[ubs28]

The larger a driver the more life-like it sounds to the human brain, Yamie went 55mm on their vintage orthos, Senn 56mm in HD800 and Sony 50mm for R10...40mm doesn't fool my brain at all. Latest $300 monoprice ortho goes 10cm huh, it must sound like a wall of sound. 5 grand for 40mm means that everyone's in it and markups outrageous.

That is not true. If that is the case, then how is the Focal Utopia able to deliver better extension in bass and treble while offering also better technical performance than larger headphones such as the HD 800? Also the Focal Utopia is more dynamic.

Quality > size.

Else everybody would be making 100mm headphones or something.

 

[leeperry]

I'm not talking about bass/treble extension, I'm talking about fooling the humain brain to believe that it's hearing live sound and not tiny transducers. Yamie hit the jackpot with their 55mm ortho drivers and HD800 went 56mm, even R10 was 50mm, 4g's for 40mm looks like a major troll to me.

 

[Hutnicks]

I've demolished this argument (albeit before the Susvara came out). The MDR-R10 was $2600 in 1989, which is over $4000 in today's money and second-hand pairs (would) sell for $6-7k. The Qualia 010 above the equivalent of $4k. The SR-009 was over that too initially. It's an argument against nothing.

Good lord Amos, really???? I mean really? How do you consider that demolishing the argument in any way shape or form when in 1989 there was nothing on earth in the way of headphones that challenged the R10, it was light years ahead of the competition with the possible exception of STAX which were in the exact same price bracket.
You are not getting anywhere near that kind of leap in SQ with the new generation 5K phone de jeure. I am hearing different sound sigs and presentations but nothing whatsoever that would tempt me to spend money on something that could be obtained for 4 grand less and a little time modding.
For the love of Pete you might as well hold up Orpheus and Orpheus II as the new template for price point targets when you make an argument like that.

Sooner or later someone is going to have to admit that this mess of a marketers wet dream known as the "Flagship" is nothing more than a meager niche industry attempting to support itself by positioning its pinnacle as a Velben good. Inevitably when that niche collapses the small fry are going to be the ones to die off first. So by all means hype the bejeezus out of everything because the sooner the flags hit 10K a pop the sooner the collapse happens. Getting rid of the quality plagued punters cannot happen soon enough and perhaps at that point the professional corps will get down to business agian and offer up reasonably priced phones.

 

[Mink]

I was referring to the OP's post, but since you bring it up, arguments about the cost of the raw materials versus the cost of a completed product are also nonsense. We're not paying for raw materials, we're paying for everything else. That "everything else" is what people don't appreciate the time, effort and stress required to complete.

Back to the original argument: Cheap headphones are getting much better than before, so if anything, the value is improving. When you add to the vastly improved electronics available, then a good system is getting cheaper, not more expensive. The multi-thousand dollar headphones aren't affecting that IMO. I believe what caused the insanity in the 2-channel world was the audio magazines and the people that read them that pushed gear that is expensive and shiny over everything else. Head-Fi people are quite different, and beyond that it's a different generation of consumers.

I was ready to post exactly that. You can get a pair of AKG K550s and be done, and I mean this.

 

[Currawong]

Good lord Amos, really???? I mean really? How do you consider that demolishing the argument in any way shape or form when in 1989 there was nothing on earth in the way of headphones that challenged the R10, it was light years ahead of the competition with the possible exception of STAX which were in the exact same price bracket.
You are not getting anywhere near that kind of leap in SQ with the new generation 5K phone de jeure. I am hearing different sound sigs and presentations but nothing whatsoever that would tempt me to spend money on something that could be obtained for 4 grand less and a little time modding.
For the love of Pete you might as well hold up Orpheus and Orpheus II as the new template for price point targets when you make an argument like that.

