[the search never ends]

@ Jeffz...... Agreed, making this thread was a gutsy move, and I'm sure joe knew some would not like it....as you said, they should feel free to avoid it, I am very happy with all the various views I am seeing.

EDIT.....This thread (after seeing a few posts I missed) just keeps getting more informative

 

[Kunlun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeFFz /img/forum/go_quote.gif wow, guess this is the fastest growing thread? lol. anyway this thread is a compilation of different users' reviews. whether an iem is considered top-tier is based on the OP's thinking since this is his thread. So for those who wants to see their favorite iems to be placed as top-tier should post comments, opinions as why they are top-tier to convince the OP. This thread could be a reference for other people and true that each people have different opinions on IEM, but well just leave average_joe to manage his thread. Those who are bashing this thread can feel free to leave and make their OWN thread.

I'd like to add something to this discussion: The manufacturers themselves contribute to (and perhaps invent) the notion of a "top-tier" iem in their product lines, and I don't only mean via pricing, but in sound quality, wiring, accessories, etc. They are the ones who give us the notion, at least within their product line, that there is a progression along several dimensions leading to the one product which is at the top for that given company.

Klipsch obvious means for the Image X10 to be it's top-tier iem as it's a lot higher not only in price but in quality over the S4. Same with Shure and the E530 etc etc etc. We can disagree and feel that the IE7 is better than the IE8, as some on the boards do, for example, but that's not how Sennheiser presents things.

Because of this, I don't think trying to think about what are top-tier iems needs to be considered an artificial construct or a discussion that is doomed.

Further, I would like offer my own defintion of a top-tier iem from a listener's perspective: A top-tier iem is one that has no major defects along any major dimension of sound quality and performs consistantly at a high level along all these dimensions. A top-tier iem needn't be the BEST at anything. Indeed, a hypothetical iem which was a close second place in everything would be amazing and worthy of being called top-tier.

In fact, if we look at our top-tier list now, this is pretty much exactly what we see. The Ortofon isn't being reported as the best in anything (bass, mid, treble, soundstage, etc.) but people report that it does everything very well. The people that don't care for it acknowledge that it's very good but it's sound signature doesn't match their tastes. Something similar could be said of the MTPCs, they are very good across the board and even when another iem is better in some category (such as IE8 with soundstage), everyone is quick to say that the MTPCs are nonetheless not lacking. It has no flaws in sound quality and many things to commend it.

The near-top-tier often have some issue that many people report, be it with a mid-bass hump that bleeds over into the mids (IE8), or rolled off treble and lacking in bass (SE530), etc. They are very good iems that many people love, but there is an issue or two that keep in the near-top-tier.

Anyway, that's how I'm making sense of this discussion. Now, I must get my 18-22 hours rest. Meow.

 

[james444]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunlun /img/forum/go_quote.gif Further, I would like offer my own defintion of a top-tier iem from a listener's perspective: A top-tier iem is one that has no major defects along any major dimension of sound quality and performs consistantly at a high level along all these dimensions. A top-tier iem needn't be the BEST at anything. Indeed, a hypothetical iem which was a close second place in everything would be amazing and worthy of being called top-tier.

x2. In case that tier-attribute is necessary at all, I'd go along with your criteria.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunlun /img/forum/go_quote.gif In fact, if we look at our top-tier list now, this is pretty much exactly what we see. The Ortofon isn't being reported as the best in anything (bass, mid, treble, soundstage, etc.) but people report that it does everything very well.

To my ears the e-Q7 are the undisputed masters of transparency. I'm pretty confident, that in a blind test with all my IEMs, I'd pick them out within seconds exactly for this one reason.

 

[playingwithfire]

Man, if there is a consensus top dog in universal like the JH13 that'll be great. I set out to find a top end universal that does everything well what? 2-3 months ago. Keep finding iems that does one thing better than anyone else and the more I listen, the pickier I am. W3 with a sweet mid range such as the UM3X would be awesome. Alas, it's not happening.

 

[the search never ends]

Nice post Kunlun.....try not to miss the litter box next time..@ james444...I have no doubt concerning your claim....The orto's are a rare find.

 

[average_joe]

Again, thank you all for your input. First post updated again. And while I can't respond to every post, I do appreciate them all and take everything into consideration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisssssssss2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif As you climb the ladder to higher-end IEMS, you get diminishing returns. A lot of the time, you really can't justify the price on high end IEMs because the price for them doesn't make up for the sound that's just as good for 100 dollars cheaper.

