[BenKatz]

  I see. 
 
everyone i know questions the overall sound quality coming out of the XZ. everyone touts the HTC10 as the best sounding smartphone. have you ever compared these two? I want an XZ but I heard that the sound quality hasn't changed much since the z3 which was known as the best in 2014

Well does everyone you know have an XZ? I doubt it. I have one. I also had a z5 and z3. The sound quality as well as power has increased incrementally from the Z3 to the XZ. The HTC10, I don't know. I did test the HTC M9 though. In short, it sounded louder, it definitely lets more power through the headphone jack. But it sounder a bit more congested and with a noticeably less separation. It's as if the music was coming from somewhere in front, through a door, as opposed as from a wider stage, like on the XZ.
 
The thing I've found out about people, especially those who haven't tested a lot of high end audio equipment throughout the years, is that they conflate VOLUME with QUALITY. The average Joe will say that DAP A is "better" than DAP B because it sounds louder, without taking the time to analyze if the sound is more refined, pronounced, if the soundstage is wider, etc.
 
Even Sony's president, I remember when they launched the Z5 (Or X Performance) said that they are always working to improve the sound in the Xperia line, and to make it sound "better, not louder", hinting at this confusion that everyone makes. Generally ****ty equipment tends to tuned to sound louder in order to hide the flaws in quality, and this really works on the average Joe. Think BEATS, their headphones are extremely easy to drive. I plugged in a Beats Studio in my Z5 a while back, and it sounded much louder than my MDR 1A headphones. So at first glance, someone woul get the Beats over the Sonys hands down. However upon listening critically for a few minutes, you'd realize the Beats sound really bad. 
 
I'm not putting HTC in the same shoes as Beats, mind you. HTC makes stellar phones, overall. I'm just saying the HTC sounds louder, and that's all. As far as quality, well, think, who makes better audio equipment, HTC or Sony? Also, consider that the XZ has DSEEHX+ (the 1000x has that technology built in as well), which upscales mp3 to near 24 bit FLAC quality, and it also features an internal high res amp in order to reproduce a fuller frequency range, which the HTC (and almost any other phone, if i'm not mistaken, except maybe the new LG G6) doesn't. 

 

[BenKatz]

Michael Jackson - Thriller
Queen - Various
Norah Jones - Various
Adele - 25

Those are my DSD tracks so far. None classical. All sound amazing. I carry them on my phone or my DAP.

Encore mDSD, same chip as the DFB, handles 32/384 and DSD, and retails for less than $100. Street price is lower. Power draw is higher than DFR. Amp is most likely weaker than DFR.

Any other questions?

The problem is that Bose ties in the ANC to the power, so if you want to have ANC on when you listen, you have to trigger the amp.

 
C'mon man, you can't cmpae the Encore mDSD with the new Dragonfly Red. Just read ANY review about them. Plus, not everyone listens to well known commercial hits all the time. I listen to Techno and Deep House music mostly, like many others. No DSDs there. Plus, DSDs are useless unless you use really good expensive headphones. I'm not saying you don't use some, but all in all, unless you listen only to DSD files and can't settle for 24 bit FLACS, the Dragonfly is way better. It even makes your 24 bit flacs sound better than the DSD on lower end DACs. Don't forget, it's not the file that ultimately dictates the sound quality, it's the way the dac works, what DAC it is, and how the device amps the sound. The Dragonfly is stellar in this regard. 

 

[BenKatz]

I use the Sony Experia XZ phone with my 1000x headphones. I specifically bought this phone to use LDAC with the headphones. The LDAC works great, the phone just detects an LDAC receiver in the phones and switches to LDAC automatically. The only problem I have is the signal strength is not great and can sometimes drop out even when I have the phone in my pocket or bag. The drop out is worse if I use the high quality setting for LDAC transmission from the phone, its less of a problem if I select "best effort".

I also have a pair of Sony EX750bt in ear phones which are also LDAC capable and these too suffer from the same transmission break,up.
Maybe it's a problem with my phone?
Or maybe it's the dropout caused by the LDAC bandwidth?

