[vwinter]

Hold on eke, I think it's important to highlight that we spend our time writing reviews and impressions in order to help out fellow enthusiasts.  We do it freely, of our own accord, as part of our participation in the hobby... not because we were commissioned by - or in any way asked to - by Head-Fi... not because it was in any way required of us... and certainly not "all for their benefit."  Does Head-Fi indirectly directly benefit from having this content?  Sure.  Is that why we do it?  No.  So let's not try to pretend that we are unwitting sources of labor here.  We are not.

Lets be honest with ourselves here in the bolded section. I fixed it for you.

You're not wrong about everything else. But you're speaking for everyone and I don't think you can accurately assess everyone's understanding of the underlying economics of the situation.

There is every right for economic opportunity and gain. I think the real issue that's being raised is regarding the method at which it's sustained here regarding freedom of speech.

 

[eke2k6]

   
Hold on eke, I think it's important to highlight that we spend our time writing reviews and impressions in order to help out fellow enthusiasts.  We do it freely, of our own accord, as part of our participation in the hobby... not because we were commissioned by - or in any way asked to - by Head-Fi... not because it was in any way required of us... and certainly not "all for their benefit."  Does Head-Fi indirectly benefit from having this content?  Sure.  Is that why we do it?  No.  So let's not try to pretend that we are unwitting sources of labor here.  We are not.

 
Don't take this as a stab at yourself. I've known you since I've been on the site, seeing that you joined not long before me. Your enthusiasm for the hobby is unmistakable, and I appreciate it.
 
But you'd be mistaken if you didn't smell the stink of the sponsorship driven agenda here. Nothing is wrong with reaping the benefits of a situation, but when you start to cull discussions that don't suit the agenda of a supposedly "open" forum for music lovers, then there's a problem. 
 
The fact is that the financial side of audio hobby simply doesn't follow the rules of the free market, because "quality" here is such a subjective issue. How can you create rules that are supposedly for the benefit of the community, then turn around and let others flaunt those rules because they pay you? Is that not what people everywhere else would call corruption? 
 
If the original content of the users here generates the traffic that keeps the lights on, why do they have any less speaking power than sponsors? There's one especially annoying sponsor here that sticks his head into any thread that even mentions a single letter in his company name. Wut?

 

[eke2k6]

On the other hand, I love what this site represents for the audio community. I love the people I've met through it.
 
I just think the way it's being run within the last couple of years is not exactly in the best interest of the users of the site. 
 
RE: the moderators not getting financial compensation, what Mod here doesn't receive TOTL gear for review or to keep for as long as they like? Not to talk of actual review sets that aren't to be returned.
 
 
I'd post the contents of the silly PM Jude just sent me, but I'd rather keep my tongue.

 

[jude]

  ...I'd post the contents of the silly PM Jude just sent me, but I'd rather keep my tongue.

 
I'll do it for you then, Eke, including the quoted post of yours I was responding to.
 

---

 

   
 
You have to remember that this place is more or less a farm, and we are the animals. Look at the front page...it's user reviews there mostly. The site admins get paid for the traffic our content generates, as well as the sponsorship. We pay for products, spend our time writing these reviews, all for their benefit. Hell, look at how much traffic Joker's thread alone generates. The worst part is that we can't even openly post our views, no matter how founded in fact or logic they are. 
 
GL with your campaign. I really enjoy your videos.

 
 
So, from this, I've gleaned the following:
 

1. Like a farm animal, you're being held here against your will.
2. Your position is that your posts and reviews only benefit me, yet you keep making them. That is, you personally derive nothing positive from the experience.
3. You would rather we did not feature user content on the homepage.
4. Head-Fi is completely unique among gear forums on the web, in that it is the only one that generates revenue from advertising and that contains opinions and reviews from the people who post there.

 
If you feel you're being held here against your will, I want to reassure you that you are not. And if you really feel that way, you should at least take a hiatus, because then you've penned yourself in--I certainly didn't do it.
 
If your reviews only benefit me--and you gain absolutely nothing from writing and posting them--then I strongly suggest you reconsider doing it. That is, if posting here is a net-negative in your life, I strongly suggest you not do it.
 
The moderators here are not paid to moderate. (However, Joe is a long-time employee of one of my companies.)
 

