[antonyfirst]

Hey grawk, how much would battery last with a Nokia 800/810 and a Pico? Thanks

 

[grawk]

I don't have either. It's just my understanding that it can act as a usb host, and has audio drivers.

 

[NoiseGUI]

Forgive my lack of audiophile vocabulary, but in my response to the OP... All impressions are using my burnt in HD650s w/ SAA Equinox, playing ALAC files, sipping on a Corona.

I feel the Pico DAC actually gives me very similar sound to the iMod DAC. I cannot currently discern the difference. Both have great soundstage and detail, punch separation, definition, and all that jazz. I hear the Pico's DAC is the bomb, but they sound similar to me. Surely can't be the case... Still evaluating.

Comparing the iMod with my Predator DAC, I certainly prefer my iMod DAC for detail/overall clarity. Thus I certainly prefer the Pico DAC over the Predator's.

Compared to my Laptop's built in Sound Card, the Predator and Pico are a serious step up.

My conundrum is that I actually prefer the Predator Amp (340 hours) over the Pico's (80 hours, but word on the street = no burn-in required), and per Jamato it's only gonna get better?

I also prefer the predator's amp to the Tomahawk. Simply more bass and punch while maintaining clarity. Preference I guess.

Will post updated thoughts when I can compare more thoroughly. Just wish I had a VCap.

(anyone want to trade their's for my 300+ hour Tommy?)

 

[Aurven]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoiseGUI /img/forum/go_quote.gif Forgive my lack of audiophile vocabulary, but in my response to the OP... All impressions are using my burnt in HD650s w/ SAA Equinox, playing ALAC files, sipping on a Corona. I feel the Pico DAC actually gives me very similar sound to the iMod DAC. I cannot currently discern the difference. Both have great soundstage and detail, punch separation, definition, and all that jazz. I hear the Pico's DAC is the bomb, but they sound similar to me. Surely can't be the case... Still evaluating. Comparing the iMod with my Predator DAC, I certainly prefer my iMod DAC for detail/overall clarity. Thus I certainly prefer the Pico DAC over the Predator's. Compared to my Laptop's built in Sound Card, the Predator and Pico are a serious step up. My conundrum is that I actually prefer the Predator Amp (340 hours) over the Pico's (80 hours, but word on the street = no burn-in required), and per Jamato it's only gonna get better? I also prefer the predator's amp to the Tomahawk. Simply more bass and punch while maintaining clarity. Preference I guess. Will post updated thoughts when I can compare more thoroughly. Just wish I had a VCap. (anyone want to trade their's for my 300+ hour Tommy?)

Would you agree with me that the Pico has a lusher, wider and fuller sound while the Predator is somewhat sharper and clearer? Sorry for the imprecise descriptions but I am trying my best here...

 

[NoiseGUI]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aurven /img/forum/go_quote.gif Would you agree with me that the Pico has a lusher, wider and fuller sound while the Predator is somewhat sharper and clearer? Sorry for the imprecise descriptions but I am trying my best here...

This belongs in the Pico v Pred. thread, so see hear, as I disagree.

Now the Pico DAC definitely wins with me, but I was after the best DAC and Amp in one. Jamato’s forecast of an improving predator amp does not help in this regard.

 

[FallenAngel]

Well, in the words of someone smart and funny, I absolutely love the habit of Head-Fi where people talk about and recommend equipment they haven't even heard themselves.

On to the current debate - just look at the specs:
iPod : WM8975 (same as WM8971)
Pico : WM8740

No matter what caps you have on the output of a WM8975, it will not have specs close to as good as that of the WM8740. PERIOD! You can easily have a more pleasant sound by using high quality caps on the output of a WM8975 if compared to bad caps on the output WM8740, but lets assume there are nice caps in the Pico.

Of course, the Pico doesn't have V-Caps in it, it most likely has electrolytic coupling caps, I'm guessing BlackGate NX, but I really am guessing here, someone do chime in if you know which caps it uses for coupling DAC to AMP.

Whoever mentioned that WM8741 could have been used in the Pico, unfortunately this chip is virtually impossible to find in production quantities, I'm following the OPUS DAC from Twisted Pear Audio News and they're in the same boat about using that chip.

USB limitations are 16Bit / 48KHz, that's IT, nothing more. Yes, it could be upsampled downstream, as is in the Pico and if it's upsampled to 96KHz, yes you can use 24bits for resolution, but input signal will be 16 bits, you're just using more bits to "try" and not lose resolution when getting 44.1K multiplied by some funky number to get 96K. USB will not send a higher resolution signal than that. I said it was 44.1KHz because the source file was likely ripped from CD and unless you're talking about SACD or DVD-A, it will be 44.1KHz. For those other media it's a different story, but you're still looking at a maximum of 16 Bits / 48 KHz through USB maximum.

