[acidtripwow]

Interesting review, I am looking at getting a Sugden within the next month or so. And maybe an R10, too.

 

[Flumpus]

Interesting... so the HD600s need crossfeed to sound their best, but once you use the crossfeed, you gotta add a brightness filter? And what's the difference between doing this and applying an EQ to make up for your headphone's/amp's flaws?

Quote:

I guess it could be your headphones (the R10s) -- try it with your others.

Ya, ok... Am I the only one that finds this strange? He has headphones that are widely considered to be the best dynamic headphones ever made, and he's auditioned countless others, with tons of different amps, and he's supposed to try something that's not as good? Maybe for the sake of the review, for what normal people listen on (sorry Vert, you're not normal), but maybe his R10s are telling us what the crossfeed really sounds like? Maybe its not the headphone's fault (probably isn't), but the crossfeed, and the HD600s just don't allow you to hear everything the way it should be heard. Just my opinion of course, I suspect all the HD600/Headroom fanboys will come to their equipment's defense

 

[ai0tron]

Hey I haven't heard either of these amps but just want to offer some opinions.

First off, what's wrong with customer loyalty??? Don't be such a **** man. There's nothing wrong with people preffering and recommending headroom based on their experiences with ONLY headroom. Headroom is a good company, a little pricey, but a good company, I think they deserve most of the respect they get around here.

It's not like the Sugden is really a flat our bargain anyways.

Secondly, I think the idea of locking jacks is kind of pointless, maybe even stupid. I mean, it's just asking to have something ripped off a shelf and smashed to pieces. Or if you've got a big amp, it's just asking to have your headphones ripped off your head and smashed to pieces.

Just some contrarian opinions for you all to stew over.

 

[jude]

No, Flumpus, I think you're simply reading too much into this for some dramatic flair. I have AKG K-240Studio heapdhones my wife just purchased for me, and they sound horrible with my Max crossfeed on (and quite good with the crossfeed off). Yet my Etymotic ER-4S and HD-600s sound phenomenal with crossfeed on. Does this mean I should speak in such absolutes and say that the HD-600s and ER-4S are worse than the AKG? Or better? To me, my HD-600s sound better out of my Airhead than my JMT-built CHA47. The AKGs and V6s sound better out of the CHA47. Again, does that mean that one of the amps is better than the other? Or maybe it's situational, and some headphones work better with different amps?

"....but maybe his R10s are telling us what the crossfeed really sounds like?"

Yeah, who said that that's not what's happening? Maybe it's saying what the crossfeed sounds like through the R10s.

And what's a fanboy? Read the posts. You quote my post -- read it again. It's simply someone saying that he hears no reverb with the crossfeed. Then a few others follow up and say the same thing. I think it's you who sees it as a little more Westside Story than it is.



Quote:

Originally posted by Flumpus Interesting... so the HD600s need crossfeed to sound their best, but once you use the crossfeed, you gotta add a brightness filter? And what's the difference between doing this and applying an EQ to make up for your headphone's/amp's flaws? Ya, ok... Am I the only one that finds this strange? He has headphones that are widely considered to be the best dynamic headphones ever made, and he's auditioned countless others, with tons of different amps, and he's supposed to try something that's not as good? Maybe for the sake of the review, for what normal people listen on (sorry Vert, you're not normal), but maybe his R10s are telling us what the crossfeed really sounds like? Maybe its not the headphone's fault (probably isn't), but the crossfeed, and the HD600s just don't allow you to hear everything the way it should be heard. Just my opinion of course, I suspect all the HD600/Headroom fanboys will come to their equipment's defense

 

[Flumpus]

Well, if the Sugden is that much better than the MOH, then its probably better than the Max (almost the same parts as the MOHR anyway), then it IS a bargain in my mind, at about half the price. This is all assuming it is better than the Max of course, haven't heard the sugden yet so I'm just commenting on the stuff in this thread

 

[acidtripwow]

Hey Vert, do you still have an HP1 or 2? I was wondering because I will most likely be using my HP2 with the Sugden if I buy one.

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by Flumpus He has headphones that are widely considered to be the best dynamic headphones ever made

You know, a few months ago I would have believed (and did believe) that statement. But the more I read about them, the more of a skeptic I am -- I'm beginning more and more to think that the R10 are the best headphone in the world for the people who own them, and that the reason they own them is that they're the best headphone in the world for them,. In other words, just like any other headphone, the people who like them, own them -- and I'm sure the fact that people paid $2500-$4000 for them has a bit to do with their impression

That said, I'd really love to hear a pair of these (and, yes, if I believed they were the best I'd ever heard, I'd say so

).

Quote:

I think it's you who sees it as a little more Westside Story than it is.

LOL


Quote:

Originally posted by Flumpus Well, if the Sugden is that much better than the MOH, then its probably better than the Max

Remember, this is a sample size of one -- I wouldn't call it "that much better" than a Corda or TA based on one review

But dang, I would like to hear it

 

[Flumpus]

Jude, you can sit there and say that I'm just trying to add a little drama to my life all you want, but you didn't respond to my main points.

First, what's the difference between EQ'ing a headphone to make up for its flaws and doing the Crossfeed/"Brightness Filter" (a fancy word for EQ)? All you're doing IMO, based on Vert's and countless other VERY positive reviews of the R10, is making up for its flaws.