 The worst part is that we can't even openly post our views, no matter how founded in fact or logic they are. 

 
Fact: you're not being held here against your will
 
Logic: if posting here doesn't benefit you at all--if it makes you feel like a farm animal--don't do it.
 

---

 
So that's my PM'd response to you that you found "silly." Perhaps sometimes a response to the absurd ends up being silly.

 

[jude]

And for what it's worth, this was about self-crowdfunding campaigns being posted on Head-Fi (as a component of another discussion/topic), and I stand by my position on it, which I discussed in a PM recently:
 

That such a self-crowdfunding campaign is run through a crowdfunding site doesn't make it any different to me than if someone posted a thread in the forums to say, "I'm a reviewer, please send me money to buy gear to review, and possibly even to cover some of my living expenses. You can PayPal me at paypal@acme.com," which is a type of thread neither I nor any of the other moderators here would allow. Using a crowdfunding site doesn't make it any different than that.
 
To be clear, I have no problem if you or anyone else wants to raise money for gear, living expenses, tuition, etc.--this just isn't the place it's going to happen. You have your channel, you have your website, and those would certainly be more appropriate places to ask for direct monetary support for you, your channel, and/or your living expenses.

 

[eke2k6]

   
I'll do it for you then, Eke, including the quoted post of yours I was responding to.
 

---

 
 
 
So, from this, I've gleaned the following:
 

1. Like a farm animal, you're being held here against your will.
2. Your position is that your posts and reviews only benefit me, yet you keep making them. That is, you personally derive nothing positive from the experience.
3. You would rather we did not feature user content on the homepage.
4. Head-Fi is completely unique among gear forums on the web, in that it is the only one that generates revenue from advertising and that contains opinions and reviews from the people who post there.

 
If you feel you're being held here against your will, I want to reassure you that you are not. And if you really feel that way, you should at least take a hiatus, because then you've penned yourself in--I certainly didn't do it.
 
If your reviews only benefit me--and you gain absolutely nothing from writing and posting them--then I strongly suggest you reconsider doing it. That is, if posting here is a net-negative in your life, I strongly suggest you not do it.
 
The moderators here are not paid to moderate. (However, Joe is a long-time employee of one of my companies.)
 
 
Fact: you're not being held here against your will
 
Logic: if posting here doesn't benefit you at all--if it makes you feel like a farm animal--don't do it.

 
 
Fine. Since taking arguments out of context is your forte, let me spell out my post for you. Explanations are in blue.
 
 

   
 
You have to remember that this place is more or less a farm, and we are the animals. 
 
 

 
 
Cows naturally produce milk for the benefit of their own. Likewise, we naturally want to talk about products we love, or products we think are absolute crap.
 
 
 

  The site admins get paid for the traffic our content generates, as well as the sponsorship. 
 

 
 
And at its core, nothing is wrong with this. The farmer provides shelter and food, so why can't he be able to sell some milk in order to keep the operation going. Likewise, Head-Fi is more or less our grazing field.
 
 
 

  The worst part is that we can't even openly post our views, no matter how founded in fact or logic they are. 
 
 

 
There is a very Matrix-esque feel to HF. We are all plugged into a cyclic system where we still get to interact on the surface, but we are batteries that keep things going. What makes things worse is that any idea that comes up that may be outside the established paradigm of the site is pigeon-holed into the Sound Science forum or rejected totally.
 
I remember when I commented in the AK240 Impressions thread a few months back. Rudi claimed that the optical output of the AK240 was far superior to that of the AK120 and other DAPs. I, in my capacity as a Cisco Certified Network Analyst (really associate, but analyst sounds sexier), stated that optical is simply digital bits in the form of light. There is no real processing involved, so there can be no differences. I know this because optical cables are often used in the wiring of backbone networks. A few others echoed my statement, but within minutes the post was gone and I was banned from the thread. This same Rudi comments that different types of memory cards improve sound quality. Any person with rudimentary tech knowledge would find a statement like that laughable, but his statements are protected from being challenged because "we all hear differently."
 
This is the environment that is cultured here. Buy without properly questioning.
 
