[BassDigger]

 

   they are a lot indeed !
 
Seriously ... the title is very misleading. Very superficial. 
I challenge everyone to demonstrate that Berkeley Audio Reference dac and Bricasti M1, to name two, suck. And they use delta-sigma dac chip.
I listened to the second and it was amazing.  
I could live with both. 
Regards,  gino 

 
It's all relative (and relevant

); multi-bit fans, like myself, would argue that those (all) dacs would surely sound (even) better if they were designed as r2r, rather than D-S implementations.
But of course, most, if not all, companies operate as a business first, and d-s offers greater profit margins; they can get....?? 50-90% of the SQ for ??...20% of the price, and then tell us it's better and put the product price up. It's just another form of 'selling out'.

 

[ginetto61]

Have a look at the Geek Out V2 or Geek Out V2+ from LH Labs. It can currently be pre-ordered from their website.
According to those who have heard the V2, they are very detailed without the typical "Sabre" glare. I think they are only $229 for now.

 
Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable suggestion.
Actually i am in the process of evaluate some dacs now that i bought recently
I am quite ok on the amp and headphone side so i can perceive the differences.
However I have given up a little to the idea to get very good sound.  I am looking just for an honest sound.
I have thought to explore the solution of putting some tubes in the audio path ... like an hybrid headamp.
This would round and warm up the sound a little.
Thanks a lot again.  Kind regards, gino  

 

[nicolo]

   
Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable suggestion.
Actually i am in the process of evaluate some dacs now that i bought recently
I am quite ok on the amp and headphone side so i can perceive the differences.
However I have given up a little to the idea to get very good sound.  I am looking just for an honest sound.
I have thought to explore the solution of putting some tubes in the audio path ... like an hybrid headamp.
This would round and warm up the sound a little.
Thanks a lot again.  Kind regards, gino  

 
In that case, have a look at the Yulong A18 headphone amp. Sure it's a SS amp, but it has a very balanced, clean and resolving sound with an addictive tube-like tonality with sweet treble, excellent mid-range and tremendous bass slam and extension.

 

[juanitox]

i fail my life , i don't have a 4K TV, no Iwatch, and no R2R dac  ... my life sucks.. 

 
i love R2R dac ( i have a totaldac since few years and before a Audionote 3.1 kit)   but before the good ones i had bought bad ones  ( cheap TDA1543 dac card on the bay : no bass no treble muddy sound, and a surprising non musical R2R Metrum Octave  highly praised on 6moon) 

 

[wahsmoh]

My difficulty was finding sound without the smearing and digital glare.
 
I think smearing is what you get when you listen to most dynamic headphones.. transients get smeared and you lose instrument seperation and clarity. Smearing happens when you listen to a really busy music track and sounds start to get lost in the mix.
 
Planars do a better job at voiding smearing in general.. then your DAC will affect overall tone and imaging capabilities, treble glare being the notorious culprit of ruining a good digital audio experience.
 
I'm happy with my setup because I don't get my music smeared and it is like a clear window to the sound, albeit not as wide and open as the HD800 but accurate.

 

[snip3r77]

   they are a lot indeed !

Seriously ... the title is very misleading. Very superficial. 
I challenge everyone to demonstrate that Berkeley Audio Reference dac and Bricasti M1, to name two, suck. And they use delta-sigma dac chip.
I listened to the second and it was amazing.  
I could live with both. 
Regards,  gino 

I dont f understand why the title is not changed. it's a sweeping statement. i.e certain race is a ( insert bad attributes here )

 

[BassDigger]

  My difficulty was finding sound without the smearing and digital glare.
 
I think smearing is what you get when you listen to most dynamic headphones.. transients get smeared and you lose instrument seperation and clarity. Smearing happens when you listen to a really busy music track and sounds start to get lost in the mix.
 
Planars do a better job at voiding smearing in general.. then your DAC will affect overall tone and imaging capabilities, treble glare being the notorious culprit of ruining a good digital audio experience.
 
