see nothing wrong with it. Of course I guess it could be a problem for those that know little about or have little appreciation for cars.

In fact there are often direct comparisons like a dynamic driver and a piston.

Agreed. The car comparison isn't as bad as one may think. It's better than comparing headphones to computers as headphones don't have the constant, reliable, and predictable betterment of hardware performances like computers do. Car enthusiast of have appreciation for certain flavors and characteristics to the cars not just their performance and different people have their own tastes. Anyone who has watched the BBC Top Gear even some should understand why the car analog is actually fairly fitting. I could also personally do some alcohol and even food comparisons if I wanted to, I'm very fond of high-end beers personally, particularly Trappist/Abbey Ales. But honestly cars are another very common interest among many people in general so it's very understandable why it's used to much.

 

[Andrew Rieger]

I've heard the Atticus and it was definitely a letdown. Everything from the build quality, comfort and sound screamed DIY to me. So thus the lack of interest.

Atticus and Eikon sound pretty different. I would definitely give the Eikon a try, it might be much closer to your preferences. May I ask what amp you used on the Atticus? The Atticus doesn't pair particularly well with certain medium to low power SS amps. Powerful SS and tubes take it to another level though. Couldn't disagree more about built quality ... sorry. I think the build is superb. Its heavy but it distributes its weight very well on the head. The Z1R might be a little more comfortable but its not night and day. I've demoed the Z1R and the Eikon side by side and to my ears, the Eikon is the superior headphone. It is more neutral, slightly more resolving and overall, more enjoyable to listen to, at less then half the price. But that's just one man's opinion. I stand by my belief that the Z1R's price is not earned.

 

[up late]

MEN, often use cars to provide comparisons. I've even heard a few women use cars for comparison. I see nothing wrong with it. Of course I guess it could be a problem for those that know little about or have little appreciation for cars.

In fact there are often direct comparisons like a dynamic driver and a piston.

car analogies are quite popular here - that was my point