Jude himself did a video on the AK240, heralding it as probably the best sounding DAP on the market, competing with the HM901 for absolute top dog status. I sat down myself with the HM901, and found that it was no better than my lowly iphone 4 in any capacity...and I've been closely scrutinizing gear for 5 years now.
 
But wait, I didn't use hi-res files. That must be it. Nevermind that no hi-res file contains more usable info than a 256 AAC file, or that close to nobody has been able to blindly differentiate between those files and a 320 kbps MP3.
 
Head-Fi...don't ask too many questions.
 
I hope my post didn't break any of the Terms of Service.

 

[Idsynchrono_24]

  There is a very Matrix-esque feel to HF. We are all plugged into a cyclic system where we still get to interact on the surface, but we are batteries that keep things going. What makes things worse is that any idea that comes up that may be outside the established paradigm of the site is pigeon-holed into the Sound Science forum or rejected totally.
 
I remember when I commented in the AK240 Impressions thread a few months back. Rudi claimed that the optical output of the AK240 was far superior to that of the AK120 and other DAPs. I, in my capacity as a Cisco Certified Network Analyst (really associate, but analyst sounds sexier), stated that optical is simply digital bits in the form of light. There is no real processing involved, so there can be no differences. I know this because optical cables are often used in the wiring of backbone networks. A few others echoed my statement, but within minutes the post was gone and I was banned from the thread. This same Rudi comments that different types of memory cards improve sound quality. Any person with rudimentary tech knowledge would find a statement like that laughable, but his statements are protected from being challenged because "we all hear differently."
 
This is the environment that is cultured here. Buy without properly questioning.
 
Jude himself did a video on the AK240, heralding it as probably the best sounding DAP on the market, competing with the HM901 for absolute top dog status. I sat down myself with the HM901, and found that it was no better than my lowly iphone 4 in any capacity...and I've been closely scrutinizing gear for 5 years now.
 
But wait, I didn't use hi-res files. That must be it. Nevermind that no hi-res file contains more usable info than a 256 AAC file, or that close to nobody has been able to blindly differentiate between those files and a 320 kbps MP3.
 
Head-Fi...don't ask too many questions.
 
I hope my post didn't break any of the Terms of Service.

Heh, I had a Matrix related post slated to go before I wandered off and you beat me to the punch - 
 
"Lach just unplugged himself from the Matrix yo. While the rest of us are in our happy little confined existence at the mercy of Agent Smiths."
 
Your comment on the nature of gains in optical/memory card/batteries that are posited on some threads make me roll my eyes every damn time. Lach posed some very thoughtful points, and he was a fine member; I'm sorry to see him go. Other than that, I got no dog in this fight. I've just been here over the years so I can interact with some of you fine folks. And if **** goes down, I already know how to contact you all. That is all 

 

[billybob_jcv]

This is not directed at anyone in particular - just at the topic itself.

"Freedom of speech" and "private Internet forum" do not belong together. Never have, never will. Jude is right - no one is chaining anyone to their keyboards. Anyone that wants to say whatever they want is perfectly free to start their own Wordpress site and go wild. Jude is free to edit anything and everything in any way shape or form that he desires. If we like the site and the editor, we stay. If we don't, we go elsewhere. That's how it works on every private forum site in the universe. Even an unmoderated site has made a choice - they have chosen to be unmoderated - and the users of such a site either live with the consequences, or find a different forum to haunt. It is exactly when a user begins believing that they have some sort of "rights" or that the site management is "censoring" that these little eruptions take place. Some forum users feel they have more "rights" because the posts they make are the content of the site, and the forum owners make money from advertisers. But that is a completely erroneous stance. If you truly believe your words are what bring-in the advertising dollars, then you absolutely should have your own site. Why would you not? Why are you giving your pearls of wisdom away for free? For the "community"? Or, is it, perhaps, for yourself? Does writing give you pleasure? Does it pump your ego? Or - is it being *read* that actually gives you the pleasure? That would certainly explain why posting on head-fi is preferred over posting on your own site. If you want or need the audience, then that's your choice - but it's certainly not a right.

I could rant on, but I'll stop here...

 

[Saraguie]

These guys who complain about Head-fi are really a riot. With no disrespect to the owners, this place is not a charity. It is not a socialist or communist community or some kind of human rights forum. B U Y E R ~ B E W A R E  For me, I respect many people who post here regularly. Do I think everything they say is as if coming from G-d or an unimpeachable deity, NO.  You don't like it here, then go away.
 