While this may be true, I am not finding this to be true with what is discussed on head-fi, at least in the IEM world. And diminishing returns is not cut and dry, it is perspective.

Quote:

I find a lot of cheaper IEMs/full-size headphones sounding better than higher priced IEMs/full-size headphones. For example, in my opinion, the IE7s sound better than the IE8s because they're more neutral with similar qualities of the IE8. The IE8s are way too colored for my tastes and has an overpowering bass, but people here would consider the IE7s to be a lower tier to the IE8s because of the price tag.

The IE7/IE8 view is held by some, but not the consensus. Anything other examples other than the IE7/IE8? And thanks for your proclamation of doom

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunlun /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm glad Joe made this thread and the chart. So what if people disagree on points? There are a ton of iems out there and here the discussion is narrowed to a relative few. That's already pretty good. Shigzeo, please give your take on the iems you own according to Joe's format.

Thank you Kunlun. The whole point was for people to give their perspective, and of course people are not going to agree, which is why I have the Support and Opposed columns.

@ shigzeo, I value your informed, excellent opinion. Any time you want to correct me or throw in some of your vast wisdom, it would be greatly appreciated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elnero /img/forum/go_quote.gif Maybe I should have been more concise, the point I was trying to make is no matter how well intentioned, I see threads like this that try to differentiate tier's or this is better than that as becoming incredibly argumentative, biased and misleading to be of any real use to people looking for information. For example, you've already separated 3 IEM's as being better than all the others even though there seems to be quite a bit of dissension as to the validity of that.

Criticism is IMO all in the way it is said. This post was well put.

I know most of the IEMs in the chart by hearing them and know that they have their merits and weaknesses. The ultimate "top-tier" for me would be something that doesn't have a sonic weakness. Even the e-Q7 has been reported to have less than perfect treble. Otherwise, that may be the "top-tier" IEM. But, among this crop, are there some that have less weaknesses than the others? Maybe yes, maybe no. Does the GR-8 belong in the top? Not enough data (sorry Spyro, I believe you, but want some other opinions), at least that I know about.

Part of this is for selfish reasons. I have an e-Q7 on the way, and hopefully I will get it this week. But maybe I should have purchases the GR-8? Maybe, someday this thread or one like it will help me with my future purchases. OK, I admit, I like having most of my IEMs and listening to their strengths, but would gladly trade them for 1 that does it all right. Is that the JH13? I am not sure and really, not so sure I want to spend that much to find out (yes, I could sell what I currently have and get that, but I am just not motivated to do so for some reason).

And how many people have heard the 3 I have in my top-tier? I have heard one of them and have talked with many I respect about those, which is why I put them there. But to my knowledge, those 3 have the least amount of negatives on the list (well, except maybe the GR-8) I may just remove the top-tier and near-top-tier until there is a better consensus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj nellie /img/forum/go_quote.gif I haven't heard the new 3, and it's possible that they are clearly a step above the others, but the chart could be a bit misleading to newcomers to this site who don't read the impressions threads for other IEMs that have been around much longer. I do appreciate the effort behind the chart, though. I agree with others who think that the chart would probably be most useful if it is mainly a summary of the basic qualities of the top 10-15 most highly-regarded IEMs, rather than an attempt to rank them or place them into tiers.

Thank you for your contribution and support. I am trying to provide a resource for people that have not heard a certain IEM to at least get an idea if it is a step up or not, a natural progression. If this can be done technically, it will not be misleading IMO. The hard part is determining where to draw a line.

And this may end up just being a summary chart, but I wanted something more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by semisight /img/forum/go_quote.gif I can agree with most of this. Especially when people aren't comparing apples to apples, like with triple driver BA phones and dynamic phones. I don't think any of the IEMs on the list have any readily apparent sound flaws (it's why they're there).

I think they ALL have flaws, some more apparent than others. For example, the UM3X flaw for me is soundstage size. For the IE8 is clarity. For the TF10 it's recessed mids (among other things). For the CK10 the bass is too lean for some (but not). Now, the e-Q7 and Copper/Gold have smaller flaws, which is why I put them at the top!

Quote:

FWIW, if the RE252 is up there the RE0 should be there as well. I haven't read a review yet where someone has said that the RE252 is a clear improvement on the RE0. In fact, most people chalk it up to preference.