I'm happy with my setup because I don't get my music smeared and it is like a clear window to the sound, albeit not as wide and open as the HD800 but accurate.

 
I've noticed this with my set-up too, particularly since I've got my lcd2f.
 
When there are just a few instruments/vocals spaced around, the accuracy is pin-point and exceptionally well positioned; I can place everything in a precise position, in and around my head; it's very holographic.
But when the track starts to get busy; when the main accompaniment kicks in, the overall sound turns into something that's more like a 'wash' of noise; all the separation just disappears.
 
I'm hoping that the main cause of this is my (current) under-powered amp, and that purchasing a Gustard H10 will be the fix. Fingers crossed; if it's my dac, then I'm gonna be doing a whole lot of head scratching. 

 

[ginetto61]

   
It's all relevant; multi-bit fans, like myself, would argue that those (all) dacs would surely sound (even) better if they were designed as r2r, rather than D-S implementations.
But of course, most, if not all, companies operate as a business first, and d-s offers greater profit margins; they can get....?? 50-90% of the SQ for ??...20% of the price, and then tell us it's better and put the product price up. It's just another form of 'selling out'.

Hi and i get your point.
But then i am very very confused.  The designers of the above mentioned dacs they have shown their exceptional competence.  They know digital very well.
They must be extremely picky on each and every part of their creations.  And they would select an inferior dac chip, one if not the most important piece of the puzzle ???
In one case, Counterpoint, a replacement of the original multibit chip with a more recent delta-sigma is sold, expensively, as an upgrade.
But you are not the first to swear for multibits ... there must be something very true behind this choice.
I just hope that the new TOTL dac from Schitt will show the way to all other to follow.
When i read that the multibits are too expensive parts i really cannot stop laughing.
What difference makes 100 USD for a chip on a 5-6 kUSD unit ??? and moreover for a unit that claims to provide top performance.
I hope truly that Schiit people can demonstrate that very top and sublime sound can be had for how much ?  3000 USD ? 
This unit will bring some "sanity" to an insane market. I have seen dacs for 10 times that price ... unbelievable.
I am starting putting money away ... for me the dac is the most important piece of the puzzle (because it is indeed a puzzle).
Thanks a lot again,  gino

 

[BassDigger]

  Hi and i get your point.
But then i am very very confused.  The designers of the above mentioned dacs they have shown their exceptional competence.  They know digital very well.
They must be extremely picky on each and every part of their creations.  And they would select an inferior dac chip, one if not the most important piece of the puzzle ???
In one case, Counterpoint, a replacement of the original multibit chip with a more recent delta-sigma is sold, expensively, as an upgrade.
But you are not the first to swear for multibits ... there must be something very true behind this choice.
I just hope that the new TOTL dac from Schitt will show the way to all other to follow.
When i read that the multibits are too expensive parts i really cannot stop laughing.
What difference makes 100 USD for a chip on a 5-6 kUSD unit ??? and moreover for a unit that claims to provide top performance.
I hope truly that Schiit people can demonstrate that very top and sublime sound can be had for how much ?  3000 USD ? 
This unit will bring some "sanity" to an insane market. I have seen dacs for 10 times that price ... unbelievable.
I am starting putting money away ... for me the dac is the most important piece of the puzzle (because it is indeed a puzzle).
Thanks a lot again,  gino

 
Most industries are full of examples of designers apparently shooting themselves in the foot, just for the sake of a cheaper part.
I think that the key is in the huge profit margins that (most) companies operate with; the cost of the parts and labour rarely gets anywhere near what the public are charged for the finished product!
So in that context, spending 100-300% more, for just one part, and then having to spend even more because that part is more difficult to implement properly, is going to (and has) become the exception.
Only calling something for what it is, rather than accepting the hype, is going to change anything.

