[bleudeciel16]

Quote:

As it sounds like your using this computer for gaming, I do not think you would notice the difference between optical and coaxial while your busy gaming.

 
in gaming, maybe not, but I listen to a lot of music. music is the main purpose for my headphone setup. even when i wasn't gaming it picked up noise--just not as badly as it did while gaming

 

[bleudeciel16]

Gave up and bought the ASUS xonar essence stx. It's basically serving as a $200 digital spdif coax out

 

[PurpleAngel]

Quote:

Gave up and bought the ASUS xonar essence stx. It's basically serving as a $200 digital spdif coax out

I believe with the STX digital output, you can still use the STX for surround sound gaming and movies.
Believe you need to set the STX's "SPDIFl Out" to PCM, not DDL (Dolby Digital Live).
Set "Audio Channel" to 8-channel for surround sound and to 2-channel for music.
Did you disable, in the bios, the motherboard's built in sound?

 

[bleudeciel16]

I believe with the STX digital output, you can still use the STX for surround sound gaming and movies.
Believe you need to set the STX's "SPDIFl Out" to PCM, not DDL (Dolby Digital Live).
Set "Audio Channel" to 8-channel for surround sound and to 2-channel for music.
Did you disable, in the bios, the motherboard's built in sound?

Yeah it's disabled at the moment because I've been using my fiio e7. I don't actually like surround sound so I'll set it to 2 channel and leave it that way

 

[DrNebula11]

If I were you, I would use the STX. I have a GTX 550 Ti in my system, but haven't noticed any noise coming from my Xonar DX. Maybe your setup is just too different? Anyway, good luck on your audio endeavors.

 

[bleudeciel16]

I can't imagine the DAC in the xonar being near as good as the one in the Bifrost (considering Bifrost is twice the cost and is strictly a DAC)

But yeah, at least I have a nice clean card to connect my DAC to now lol

 

[authistic]

DAC's are overrated. They are the least important part of the chain.
The STX is a very good card. Connect your amp to it and give it a listen. If you don't like the sound -> buy new headphones. No way a DAC will turn a not pleasing setup into a great one.

 

[bleudeciel16]

Quote:

DAC's are overrated. They are the least important part of the chain.
The STX is a very good card. Connect your amp to it and give it a listen. If you don't like the sound -> buy new headphones. No way a DAC will turn a not pleasing setup into a great one.

 
somewhat disagree with you.  bang for the buck, they aren't the best upgrade.  the upgrade from a good soundcard to an external dac isn't going to be a big difference for the money you'll have to pay, but for most people, if they're going from a soundcard to an external dac, it's because they're picking up noise inside the case.  my 570's in sli were feeding a ton of noise into my ht omega claro sound card.  it's a reputable sound card and despite the quality dac it uses, it doesn't mean crap when it's being ruined by noise it picks up from the video.
 
plus, if you're paying $500+ for headphones, you won't get your money's worth of sound out of them if you have weak links in your chain.

 

[stv014]

Quote:

but for most people, if they're going from a soundcard to an external dac, it's because they're picking up noise inside the case.  my 570's in sli were feeding a ton of noise into my ht omega claro sound card.

 
That is a separate issue that affects some people, but not others. I have no noise issues, for example, although I do not use SLI graphics cards either. "I can't imagine the DAC in the xonar being near as good as the one in the Bifrost" implies that the Xonar is guaranteed to be inferior to the Schiit DAC, noise or not. That can easily be false, and higher price does not equate to better performance; I have seen really poor DACs sold at ridiculously high prices. The fact is that expensive components are not needed for good DAC performance (you can get excellent DAC chips for less than $10), it is more a matter of design and implementation; Schiit products are admittedly "designed by ear", and that is not necessarily the best approach to finding an optimal PCB layout, for example. A sound card is also inherently cheaper because it is mass manufactured in China in much larger quantities, sold at lower profit margins than a typical audiophile product, and is basically a bare board with no enclosure, power transformers, etc.