I had both for a week and thought the RE252 was far superior due to a much larger space and better treble and bass. Speaking of the RE252, there doesn't seem to be much love, and I am wondering why. If not for the design (I still need to cut mine down), they would get more ear time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the search never ends /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is a thought provoking thread, and for the most part, civil as well, I want to thank Joe, for taking the time (and having the patience) to even connsider such a thread, while I doubt any consensus will be made, I honestly believe this thread will be very informative, allowing those that may be considering some of thes iem's. Like has been said, the fx 500, can shine, but not on enough music, in my opinion, none the less, many points made on it's sonic qualities, would at least in my mind, be very helpful to a perspective buyer. My new orto's (top tier or not) would never have been on my radar, were it not for headfi, again leading me to believe, no matter how the thread pans out, will serve as a useful tool in some decisions. Rock on JOE..... I will have to hook you up, for going through so much trouble.

As always, thanks for the support! And same here on the e-Q7. Spyro now put the seed of the GR-8 in my head...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeFFz /img/forum/go_quote.gif wow, guess this is the fastest growing thread? lol. anyway this thread is a compilation of different users' reviews. whether an iem is considered top-tier is based on the OP's thinking since this is his thread. So for those who wants to see their favorite iems to be placed as top-tier should post comments, opinions as why they are top-tier to convince the OP. This thread could be a reference for other people and true that each people have different opinions on IEM, but well just leave average_joe to manage his thread. Those who are bashing this thread can feel free to leave and make their OWN thread.

Here is what will really pursued me to change the chart:
- How said IEM compares to others on the chart from experience.
- More than one person saying so.

I want to put the CK10 and CK90Pro (after modding) in the top-tier, but am not because that is not the general consensus. I like them both and think they are technically excellent. Same with ER4P, but many have issues with the bass and it being too analytical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunlun /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'd like to add something to this discussion: The manufacturers themselves contribute to (and perhaps invent) the notion of a "top-tier" iem in their product lines, and I don't only mean via pricing, but in sound quality, wiring, accessories, etc. They are the ones who give us the notion, at least within their product line, that there is a progression along several dimensions leading to the one product which is at the top for that given company. Klipsch obvious means for the Image X10 to be it's top-tier iem as it's a lot higher not only in price but in quality over the S4. Same with Shure and the E530 etc etc etc. We can disagree and feel that the IE7 is better than the IE8, as some on the boards do, for example, but that's not how Sennheiser presents things. Because of this, I don't think trying to think about what are top-tier iems needs to be considered an artificial construct or a discussion that is doomed. Further, I would like offer my own defintion of a top-tier iem from a listener's perspective: A top-tier iem is one that has no major defects along any major dimension of sound quality and performs consistantly at a high level along all these dimensions. A top-tier iem needn't be the BEST at anything. Indeed, a hypothetical iem which was a close second place in everything would be amazing and worthy of being called top-tier. In fact, if we look at our top-tier list now, this is pretty much exactly what we see. The Ortofon isn't being reported as the best in anything (bass, mid, treble, soundstage, etc.) but people report that it does everything very well. The people that don't care for it acknowledge that it's very good but it's sound signature doesn't match their tastes. Something similar could be said of the MTPCs, they are very good across the board and even when another iem is better in some category (such as IE8 with soundstage), everyone is quick to say that the MTPCs are nonetheless not lacking. It has no flaws in sound quality and many things to commend it. The near-top-tier often have some issue that many people report, be it with a mid-bass hump that bleeds over into the mids (IE8), or rolled off treble and lacking in bass (SE530), etc. They are very good iems that many people love, but there is an issue or two that keep in the near-top-tier.

Well put, thank you! And I can't say I disagree at all (and stated some of the same things above).

Quote:

Anyway, that's how I'm making sense of this discussion. Now, I must get my 18-22 hours rest. Meow.

Funny, but what is rest

Quote:

Originally Posted by james444 /img/forum/go_quote.gif x2. In case that tier-attribute is necessary at all, I'd go along with your criteria. To my ears the e-Q7 are the undisputed masters of transparency. I'm pretty confident, that in a blind test with all my IEMs, I'd pick them out within seconds exactly for this one reason.

There you go Kunlun, the e-Q7 is best at transparency! I can't wait to get mine, I love transparency!

 

[the search never ends]

^^^^ Then get ready to love dem der orto's......only now, spyro's got the gr8 seed thing going on with me as well.