I read, ask questions, and form my own opinions.  Recently I jumped at a new product because of someone I respect mentioning it when it was first introduced at a show and at the time I wanted retail therapy. It was a big error, at $1000+ error as it did nothing to improve my setup. Do I blame the person who announced the new product with enthusiasm and repeated some marketing language put out by the manufacturer...NO.  I did not do my homework or I would have figured out in short order that this piece of gear was not for me.
 
I've said it before, this is a hobby. It is not life or death. People want to take on good causes there are many........good audio......$1,000 pieces of equipment being better or worse than one another  is not the same as ending world hunger, civil rights, etc.  Go find a good cause that will make a difference to humanity.
 
To the moderators if this post is out of line, I apologize and feel free to delete......

 

[vwinter]

This is not directed at anyone in particular - just at the topic itself.

"Freedom of speech" and "private Internet forum" do not belong together. Never have, never will. Jude is right - no one is chaining anyone to their keyboards. Anyone that wants to say whatever they want is perfectly free to start their own Wordpress site and go wild. Jude is free to edit anything and everything in any way shape or form that he desires. If we like the site and the editor, we stay. If we don't, we go elsewhere. That's how it works on every private forum site in the universe. Even an unmoderated site has made a choice - they have chosen to be unmoderated - and the users of such a site either live with the consequences, or find a different forum to haunt. It is exactly when a user begins believing that they have some sort of "rights" or that the site management is "censoring" that these little eruptions take place. Some forum users feel they have more "rights" because the posts they make are the content of the site, and the forum owners make money from advertisers. But that is a completely erroneous stance. If you truly believe your words are what bring-in the advertising dollars, then you absolutely should have your own site. Why would you not? Why are you giving your pearls of wisdom away for free? For the "community"? Or, is it, perhaps, for yourself? Does writing give you pleasure? Does it pump your ego? Or - is it being *read* that actually gives you the pleasure? That would certainly explain why posting on head-fi is preferred over posting on your own site. If you want or need the audience, then that's your choice - but it's certainly not a right.

I could rant on, but I'll stop here...

I kinda knew someone would run with that.

Three points:

1. Not a private Internet forum IMO. While posting content requires a "membership", which requires nothing more than an email address, viewing is fully and totally public as far as I know, and ad revenue is produced from those hits.

This IMO makes it no different than a public park built and run by the government which sells ads in the park. Except now the government has incentive to keep that ad cash flow coming in.

Draw the curtains on the content to members only and I agree with every word you said.

2. This also makes it unlike moderating a private site, where you provide the content and can moderate the comments on your content to your hearts desire. Two totally different paradigms.

3. And this is the problem that results: moderation without transparency, especially in that it can be partially enforced to sustain or grow the cash flows of model, can produce a potential bias leading to misinformation, now on a public scale, to which many would not be the wiser.

I have no personal stake in this. I know and accept the system I'm here under. But to assume that everyone does or that it's inherently right "because capitalism" is a bit flawed.

You're arguing what's just and I'm arguing what's right. We're not even talking about the same thing.

But in regard to one other point, I feel like it's short sighted in being limited to "content" and that of one person at that. One person leaves, doesn't affect anything. Everyone leaves, goodbye cash flow, goodbye head-fi. It's a symbiotic relationship.

 

[gelocks]

So... I'm sorry but this topic is kind of boring and unnecessary... lol

I think that we all need MUPPETFACE!!!!!

 

[DigitalFreak]

I'm just hoping Lachlan changes his mind and comes back

 

[Coq de Combat]

  Just want to say, I'm probably going to be taking my leave.
 
Thanks to all you guys for the good times and the good discussions! I've had a lot of fun here in the diary thread. It's actually one of the few opportunities I have had to have articulate and intelligent discussions with people from many different background and different outlooks on life. A big shout out to all you guys and gals (even the ones who are no longer with us). Good times.
 
For various reasons I do not believe I can contribute to this forum anymore.
 
If you want to talk to me, well you know where to find me.
 
I wish you all the best!