 

[ginetto61]

  In that case, have a look at the Yulong A18 headphone amp. Sure it's a SS amp, but it has a very balanced, clean and resolving sound
with an addictive tube-like tonality with sweet treble, excellent mid-range and tremendous bass slam and extension.

 
Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable reply.
At 900 USD the competition is tough ... there is also the KSA5 clone that is tremendously tempting ...
However i have still a thing to try ... actually i am trying it now.
Playing the cables trick to get the midrange more fleshed and smoothed out using a pair of Cardas cables known for doing this to the signal.
I have now what i think is a decent amp (SAC, designed specifically for the AKG k1000).
I have also some nice tracks for testing.   I am close to a decent sound. Very close.
I am scared but tubes ... but also insanely attracted by them.
I do not like the bass from tubes ... but from the midrange up can be absolutely fantastic.
Personally i believe very much in hybrid amps ... where you can have all the needed (not that is that much) voltage gain in the tube and then a solid state buffer like a diamond buffer for instance.  That would be my top choice.
I stop the ramblings.   Thanks a lot again, gino

 

[ginetto61]

  Most industries are full of examples of designers apparently shooting themselves in the foot, just for the sake of a cheaper part.
I think that the key is in the huge profit margins that (most) companies operate with; the cost of the parts and labour rarely gets anywhere near what the public are charged for the finished product!
So in that context, spending 100-300% more, for just one part, and then having to spend even more because that part is more difficult to implement properly, is going to (and has) become the exception.
Only calling something for what it is, rather than accepting the hype, is going to change anything.

 
Hi thanks for the valuable advice.  I do not know the market and i am not an expert of digital electronics.
But we are not talking of mass market units.   We are talking of units that are like cars from Aston Martin, Ferrari ... units aimed to be the best in their class !
For me it is mindblowing to think that they skip on the most important chip. Really.
And i would like to listen the opinion of the best absolute delta-sigma dac on this issue of multibits vs. delta-sigma.   Maybe i would be still confused after that.
But i have decided to wait and see before my next move.
I could stretch the budget for a very definitive unit.
2-3000 USD distributed in 10 years are in the end 2-300 USD per year ... i can pay that easily.
But i would like to see the end of the story with this dac from Schiit.
What i am finding very very strange is that no main magazine have reviewed it yet ... TAS, Stereophile, 6moons ... what they are waiting ???
I cannot remember a model more awaited ... i tend to believe to the hype anyway
so i am damn curious
Thanks again,  gino

 

[BassDigger]

Sorry; I forgot to mention:
 
That $2-3000 product, would usually only be made of probably less than $200 worth of parts. So, spending significantly more on just one of those parts would really make a difference to costs.

   
Hi thanks for the valuable advice.  I do not know the market and i am not an expert of digital electronics.
But we are not talking of mass market units.   We are talking of units that are like cars from Aston Martin, Ferrari ... units aimed to be the best in their class !
For me it is mindblowing to think that they skip on the most important chip. Really.
And i would like to listen the opinion of the best absolute delta-sigma dac on this issue of multibits vs. delta-sigma.   Maybe i would be still confused after that.
But i have decided to wait and see before my next move.
I could stretch the budget for a very definitive unit.
2-3000 USD distributed in 10 years are in the end 2-300 USD per year ... i can pay that easily.
But i would like to see the end of the story with this dac from Schiit.
What i am finding very very strange is that no main magazine have reviewed it yet ... TAS, Stereophile, 6moons ... what they are waiting ???
I cannot remember a model more awaited ... i tend to believe to the hype anyway
so i am damn curious
Thanks again,  gino

 
Sorry; I forgot to mention:
 
That $2-3000 hifi product, would usually only be made of probably less than $200 worth of parts. (The Yggy (and Schiit in general) seems to be a rare exception). So, spending significantly more on just one of those parts would really make a difference to costs. They don't need to do this when with clever engineering, they can get it to perform 'well enough', and the hype and marketing will do the rest.
 