 

[james444]

^ No doubt that would be the ultimate icing on the cake, if someone had both the e-Q7 and GR8 to compare.

 

[the search never ends]

^^^ Please don't bait me, I am an easy target

 

[iponderous]

Relatively few people own the three top tier IEMs listed, compared to five IEMs that I see in the near top tier grouping that would be owned by many more. Surely this discrepancy and FOTM syndrome is skewing the chart from inaccurate to downright misleading.

I'm not trying to "thread crap" as another Head-Fier so delicately put it, but you really do have to question the accuracy and consequently, the usefulness of this exercise. The intention behind it is well meaning of course, but the execution is fundamentally flawed in my opinion.

 

[the search never ends]

Being one of the agreed "relatively few that does" and may pull the trigger on the gr8's.I fail to see what owning them means. I have loaned out iem's often to friends, and have had many ask me to listen to theirs for feedback, so I'm not sure ownersgip is required.
I understand your viewpoint, I'm sure many share it with you, I'm left wondering why you bother to visit the thread......and, @ iponderous, I truly just wonder why, please don't take my post as an attack, it's not meant as one. Were I to share your view, I would not visit the thread.

EDIT.....according to a reviewer on amazon, The GR8's are not top tier, the weaknes? No case included....shucks

 

[james444]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iponderous /img/forum/go_quote.gif Relatively few people own the three top tier IEMs listed, compared to five IEMs that I see in the near top tier grouping that would be owned by many more. Surely this discrepancy and FOTM syndrome is skewing the chart from inaccurate to downright misleading.

x2, even though I hold my e-Q7s in highest esteem, I can't stop pondering (sic!) this aspect. Maybe it should take something like a cool-down period for new IEMs to achieve top-tier status. Just a thought...

Edit: @the search never ends, I believe you could substitute "owned" by "have heard", I don't feel that ownership was the point of his argument.

 

[iponderous]

Quote:

Originally Posted by the search never ends /img/forum/go_quote.gif Being one of the agreed "relatively few that does" and may pull the trigger on the gr8's.I fail to see what owning them means. I have loaned out iem's often to friends, and have had many ask me to listen to theirs for feedback, so I'm not sure ownersgip is required. I understand your viewpoint, I'm sure many share it with you, I'm left wondering why you bother to visit the thread......and, @ iponderous, I truly just wonder why, please don't take my post as an attack, it's not meant as one. Were I to share your view, I would not visit the thread. EDIT.....according to a reviewer on amazon, The GR8's are not top tier, the weaknes? No case included....shucks

I'm at a loss to understand why you would focus on my use of the word "own". I assume that most of us have purchased and consequently, own or have owned the IEMs that we use/used. It doesn't seem like a particularly erroneous assumption to make to me.

I'm not sure if you do understand my viewpoint or motive for visiting this thread but I'll tell you, I have a problem with flawed methodology and its consequences, and I'm expressing it in a forum thread that I think is perpetuating it.

 

[Spyro]

GR-8 versus Orotron: Pianist listened to the GR-8 for a few minutes. While perhaps not long enough for a decent comparison he did say they were VERY close to one another. I believe the only real difference was that the e-q7 treble extended a pinch further. That's pretty revealing and I wonder if my ears could take it. I find GR-8 as revealing as the ER4 already but smoother. Hard to describe.

There was another comparison I saw on another website. I will try to find it later today. The guy said the are 85-90% similar to each other. For what it's worth the e-q7 comments I read pretty much mirror what I would say about the GR8. As we know the GR8 is a bit less expensive and would appear to be an easier fit. But no case and no international shipping (?) is a big turnoff to many.

 

[HONEYBOY]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iponderous /img/forum/go_quote.gif Relatively few people own the three top tier IEMs listed, compared to five IEMs that I see in the near top tier grouping that would be owned by many more. Surely this discrepancy and FOTM syndrome is skewing the chart from inaccurate to downright misleading. I'm not trying to "thread crap" as another Head-Fier so delicately put it, but you really do have to question the accuracy and consequently, the usefulness of this exercise. The intention behind it is well meaning of course, but the execution is fundamentally flawed in my opinion.

I think this is a good point. For instance, I do not recall seeing complaints about the mid bass hump of the IE8 nor the W3 for that matter when they were just released and owned by a few members; such complaints were sporadic at best.