Sooner or later someone is going to have to admit that this mess of a marketers wet dream known as the "Flagship" is nothing more than a meager niche industry attempting to support itself by positioning its pinnacle as a Velben good. Inevitably when that niche collapses the small fry are going to be the ones to die off first. So by all means hype the bejeezus out of everything because the sooner the flags hit 10K a pop the sooner the collapse happens. Getting rid of the quality plagued punters cannot happen soon enough and perhaps at that point the professional corps will get down to business agian and offer up reasonably priced phones.

I don't recall hyping anything, if you've cared to read or watch the reviews I make. I put the HD800 (2009) as having the same technical level of performance as the MDR-R10 (1989). Given how much cheaper they were, and now are than the R10, that means things have been getting cheaper for the same performance, which is my argument against the idea that prices are going up. The Orpheus etc. do not affect that and I don't believe are likely to do more than offend certain people who can afford them, while providing expensive toys for a small number of people who can afford and are willing to pay for them. People are offering reasonably-priced headphones right now, again, irrespective of those ultra-flagships and the $5k expensive models you have issue with.

Personally though, my experience with the 009s and Utopias has been that they perform vastly better than other headphones I've had time with. I've not spent sufficient time with an Abyss, however. Nor with the Susvara. My experience with those so far, at meets, has not swayed my aim to get a pair of Utopias.

Once again, I don't think the handful of very expensive headphones out there are going to cause the market to go price crazy. Ultrasone has been doing this before HiFiMan, Focal and Abyss, and they are practically ignored here, let alone had any influence post ED8.

 

[Hutnicks]

OK now we are getting a little further into it. When you state "vastly better" are you implying better in the manner that the R 10 was over it's peers in it's day or is it an incremental improvement?

My opinion is that they are incremental improvements which makes me believe we are being asked to pay more for less of a leap in sound quality in todays market.

 

[Koolpep]

I want to throw out a thought here as well.

Look what you could buy for $300 10 years ago and what these $300 buy you today - or $100 or $50 or $30 or $10.

I think we also see an crazy increase in great sounding gear for LESS money. There are some absolutely amazing sounding low budget offerings that simply weren't available before. The HD650 drops in street price and still scales like mad with better amps. It's with everything in life - there are more choices. Example cars: current entry level cars are light years better than they used to be. But also the top of the range cars are getting more and more expensive as the expectations grow. Nothing will stop this as long as there are buyers.

What we can do is not to be butthurt because we suddenly cannot afford the flagships anymore - because what we can afford has also increased in performance - so we all win.

Just a thought.

Cheers.

 

[GearMe]

^This! Kind of a view on life thing -- glass half-empty / half-full. etc. First world problems for sure...

Gotta say I'm ecstatic to have all of the different 'sound rooms' that I have now for the prices that I've paid. When I was into 2-channel audio, it cost a small fortune (relatively speaking) to have 3 sound rooms...one for acoustic music with planar or electrostatic speakers, one for rock/blues with dynamic speakers, and one for home theater. Spent way too much money for those 3 options and, on top of that, couldn't always listen to them the way I preferred to (i.e. late at night, company was over,)

Now...if I'm listening to acoustic jazz, I can pull out one set of headphones; rock another, classical another, hip hop another, etc. And, if the Senns aren't hitting the sweet spot that day, I can try the HiFiMans or Beyers.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I've purposely imposed some limits on myself -- $1000 or less for cans and $600 or less (each) for dacs and amps...works for me. Has it impacted some purchases? Yeah, for instance I got the HD800 instead of the HD800S as an example. That said, I can wait until they introduce the HD800T (or whatever it's called) to pick up the HD800S.

The painful one, though, is that I've 'settled' in the electrostatic space by getting ESP-950s!
The thought has run through my mind to sell it all and get some SR-009s and a Blue Hawaii amp (throw in a Yggy and call it a day). But somehow, I know I'd get the itch to add a set of dynamics...one little HD800S couldn't hurt...right?

 

[DancingShade]

You have been indoctrinated. If you think $1k is a reasonable price for a mid-range headphone, then you are part of the problem.

Then it's a good thing I didn't say that. If you re-read the post you quoted I said you can get some pretty amazing headphones for under a grand (end statement).

