[lantian]

So after reading on here for a long time and having had much audio gear in my possession over the years. I feel that most people think only about loudness of the music when talking about amp.
I feel there is a huge difference between just loud and properly amp'd. I find that without proper amp headphones will sound smaller, still as loud that they can easily hurt the ears, but they sound wrong. The dynamics are smaller the sound stage is wrong.
Why is that no one discusses it and whenever discussion goes to amp or whether or not should I amp,the answer is they are loud already, are they loud enough,without touching the most important parts?

 

[bigshot]

My Oppo PM-1s sound identical amped or unamped. Depending on impedance, either headphones need to be amped or they don't.

Soundstage differences are a red flag for placebo effect. That is your brain doing that, not the headphones or amp.

 

[castleofargh]

So after reading on here for a long time and having had much audio gear in my possession over the years. I feel that most people think only about loudness of the music when talking about amp.
I feel there is a huge difference between just loud and properly amp'd. I find that without proper amp headphones will sound smaller, still as loud that they can easily hurt the ears, but they sound wrong. The dynamics are smaller the sound stage is wrong.
Why is that no one discusses it and whenever discussion goes to amp or whether or not should I amp,the answer is they are loud already, are they loud enough,without touching the most important parts?

because a voltage amplifier was made to increase voltage gain. ^_^ so before anything else, we're interested in knowing if it does that right. but loudness doesn't define all of what sound is, so nobody is thinking that if power is enough then the amplifier is perfect. it's one relevant variable so we try to find out if it will work for us. and as it requires a tiny bit of math to make that estimation, it ends up being one of the recurrent questions on forums.

now the stuff you mention are about your subjective impressions of the sound, for that of course you will have to listen yourself. you don't know that I will perceive things the way you do, and we most likely weren't in the studio when the album was made, so discussing those stuff about proper soundstage can rapidly become and exercise in futility as we lack proper references to say anything beyond how we specifically feel about it. mistaking how I feel for how the amplifier behaves is the one mistake we're trying to avoid in this sub section.

 

[lantian]

My Oppo PM-1s sound identical amped or unamped. Depending on impedance, either headphones need to be amped or they don't.

Soundstage differences are a red flag for placebo effect. That is your brain doing that, not the headphones or amp.

But I perceive a huge difference in my case, as an example my axon 7 had a bug where it would go into low gain or switch the amp completely off, when the first one happened I perceived a huge difference in sound stage yet general loudness remained the same, when it switched it off or something similar everything but the vocals where not being amped(in which case: volume only affected the mid channel and both sides where not affected in any way). Once I tried fiio a3 in local shop had the same effect, like the biggest difference would be in strawberry fields forever, the layering and height/width are way different. But all this means is that the particular headphones need to be amped, bugs in the source not withstanding?

 

[lantian]

because a voltage amplifier was made to increase voltage gain. ^_^ so before anything else, we're interested in knowing if it does that right. but loudness doesn't define all of what sound is, so nobody is thinking that if power is enough then the amplifier is perfect. it's one relevant variable so we try to find out if it will work for us. and as it requires a tiny bit of math to make that estimation, it ends up being one of the recurrent questions on forums.

now the stuff you mention are about your subjective impressions of the sound, for that of course you will have to listen yourself. you don't know that I will perceive things the way you do, and we most likely weren't in the studio when the album was made, so discussing those stuff about proper soundstage can rapidly become and exercise in futility as we lack proper references to say anything beyond how we specifically feel about it. mistaking how I feel for how the amplifier behaves is the one mistake we're trying to avoid in this sub section.

So amp should have no effect on soundstage?

 

[castleofargh]

remastering isn't the amp's job, so ideally an amplifier should stop at changing the gain. at least that's my opinion.

 

[lantian]

Ok, had the same ideas initially, but experience with these hiem's made me reconsider. Thanks

 

[bigshot]

Headphones generally don't have soundstage in the true sense of the word. All of the perception of depth in music is due to secondary depth cues baked into the mix- reverb and echo primarily. Amping won't change the way music is recorded. Most of the time you see people discussing headphone soundstage, it's placebo effect.

 

[icebear]

Headphones generally don't have soundstage in the true sense of the word. All of the perception of depth in music is due to secondary depth cues baked into the mix- reverb and echo primarily. Amping won't change the way music is recorded. Most of the time you see people discussing headphone soundstage, it's placebo effect.

If what I hear in my set up with the HD800 and GSX-Mk2 is called placebo, then I like placebo.
Everybody should have some.

 

[icebear]

So after reading on here for a long time and having had much audio gear in my possession over the years. I feel that most people think only about loudness of the music when talking about amp.
I feel there is a huge difference between just loud and properly amp'd. I find that without proper amp headphones will sound smaller, still as loud that they can easily hurt the ears, but they sound wrong. The dynamics are smaller the sound stage is wrong.
Why is that no one discusses it and whenever discussion goes to amp or whether or not should I amp,the answer is they are loud already, are they loud enough,without touching the most important parts?