 

[bleudeciel16]

Quote:

 
That is a separate issue that affects some people, but not others. I have no noise issues, for example, although I do not use SLI graphics cards either. "I can't imagine the DAC in the xonar being near as good as the one in the Bifrost" implies that the Xonar is guaranteed to be inferior to the Schiit DAC, noise or not. That can easily be false, and higher price does not equate to better performance; I have seen really poor DACs sold at ridiculously high prices. The fact is that expensive components are not needed for good DAC performance (you can get excellent DAC chips for less than $10), it is more a matter of design and implementation; Schiit products are admittedly "designed by ear", and that is not necessarily the best approach to finding an optimal PCB layout, for example. A sound card is also inherently cheaper because it is mass manufactured in China in much larger quantities, sold at lower profit margins than a typical audiophile product, and is basically a bare board with no enclosure, power transformers, etc.

 
I know there are exceptions (Bose comes to mind almost immediately), but the trend is generally true.  You have to pay to play.  With the exceptions, you're paying for either a brand name logo, aesthetics, or old reputation that's degraded over time.
 
And I know the components themselves are cheap.  I'm an EE. I know that most of the price is R&D.
 
I find it hard to believe that a company like Schiit, in the signal processing industry, does everything "by ear."  Unless by that you meant that they don't design their stuff to have a flat output.  Heck, if everyone designed their product to have a flat output, head-fi and the audiophile community in general would be pretty boring.
 
I still believe external DACs have a huge advantage.
 
The company picks the power supply.  They have the advantage of tuning their filtering circuits specifically to their power supply.  They're also not located inside the computer case so they don't pick up EMI.  If you use optical, you even rule out noise from a dirty ground.
 
With a soundcard, you have to hope that your PSU has good filtering on the output stage, along with your motherboard's power filtering, along with the soundcard.  I think the only times they don't have this problem is on the high end cards that accept molex for power.  Then they can do the filtering themselves. (though you still rely on the PSU outputting fairly clean power to that rail to begin with.)  Even if the power supply were to have a perfect filter for the input power, you still have EMI.  When you have PC's with 100w cpus, multiple 220w gpu's (in my case) and kilowatt power supplies, you have some seriously high power components creating a ton of EMI just a couple inches away from your soundcard.  Soundcards picking up noise from graphics cards is VERY common.  (and very annoying)
 
You just don't have to deal with that with an external DAC.
 
And I'm saying all this knowing that DACs probably have the worst return for the money.  The worst bang for the buck.  They don't scale with price as well as headphones (or bitrate for source files) do.  Or even amps.  But when you're running $500+ headphones, you aren't getting your money's worth if you have cheap components in your chain.  I'm not saying the Schiit DAC will be leaps and bounds better than my HT Omega Claro sound card, but I'll know for a fact I won't have the (extremely terrible) noise I used to have.   That alone will make this DAC worth its weight in gold. (and it's a heavy SOB)
 

 

[stv014]

Quote:

 
i thought coax has higher bandwidth, is straight digital stream (doesn't convert to from electrical to light back to electrical like fiber), and doesn't have issues with jitter like fiber. that would have nothing to do with the dac.  i'm going off of what i've read everywhere, and the guy from schiit said coax > optical > usb.  so i'm just trying to do this right by the books lol

 
Bandwidth is not an issue for audio, USB is capable of much more than what is needed for a DAC. S/PDIF - both coaxial and optical - does have jitter, since the clock signal is embedded in the audio stream, and needs to be reconstructed. Asynchronous USB is the least prone to jitter, as the timing is controlled by the DAC instead of the source, which only needs to send the data in sufficiently short time. In all cases, the DAC has its own local clock, which, with the exception of asynchronous USB, needs to adapt to the input stream while rejecting jitter as much as possible. The actual amount of jitter in the analog output of a DAC does depend significantly on how well the device is designed and implemented. However, with competent engineering, it is possible to reduce jitter to well below audible levels without using asynchronous USB or expensive/exotic components.

 

[bleudeciel16]

Quote:

 
Bandwidth is not an issue for audio, USB is capable of much more than what is needed for a DAC. S/PDIF - both coaxial and optical - does have jitter, since the clock signal is embedded in the audio stream, and needs to be reconstructed. Asynchronous USB is the least prone to jitter, as the timing is controlled by the DAC instead of the source, which only needs to send the data in sufficiently short time. In all cases, the DAC has its own local clock, which, with the exception of asynchronous USB, needs to adapt to the input stream while rejecting jitter as much as possible. The actual amount of jitter in the analog output of a DAC does depend significantly on how well the device is designed and implemented. However, with competent engineering, it is possible to reduce jitter to well below audible levels without using asynchronous USB or expensive/exotic components.