Quote:

Yeah, who said that that's not what's happening? Maybe it's saying what the crossfeed sounds like through the R10s.

No, I'm saying the R10s are telling us what Headroom's crossfeed sounds like, period. The R10s are allowing the listener to hear more than the HD600s are. That's why it works so great on the HD600s, they're not truly transparent.

And ya, I'm waiting for the fanboys that claim HD600s and Headroom amps are better than anything. There are people like that here. There are people that refuse to accept that anything is better. I never said you were one, I just quoted you to make a point that its ridiculous (other than for the sake of benefitting a normal listener, who only had HD600s) to listen to the crossfeed with a less transparent headphone, when you have the best dynamic headphone available at your disposal.

 

[Flumpus]

MacDEF, you quoted me out of context... right after I said that about it being better than the Max, I said this:

Quote:

This is all assuming it is better than the Max of course, haven't heard the sugden yet so I'm just commenting on the stuff in this thread

 

[jude]

There you go again.

"....when you have the best dynamic headphone available at your disposal."

This is not a law, but you present it as such. I've not heard the R10s, but even if I did think they were the best dynamic headphone available after hearing them, who's to say that they are "the best dynamic headphone"? Again, it's like you're not comfortable without breaking it down to absolutes.

And regarding your comment about the R10s being more transparent than the HD-600s. Again, you present this as a universal truth. Some might think differently. I can't speak from experience because I've not heard the R10s. What about the Etymotic ER-4S? Those are about as revealing as any transducers I've heard, particularly with the ~30dB of isolation from outside noise. And they still sound great with crossfeed. Maybe the R10s are more transparent than the HD-600s, I have no idea. But in this case, I'm inclined to believe that, like my new AKGs, maybe the crossfeed just doesn't sit well with R10s (I can't say for sure, as, again, I've not heard the R10s). You speak very authoritatively about the R10s -- how much listening time through them have you had?

Regarding your question about the EQ. Who disagreed that the brightness switch is a form of equalization? But to state that it's to cover flaws of the crossfeed -- heck, I listen most of the time with the brightness switch in the off position. Some might say not having crossfeed is the biggest flaw of headphone listening. Again, it all comes down to opinions.

Flumpus, you obviously are not a fan of HeadRoom products in terms of value for the money. And that's fine, man. I don't have a problem with that. There are many experienced audio enthusiasts that would agree with you, and obviously many who would not.


Quote:

Originally posted by Flumpus Jude, you can sit there and say that I'm just trying to add a little drama to my life all you want, but you didn't respond to my main points. First, what's the difference between EQ'ing a headphone to make up for its flaws and doing the Crossfeed/"Brightness Filter" (a fancy word for EQ)? All you're doing IMO, based on Vert's and countless other VERY positive reviews of the R10, is making up for its flaws. No, I'm saying the R10s are telling us what Headroom's crossfeed sounds like, period. The R10s are allowing the listener to hear more than the HD600s are. That's why it works so great on the HD600s, they're not truly transparent. And ya, I'm waiting for the fanboys that claim HD600s and Headroom amps are better than anything. There are people like that here. There are people that refuse to accept that anything is better. I never said you were one, I just quoted you to make a point that its ridiculous (other than for the sake of benefitting a normal listener, who only had HD600s) to listen to the crossfeed with a less transparent headphone, when you have the best dynamic headphone available at your disposal.

 

[ai0tron]

Quote:

Originally posted by Flumpus And ya, I'm waiting for the fanboys that claim HD600s and Headroom amps are better than anything. There are people like that here. There are people that refuse to accept that anything is better.

And yet no one has proven beyond a doubt that this sint true.

 

[DarkAngel]

Flumpus makes a good point:
I hate the fact that I need to use a 3 position brightness filter to compensate for effect of crossfeed. But the crossfeed module itself is already changing the original signal, so the "stigma" of not having signal purity is already broken.

Unfortunately headphones are so defficient in their ability to replicate 3D space compared to good stereo that drastic measures are required. MOHR that has been "compromised" by resorting to crossfeed/brightness filter is still more 3D sounding than any other headphone amp I have heard, so the added complications are a necessary evil. I wish a standard headphone amp could sound this 3D without manipulating signal.

BTW in my main stereo I use no EQ or tone controls (other than cable matching)

 

[ai0tron]

By the way, why does vertigo still care about this stuff, I thought he hda the A44L's that were better than anything else out there??

BYe the way darkangel, there is Binaural which IMO sounds very 3D.

 

[Flumpus]

No, I haven't heard the R10s. I'm just making logical conclusions from things posted here in this thread, and I've said that a few times. Do you have any doubt that the R10s are more transparent than the HD600s? They're probably more transparent than the etys, but I don't know that for sure.

 

[DeanA]

Quote:

Originally posted by Flumpus I'm waiting for the fanboys that claim HD600s and Headroom amps are better than anything. There are people like that here. There are people that refuse to accept that anything is better.

Well, I'm one of those who feel the MOH and HD600 make a nice combination. But I would never claim the combination is better than anything because I have not tried everything else. Does that make me a "fanboy"? Hell if I know, since I don't have a clue what a "fanboy" is, though it doesn't sound good. BTW, I also like the MOH and SR325 combination, but in this case the brightness is off. I'm guessing this makes me something else that doesn't sound good.