Perhaps automobile manufacturers aren't the best example; I believe that their profit margins are pretty tight.

 

[ginetto61]

  Sorry; I forgot to mention:
That $2-3000 product, would usually only be made of probably less than $200 worth of parts. So, spending significantly more on just one of those parts would really make a difference to costs.
Sorry; I forgot to mention:
That $2-3000 hifi product, would usually only be made of probably less than $200 worth of parts. (The Yggy (and Schiit in general) seems to be a rare exception).
So, spending significantly more on just one of those parts would really make a difference to costs.
They don't need to do this when with clever engineering, they can get it to perform 'well enough', and the hype and marketing will do the rest.
Perhaps automobile manufacturers aren't the best example; I believe that their profit margins are pretty tight.

 
Hi and thanks again. I see better now.
But still in Schiit they have selected a very special part ... a chip used in extremely expensive medical equipment i read.
Even at Analog Devices they sad that that part for a dac is too much (then we can discuss how much is too much)
I think people want just a new edition of the pcm63, 1704 chips ...  are they so expensive to make again ? with all the advancement in technology ???
However ... thanks a lot again for your kind and very helpful explanation.
I love dacs ... like i love usb to spdif converters when done right.
The pc is nowadays the only source of my AV enjoyment ... so i am willing to make some sacrifice to find a nice working solution.
I will keep on reading
Thanks a lot again.  Best regards,  gino

 

[juanitox]

 I think people want just a new edition of the pcm63, 1704 chips ...  are they so expensive to make again ? with all the advancement in technology ???

 
 
people like what it"s unobtainable right now ,  it is the same for Solid-state amplifier and VFet hype on diy audio or  Western electric old triode ( 300B, 101D, 417A etc..) for Tube maniac      don't forget that men are just like child exept the price of their toys 

 

[Baldr]

OK, as the co-founder of Schiit and the architect of Schiit Digital Gear Policy, let me confirm that the prior mentioned shirt exists, and indeed I wore it at the last Can Jam.  Yes it harsh and irreverent, but what do you expect from me?  At the same Can Jam, I also explained that those who bought into our upgradable products would be eventually be rewarded.  So don't get rid of them.  All good things come to those who wait.  My Dad used to say that.
 
My real position on delta sigma is that it is cheap compared to multibit.  Any moron with marginal reading skills could design one.  You do not need expensive R&D.  That said, we could not build $100-$150 multibit DACs without delta sigma parts.  We build those DACs because few others seem interested in building low cost, low margin gear.  Our Modis and ubers kick ass at that level.  I have built dozens of them for my own companies and other companies as a consultant as well over the last thirty years or so.  So this qualifies me at a minimum as a very experienced moron, and a whore as well. 
 
So my future is multibit - it is not easy, requires R&D chops, particularly if you don't want to stoop to the level of Parks-McClellan non imaging buyable filter chips, which boring as they are, are still an improvement over the complete dogschiit delta sigma filters,either with or without extra filters of dubious value.  We've got the original megaburrito filter, inhouse designed, which is the only time and frequency domain optimized one which retains all of the original samples.  That is where the uncanny imaging exclusive to us comes from in the Yggy.  Just as it took years to figure out the original Theta stuff, it has taken years again to update to 2015 available parts, NOT the few remaining PCM1704s.
 
To repeat, in the arena of multi thousand dollar gear, delta sigma is cheap to buy, cheap to design, cheap period.  The technology is progressive, ubiquitous, and insipid.  Anyone who incorporates delta sigma in a such a design is selling multi thousand dollar sneakers with gold threaded shoelaces.
 
Eventually, we will filter this tech down to the level of all Schiit upgradable DACs.  Any and all current owners of these DACs have been helping this design effort and will be offered reduced price upgrades... when we get there.  I am personally grateful to each and every Gungnir and Bifrost owner who has trusted and partnered with me so far on this journey.