Just my unscientific $0.02 from personal experience:
If you have a really good amp you will actually listen at a lower loudness level (if "you" are not stupid or deaf already). You will be able to hear all details of the music already at a lower SPL and don't have to crank up the volume knob to eleven . My best guess is that there is obviously more to control the accurate movement of a speaker membrane than absolute max voltage capacity. If the amp is actually controlling the membrane rather than just kicking it's behind, then the signal gets reproduced as clean as possible which gives you details galore that are not buried in some acoustic mud aka "veil".
For me sound stage as accurate representation of the room acoustics of live recording is directly linked to the level of detail reproduction the set up can deliver.

 

[Don Hills]

Just my unscientific $0.02 from personal experience:
... If the amp is actually controlling the membrane rather than just kicking it's behind, then the signal gets reproduced as clean as possible which gives you details galore that are not buried in some acoustic mud aka "veil". ...

That's a non-technical way of saying that the output impedance of the amp needs to be "matched" to the impedance of the headphones. Not "matched" as in equal, but matched in capability. The output impedance of the amp needs to be much lower than the impedance of the headphones, to damp the resonances of the diaphragms. If you're driving low impedance balanced armature IEMs, look for an amp with 1 ohm or less of output impedance. If you're using 300 ohm headphones, an amp with up to 10 or 20 ohms of output impedance will do. You also need to consider the voltage swing available from the amp, high impedance headphones often require higher voltages to reach a useful level. The ideal headphone amp would have low noise, low output impedance and high output voltage capability. In the real world, different amps have different strengths and weaknesses.

 

[bigshot]

^ that totally.

It's amazing how simple understanding what an amp does and doesn't do is yet people still try to make it more than it is. FOCUS ON WHAT COUNTS! Don't waste time on stuff that just lines the pockets of equipment dealers.

If what I hear in my set up with the HD800 and GSX-Mk2 is called placebo, then I like placebo.
Everybody should have some.

Placebo is powerful and makes a difference. If you are susceptible to it, by all means use it. But you don't have to. There are other ways of getting great sound.

To determine if the HD800s need amping or not, all you have to do is look at the spec sheet. I'm not going to do that for you. But there are comparable headphones that don't require amping. If you plan to use them with mobile devices, they are a better choice than ones that require amping.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

So amp should have no effect on soundstage?

It does, to its detriment. Therefore it's not that a better amp "improves" the imaging, but a crappier amp or any device that happens to have a headphone jack has higher crosstalk, distortion, noise, etc, at the loudness you listen to. So basically, the more high fidelity and amp is, it just won't mess up the imaging. But then there's the problem of headphones and the way music is recorded for playback. Music is recorded for playback on speakers, where both ears hear both speakers in a room. On a headphone system, each ear only hears one driver.

And that's where subjectivity comes in to put all this in a confusing blender as people just praise "wide" soundstage even if the cymbals are way off to the flanks, which you may notice doesn't happen in real life until somebody gets exposed to cosmic energy and is able to stretch his arms out to the edge of the stage (personally, I'd rather see somebody like Def Leppard's drummer grow his arm back).

 

[lantian]

That's a non-technical way of saying that the output impedance of the amp needs to be "matched" to the impedance of the headphones. Not "matched" as in equal, but matched in capability. The output impedance of the amp needs to be much lower than the impedance of the headphones, to damp the resonances of the diaphragms. If you're driving low impedance balanced armature IEMs, look for an amp with 1 ohm or less of output impedance. If you're using 300 ohm headphones, an amp with up to 10 or 20 ohms of output impedance will do. You also need to consider the voltage swing available from the amp, high impedance headphones often require higher voltages to reach a useful level. The ideal headphone amp would have low noise, low output impedance and high output voltage capability. In the real world, different amps have different strengths and weaknesses.

Thanks for that.

It does, to its detriment. Therefore it's not that a better amp "improves" the imaging, but a crappier amp or any device that happens to have a headphone jack has higher crosstalk, distortion, noise, etc, at the loudness you listen to. So basically, the more high fidelity and amp is, it just won't mess up the imaging. But then there's the problem of headphones and the way music is recorded for playback. Music is recorded for playback on speakers, where both ears hear both speakers in a room. On a headphone system, each ear only hears one driver.

And that's where subjectivity comes in to put all this in a confusing blender as people just praise "wide" soundstage even if the cymbals are way off to the flanks, which you may notice doesn't happen in real life until somebody gets exposed to cosmic energy and is able to stretch his arms out to the edge of the stage (personally, I'd rather see somebody like Def Leppard's drummer grow his arm back).

So as long as the amp is good enough, the effect on the sound quality should be negligible, if it can supply enough power without distortion and cross talk etc.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

So as long as the amp is good enough, the effect on the sound quality should be negligible, if it can supply enough power without distortion and cross talk etc.

Yes. If anything, an amp or DAC that has Crossfeed will "improve" the imaging precision and depth, since it will simulate how both ears should be able to hear both drivers in-room...or, given it's still scaled down, imagine installing 2in speakers in a large helmet (like the Spaceballs version of Darth Vader's helmet) except the drivers are roughly in front of your temples.