Well, seeing as it's you who's doing this, I am assuming that you've given this a fair bit of thought and came to the conclusion that would benefit you the most. It's saddening for me, because head-fi was always our only channel to contact eachother, however, such is life.
 
Anyway, take care my friend, and keep doing what you love -- and perhaps, eventually, when you have the lust, please come to visit us at something awful. We even have a headphone thread, although, keanex is the one running it. Anyway, you're welcome and yeah, take care and "We'll always have Paris...". 

 
I just hope thatr this isn't the beginning of a massdrop of diary members, especially seeing as some already have left this thread and some already have been gone forever. 

 

[billybob_jcv]

I kinda knew someone would run with that.

Three points:

1. Not a private Internet forum IMO. While posting content requires a "membership", which requires nothing more than an email address, viewing is fully and totally public as far as I know, and ad revenue is produced from those hits.

This IMO makes it no different than a public park built and run by the government which sells ads in the park. Except now the government has incentive to keep that ad cash flow coming in.

Draw the curtains on the content to members only and I agree with every word you said.

2. This also makes it unlike moderating a private site, where you provide the content and can moderate the comments on your content to your hearts desire. Two totally different paradigms.

3. And this is the problem that results: moderation without transparency, especially in that it can be partially enforced to sustain or grow the cash flows of model, can produce a potential bias leading to misinformation, now on a public scale, to which many would not be the wiser.

I have no personal stake in this. I know and accept the system I'm here under. But to assume that everyone does or that it's inherently right "because capitalism" is a bit flawed.

You're arguing what's just and I'm arguing what's right. We're not even talking about the same thing.

But in regard to one other point, I feel like it's short sighted in being limited to "content" and that of one person at that. One person leaves, doesn't affect anything. Everyone leaves, goodbye cash flow, goodbye head-fi. It's a symbiotic relationship.

1. No, no, no. Please go look up the definition of "freedom of speech". If you do, you will find that it applies ONLY to the government's censoring of a citizens comments. It has nothing to do with what medium is used or where the speech takes place. A privately-run newspaper or magazine has the right to edit or refuse to print any letter to the editor sent to the newspaper. A privately-run internet forum is no different. "Private" & "public" have nothing to do with who can view the content. It has everything to do with who owns the forum. Last time I checked, Jude is not an elected official or civil servant, and head-fi is not part of any government agency. That makes it "private", not "public".

2. See my #1.

3. Jude can moderate any way he wishes. It's his cash flow at risk. Jude has no responsibility to ensure the readers of head-fi are aware of his sources of income. It has absolutely nothing to do with right or wrong. I'm tired of people believing that someone else should look out for them and "protect" the ignorant. I say we each have a much greater obligation to eliminate ignorance and protect ourselves. Evolution in action. Jude has done nothing "wrong" - he is running this business in the way he believes will maximize benefit to the business. That is his ethical responsibility to his investors, his sponsors and his employees. We are free to make whatever evaluations of the way he runs this site that we wish - just don't expect Jude to pay for the server space for you to criticize him or his sponsors. You are allowed to stand on the city-owned sidewalk in front of a business and hold a picket sign. But you aren't allowed to nail that picket sign to the front door of the business.

 

[Magick Man]

You have to remember that this place is more or less a farm, and we are the animals. Look at the front page...it's user reviews there mostly. The site admins get paid for the traffic our content generates, as well as the sponsorship. We pay for products, spend our time writing these reviews, all for their benefit. Hell, look at how much traffic Joker's thread alone generates. The worst part is that we can't even openly post our views, no matter how founded in fact or logic they are. 

GL with your campaign. I really enjoy your videos.

You don't receive free stuff from manufacturers to review, which you then often sell (on ebay and the like)? Free stuff is great, even I get it every once in a while, then, because the companies are nice enough to send things, I make sure to write my impressions about it, which then generates talk about the product. Since that talk happens on Head-Fi, it generates pageviews, which in turn helps Jude make money to keep the site running (ad revenues). If the free stuff isn't enough, then start a Youtube channel or similar, build a subscriber base, and find a way to further monetize the content you want to create. The fact that Jude and Co provide a site that allows you to have what is essentially a self-funding hobby as potentially expensive as personal audio, is pretty awesome, really. What is there to complain about?




*(However, I don't sell gear because I'm a packrat and like to keep it for reference sake.)