 
Well I wanted to go with USB for simplicity, but not for the $100 price tag of the Schiit USB Module.  Optical was my next choice, but Jason from Schiit said they recommend, in order from best to worst, Coax > Optical > USB.  So, unless I run into issues, I'll be going with coax.  I figure the guys who designed the product probably know what's best for it.  Optical is where I'll turn to if for some reason coax doesn't work out.

 

[stv014]

Quote:

I know there are exceptions (Bose comes to mind almost immediately), but the trend is generally true.  You have to pay to play.  With the exceptions, you're paying for either a brand name logo, aesthetics, or old reputation that's degraded over time.

 
In the case of "audiophile" products, these exceptions are unfortunately very common. You can easily spend excess amounts of money on what is unnecessary overkill in the best case, and snake oil worse than much cheaper products in the worst case.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bleudeciel16 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I know that most of the price is R&D.

 
Therefore, you should know the "more expensive is better" argument is even more flawed when you compare a product to another that is manufactured and sold in very different quantities.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bleudeciel16 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I find it hard to believe that a company like Schiit, in the signal processing industry, does everything "by ear."  Unless by that you meant that they don't design their stuff to have a flat output.

 
Well, their products with features like fully discrete designs, not using negative feedback, single ended class A outputs, vacuum tubes, excessive power output, etc. (these can increase price and power consumption, or make measured performance and reliability worse) are sold on the basis that they sound better, even though it cannot be proven objectively.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bleudeciel16 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Heck, if everyone designed their product to have a flat output, head-fi and the audiophile community in general would be pretty boring.

 
Of course, it is everyone's free choice to use an amplifier and/or DAC as an overpriced and inflexible EQ or distortion effect with only one setting, but that does not mean that cheaper alternatives that are only intended to get out of the way and have the minimum possible effect on the audio signal are inferior or unsuitable for use with high quality headphones or speakers.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bleudeciel16 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I still believe external DACs have a huge advantage.
 
The company picks the power supply.  They have the advantage of tuning their filtering circuits specifically to their power supply.  They're also not located inside the computer case so they don't pick up EMI.  If you use optical, you even rule out noise from a dirty ground.
 
With a soundcard, you have to hope that your PSU has good filtering on the output stage, along with your motherboard's power filtering, along with the soundcard.  I think the only times they don't have this problem is on the high end cards that accept molex for power.  Then they can do the filtering themselves. (though you still rely on the PSU outputting fairly clean power to that rail to begin with.)  Even if the power supply were to have a perfect filter for the input power, you still have EMI.  When you have PC's with 100w cpus, multiple 220w gpu's (in my case) and kilowatt power supplies, you have some seriously high power components creating a ton of EMI just a couple inches away from your soundcard.  Soundcards picking up noise from graphics cards is VERY common.  (and very annoying)

 
I already acknowledged the possibility of interference issues with sound cards, so they are obviously not an universally good choice. However, not everyone is using monstrous overclocked GPUs/low quality motherboards/noisy power supplies, have ground loops, or whatever else is typically causing the noise problems. I never encountered any that I could not fix. When performing as advertised, a sound card can be a good value for the money, and outperform a similarly priced external DAC.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bleudeciel16 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
But when you're running $500+ headphones, you aren't getting your money's worth if you have cheap components in your chain.

 
"Price matching" is a very common, but flawed argument by audiophiles. It implies that if you have $1000 headphones, you have to buy a $1000 amplifier, $1000 DAC, $1000 cables, etc. to do "justice" to them. This completely ignores the relative effect of these components on the overall audio quality, and the fact that after some (not too difficult to reach) point humans cannot even hear the further improvement even if it exists and is not just marketing. Basically, with an STX->Bifrost->Asgard chain, you spend nearly $800 to drive $500 HD650s, while for example a $250 ODAC+O2 combination would have worked fine, possibly have better objective performance, and leave enough money even for an LCD2 instead of the HD650.