Then I said that perhaps summit-fi isn't getting any cheaper but that mid fi quality is going up all the time.

At no point did I refer to a notion of value - that's going to be highly subjective anyway. I was talking about quality.

If you want a value statement out of me then fine - the Final Audio Sonorous IIIs on my head right now are fantastic and they don't even come close to a grand. Excellent value right there.

 

[Currawong]

OK now we are getting a little further into it. When you state "vastly better" are you implying better in the manner that the R 10 was over it's peers in it's day or is it an incremental improvement?

My opinion is that they are incremental improvements which makes me believe we are being asked to pay more for less of a leap in sound quality in todays market.

The R10 was, possibly 'stats excepted, obviously vastly better than anything else out there. My point is basically what Koolpep wrote. Your argument, that we are being "asked to pay more for less of a leap in sound quality" would, I reckon, be quite reasonable for specific headphones. However the OP's argument is that "The inflation in headphones prices is running amok." which I don't agree with, as the sound quality available from both headphones and supporting gear has increased significantly. Also, the sound quality available at quite low price points has increased astronomically.

The common fear is that the headphone market will go in the direction of the 2-channel market, where everyone expects flagship gear to cost at least 5 figures. That is most definitely NOT happening even though three companies have released $50k+ headphone systems. I don't believe it is going to start a trend amongst the companies that are popular on Head-Fi. That's not to say that high-end 2-channel companies wont start to sell $10k+ headphone amps and headphones, but I don't think it will affect us, as it is a super niche industry as you point out. The median price of flagships discussed here is still about $2k-4k, which is effectively the same price a pair of R10s cost in 1989. Effectively, that has not changed.

 

[kman1211]

The R10 was, possibly 'stats excepted, obviously vastly better than anything else out there. My point is basically what Koolpep wrote. Your argument, that we are being "asked to pay more for less of a leap in sound quality" would, I reckon, be quite reasonable for specific headphones. However the OP's argument is that "The inflation in headphones prices is running amok." which I don't agree with, as the sound quality available from both headphones and supporting gear has increased significantly. Also, the sound quality available at quite low price points has increased astronomically.

The common fear is that the headphone market will go in the direction of the 2-channel market, where everyone expects flagship gear to cost at least 5 figures. That is most definitely NOT happening even though three companies have released $50k+ headphone systems. I don't believe it is going to start a trend amongst the companies that are popular on Head-Fi. That's not to say that high-end 2-channel companies wont start to sell $10k+ headphone amps and headphones, but I don't think it will affect us, as it is a super niche industry as you point out. The median price of flagships discussed here is still about $2k-4k, which is effectively the same price a pair of R10s cost in 1989. Effectively, that has not changed.

True, the R10 was pretty much better than anything else back then and that's a real testament to the engineering behind it, it's still my favorite dynamic headphone preferring it over the Utopia, but I wouldn't say it's technically better, just the bass-heavy R10's sound signature and the sound system it was on really jives with me. That's the problem with the R10 it was so much better than anything else back then, it was like hearing the voice of god so to speak but the problem is it's excessively expensive now, rare, and not to mention on the fragile side. It's just not worth it anymore unless you have the disposable income to purchase one. And honestly if I were to get something now in the summit-fi range, it would likely be the Utopia, Z1R, HD 800S or the SR-007 MKII(prefer this headphones sound sig over the SR-009). But I agree, the ultra high-end headphones cost wise hasn't gone up, outside of those $50k statement products which almost no one is going to own anyways. Honestly it's the sub-$1000 headphones coming out that I've been more impressed by, the Amiron Home and DT 1990 have really impressed me for example. I also really liked the Elear despite my somewhat mixed feelings on it's sound signature and would like to own one as it grew on me during my time having it on tour.

 

[Currawong]

Incidentally I did try the new Stax T8000 with the 009s, and they sound completely different. That, plus a DAVE would do it for me.