EDIT: The one thing I don't like about the Pico is that you can't use it simply as a source which would seriously KICK ASS! I like the DAC in there, but the amp is another story (I'm spoiled and I love my PPAS). Now if we can get that tiny little DAC separate, that would be "happy dance material"!

 

[slwiser]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FallenAngel /img/forum/go_quote.gif No matter what caps you have on the output of a WM8975, it will not have specs close to as good as that of the WM8740. PERIOD!

This is indisputable fact...as good as my iMod and Auricap doc may be the Pico has a higher potential for performance. I may not be able to tell the difference myself but I would be surprised in the Pico did not measure significantly better than the iMod. I would also be surprise if I could not tell some difference but would that difference be significant to me? That is another question I will probably never answer.

 

[FallenAngel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by slwiser /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is indisputable fact...as good as my iMod and Auricap doc may be the Pico has a higher potential for performance. I may not be able to tell the difference myself but I would be surprised in the Pico did not measure significantly better than the iMod. I would also be surprise if I could not tell some difference but would that difference be significant to me? That is another question I will probably never answer.

That's true, but consider that the amp in the Pico isn't the best you can get and with an iMod, you can use another amp, you're looking at a serious trade-off. Have a better DAC in the Pico and be stuck with the amp or take a loss on the DAC in the iMod, have your choice of higher quality output caps and use whatever amp you want.

 

[stevenkelby]

I own both and have compared them extensively.

I normally don't post my impressions/comparisons anymore because I don't want to get into all the stupid cable type arguments, and I have no proof for my conclusions.

I'll say my piece here though in case anyone believes me!

My imod is an 80GB, Rockboxed with FLACs, to a V-CAP dock with 3.3 OIMPs and .22 TFTF.

All wires are 22G Jena wire and 20G silver, 2 strands of each. This is my favorite, won't say why in public as explained above!

The Pico is using the same files through ASIO4ALL in Foobar.

Using the USB input for the Pico DAC, or the Pico input for the imod, both signals obviously get amped through the Pico.

One thing no-one notices or at least talks about with imods/ipods is that they all have a quiet ticking noise in the background, even without the HD spinning (which adds almost zero noise of it's own). I'm not sure what causes this ticking but it's there in all HD based ipods, haven't tried any flash based ones.

The ticking noise is easily heard by pausing the track and cranking up the volume to max. It's maybe 2 3 times per second.

With music playing, it's unnoticeable. The ticking is quieter than the background noise on even the quietest FLAC with Rockbox OR ALAC with Apple F/W.

Also, charging while listening adds a slight bit of noise, again unnoticeable while listening.

The Pico, when the charger is plugged in, there is absolutely zero noise generated, nothing. The Pico is a very quiet background anyway until max volume, it's still very quiet even then.

So, which sounds better?

With average headphones or without really paying attention they are close in most respects, but ultimately, the winner is the Pico, no question. It is close, but the Pico has better sound quality. I don't want to get into specifics too much but the main improvement is in the sound stage and separation of instruments, the Pico is more precise. There is more silence between notes and the imaging is more convincing. Most other parameters are very, very close.

To the guy who said FLACs through Rockbox give hiss, there is something wrong there, mine is a quiet as possible given the ticking.

 

[manaox2]

The DAC is almost certainly better. I am more concerned by the amp section. I agree it needs a line out to be used as source. It seems wasted on a portable amp section. If it where separate or in a Gilmore Lite, it would almost certainly have made this topic's argument seem absurd.

 

[stevenkelby]

Yeah it's a pity you can't bypass the Pico internal amp, but it's a good amp! I used it as a preamp to my RWA Sig 30.2 for my loudspeakers and Taket H2 (sold) and it sounded excellent, still slightly better than from the imod/v-caps.

The Pico is better everwhere than an imod with blackgates, I should say. V-Caps really lift the imod up a notch to compete with the Pico.

 

[antonyfirst]

Hey Steve,
Thanks for your impressions. I've throuwn a PM at you, I can't wait for the reply

 

[Musicdiddy]

Tried doing a search but I cannot find anything. I've ordered the Pico without the dac to use with my iPhone, is there any advantage to be gained by buying the Pico with dac if I am not using it with a PC/laptop?

 

[grawk]

Only in opportunity cost. Without the dac, you can NEVER use it that way.

 

[stevenkelby]

Quote:

Originally Posted by antonyfirst /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hey Steve, Thanks for your impressions. I've thrown a PM at you, I can't wait for the reply

Got it, enjoy the essay I wrote!


Quote:

Originally Posted by Musicdiddy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Tried doing a search but I cannot find anything. I've ordered the Pico without the dac to use with my iPhone, is there any advantage to be gained by buying the Pico with dac if I am not using it with a PC/laptop?

No, but $200 for that DAC is a no-brainer honestly, what if you DO get a computer one day and want to listen to music whilst computing?