 

[bleudeciel16]

Quote:

 
"Price matching" is a very common, but flawed argument by audiophiles. It implies that if you have $1000 headphones, you have to buy a $1000 amplifier, $1000 DAC, $1000 cables, etc. to do "justice" to them. This completely ignores the relative effect of these components on the overall audio quality, and the fact that after some (not too difficult to reach) point humans cannot even hear the further improvement even if it exists and is not just marketing. Basically, with an STX->Bifrost->Asgard chain, you spend nearly $800 to drive $500 HD650s, while for example a $250 ODAC+O2 combination would have worked fine, possibly have better objective performance, and leave enough money even for an LCD2 instead of the HD650.

 
Good god this will never end.  You're one of those people who argue just to argue.
 
I know mid priced stuff can yield great sound.  (hence my ht omega claro and little dot II, or my fiio e7 and e9)
 
I know that money doesn't directly scale with sound quality.
 
I know that beyond the median bang for the buck headphones, you start to get less return for the money. (almost exponentially)
 
I know that DACs yield the least amount of "difference" in sound quality in contrast to headphones or amps.
 
I never said that I had to "price match" to get good sound.  I'm not dumb.  I'm well aware that I could've used the stx and a bottlehead crack and got similar sound for a lot less money.  Money isn't really an obstacle for me, so I don't need to get the bang for the buck stuff if I want to splurge on something more expensive.  (regardless of if it'll actually get me that much more performance or not)
 
If I wanted to save money, I would've stuck with my "temporary" ath-m50's plugged through my fiio e7.
 
As far as objective performance... that isn't always important in the audiophile world.  Just because something looks good on paper doesn't mean that's how it's observed to someone's ears.
 
I researched headphones and decided on the HD650.  I could easily afford several thousand dollar headphones if I wanted to.  I know sennheiser for making fairly lightweight headphones that are known to be comfortable. (I've owned two pairs of them already, and know firsthand)  I wanted HD595-like sound, open and airy, with more soundstage and a little more bass.  I decided the HD650's would be the perfect fit for me.  LCD2 was ruled out.  Same with the heavy HE-### headphones.  I got what I wanted.
 
Everything on my desk is aesthetically pleasing (and mostly matching).  The schiit gear looks great.  They stack because they have the same chassis dimensions.  Perfect. (i have triple monitors hogging most of my deskspace)
 
They're fairly well reviewed.  Nothing groundbreaking, and never called good bang for the buck, but just generally good overall.  (for the price)  The bifrost is upgradable with a modular dac board.  I liked the look and design and reviews, and the price looked good, so I bought it.  the other good dac/amps with similar look cost twice as much.  the other good dacs that are cheaper looked ugly.
 
i have a powerful computer (albeit with a high end motheboard and power supply, going through a line conditioner), and have problems with noise.  yes, i could engineer a fix for the noise.  i shouldn't have to.  i'd rather move the dac outside the computer case and not have to worry about it. and that's what i did.
 
I bought what I want, because I did my research and picked what I wanted.  You coming in here and telling me what I should've bought is just asinine.  i spent what i wanted on what i wanted and i'm happy with my purchases and sleep well at night.  i hope that's ok with you.

 

[stv014]

Quote:

I never said that I had to "price match" to get good sound.  I'm not dumb.

 
Well, it is you who wrote "But when you're running $500+ headphones, you aren't getting your money's worth if you have cheap components in your chain". That statement does imply a "price matching" type of logic (i.e. cheap = unacceptable, even if objectively good enough).
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bleudeciel16 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
As far as objective performance... that isn't always important in the audiophile world.  Just because something looks good on paper doesn't mean that's how it's observed to someone's ears.

 
I am very aware of that, but discussing it would be off-topic here and would probably get the thread moved to "Sound Science".

 
Quote:

I bought what I want, because I did my research and picked what I wanted.  You coming in here and telling me what I should've bought is just asinine.

 
I do not care about what you buy at all, it is your money. I used your setup only as a random example of overpriced gear. Remember, I originally responded to your claim that "I can't imagine the DAC in the xonar being near as good as the one in the Bifrost" and others that implied that low cost necessarily equals to poor quality.