 

[Slaphead]

...Honestly it's the sub-$1000 headphones coming out that I've been more impressed by, the Amiron Home and DT 1990 have really impressed me for example. I also really liked the Elear despite my somewhat mixed feelings on it's sound signature and would like to own one as it grew on me during my time having it on tour.

Totally agree with that. After I got the DT1990s, which I use with a Mojo, I did wonder how much better it could get. However since then I've demoed various bits of summit-fi, quite many of the usual suspects in that price range, always with my Mojo and DT1990s on hand, and so far I've failed to have been convinced that Summit-Fi offers me much more than I already have, even if it was only twice what the Mojo and DT1990 cost me together, let alone 15 times as some of the setups have been.

To anybody new in this hobby the only thing I can honestly say is keep it real with regards to how much you can realistically afford to spend, and keep it real with regards to your ears. If you go out and demo Summit-Fi and it impresses you, then as a reality check always demo a setup in the Mid-Fi price range. You may find that there's not an awful lot in it, and there's a good chance you'll save yourself a lot of money.

I'm pretty much of the opinion that, based on what I've heard, once you reach the $500 mark anything above that is really a case of personal taste with regards to sound signature. I can fully appreciate that there are others in this hobby that may consider what Summit-Fi brings is fully worth their financial investment, but I'm afraid it isn't for me.

 

[WoodyLuvr]

Totally agree with that. After I got the DT1990s, which I use with a Mojo, I did wonder how much better it could get. However since then I've demoed various bits of summit-fi, quite many of the usual suspects in that price range, always with my Mojo and DT1990s on hand, and so far I've failed to have been convinced that Summit-Fi offers me much more than I already have, even if it was only twice what the Mojo and DT1990 cost me together, let alone 15 times as some of the setups have been.

To anybody new in this hobby the only thing I can honestly say is keep it real with regards to how much you can realistically afford to spend, and keep it real with regards to your ears. If you go out and demo Summit-Fi and it impresses you, then as a reality check always demo a setup in the Mid-Fi price range. You may find that there's not an awful lot in it, and there's a good chance you'll save yourself a lot of money.

I'm pretty much of the opinion that, based on what I've heard, once you reach the $500 mark anything above that is really a case of personal taste with regards to sound signature. I can fully appreciate that there are others in this hobby that may consider what Summit-Fi brings is fully worth their financial investment, but I'm afraid it isn't for me.

Concur.

Took me a few lessons but I finally learned... final lesson was when my wife dragged me to Bangkok one day back in early 2015 to buy the A&K 120ii that I had been dreaming about... but once I had it in my hands and listened to it I couldn't at all justify paying the price for something only beautifully made (and indeed it was beautiful). I simply could not discern any difference (sonically) from my iPhone and the A&K UI was no where near as friendly... I really was disappointed to say the least but it opened my eyes some.

Other lessons were: my LCD-2 impulse buy which ended in my gifting them away as they had become dust collectors (they were way too heavy and uncomfortable); my demoing SE215SPEs which are so close to sounding like my SE535LTD-Js that if I had a do-over I would have bought them instead and called it a day; and my intentions to buy JVC HA-FX1200s and coming home with the much cheaper HA-FX750 instead (due to a much superior fit and friendlier sound signature).

 

[Harry Manback]

Then it's a good thing I didn't say that. If you re-read the post you quoted I said you can get some pretty amazing headphones for under a grand (end statement).

Then I said that perhaps summit-fi isn't getting any cheaper but that mid fi quality is going up all the time.

At no point did I refer to a notion of value - that's going to be highly subjective anyway. I was talking about quality.

If you want a value statement out of me then fine - the Final Audio Sonorous IIIs on my head right now are fantastic and they don't even come close to a grand. Excellent value right there.

Your writing seemed to me to indicate that you consider $1000 to be a ceiling for mid-fi. If this isn't what you meant, then I mistook your intent.

For a grand, a set of headphones should have very few deficiencies and sound great. IMHO, $1000 should get you end game gear. I have listened to 2 sets costing over that amount that had serious flaws. One set had several flaws.

Cheers!