Either way, with both headphones and LDAC the sound quality is a significant step up from regular Bluetooth from an iPhone.

 
I have the same issue with the XZ (and i didn't have it with the Z5 over LDAC). Funny enough, I pointed the issue out to a support specialist on the sony support forums, and they notified the engineers saying that this isn't normal. I was told this issue (LDAC BT stability) will be addressed in a future software update. I, however, use the 1000X mostly wired now. That's because it sound fuller and better (obviously). Just don't forget to tick the DSEEHX option ON in the Sound settings on the XZ, and the Audio Optimization under Accessory Settings DEFINTELY OFF. 
 
In case many people don't know, the 1000X (just like the MDR 1A), come with stellar oxygen free copper high end cables. The cables don't do a huge difference by any mean, but they're stellar quality. I recently went over to sony's parts replacement site to check out details about the cable that came in with the 1000X, and found out it costs 80 USD (!!!!), and that's not exactly retail price, but rather "part replacement" price. Really nice move on Sony. Many AT, Sennheiser, AKG, etc headphones don't come with really nice high end cables out of the box. 

 

[Roen]

C'mon man, you can't cmpae the Encore mDSD with the new Dragonfly Red. Just read ANY review about them. Plus, not everyone listens to well known commercial hits all the time. I listen to Techno and Deep House music mostly, like many others. No DSDs there. Plus, DSDs are useless unless you use really good expensive headphones. I'm not saying you don't use some, but all in all, unless you listen only to DSD files and can't settle for 24 bit FLACS, the Dragonfly is way better. It even makes your 24 bit flacs sound better than the DSD. Don't forget, it's not the file that ultimately dictates the sound quality, it's the way the dac works, what DAC it is, and how the device amps the sound. The Dragonfly is stellar in this regard. 

I read the reviews between them, and that's why I chose the Encore. They have different sound signatures, but one is not necessarily better than the other. I can find the same number of reviews that go one way or the other. It's clear that the DFR is not a slam dunk better than the mDSD.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/797668/review-encore-mdsd-dac-amp-a-new-pocket-rocket-to-make-you-hum#post_12324063

"I've had a decent audition with the Audioquest Dragonfly mk1 and mk2. Sonically (and from memory) I would say the mk2 barely edges out the mDSD with a warmer and more “lush” tone, but it is almost twice the price and doesn't have the optical output."

http://www.head-fi.org/t/805832/new-dragonfly-black-and-red-discussion/75#post_12558068

And of course, someone keeping a black over a red because it didn't justify the price difference. Now I'm sure there are many positive reviews about the Red too, but it's not a slam dunk by any means.

What is objectively worse is the power draw and the amp current (if you need that power, I don't). What is objectively better is the format support (which I use). The DFB/R could easily have supported more formats, but they prioritized power draw over format support. I would much rather increase my personal DAC's music ability, rather than save some juice on the road. Others may differ. Once again, just illustrating that it's not a slam dunk one way or the other and that other cheaper options exist in the DFR-type DACs, if one is has slightly different needs. What is objective is that I don't think there's a DAC better than the DFR, for the amount of power it draws.

DSD masters are generally better than the PCM masters. Not saying it's due to the format used to record them, but there does seem to be a high correlation in better masters being linked to DSD. Just try comparing any DSD version to a 24/192 or higher version. A test where DSD creams PCM (but not due to the technical differences between them) is comparing the DSD version of Thriller on a mDSD and the 24/96 version of Thriller on a DFR. It's not even fair, the DSD version will sound a lot better. Generally the DSD versions are equivalent, if not better. I have never ran into one where it's worse.

I listen to 24/192 and DSD. I like having the option to do both with my "expensive" IEMs (not really though, they're just 4 BA + 1 DD IEMs that reveal a ton of detail). I don't believe for a second the DFR will make it sound better, just different. You may like the DFR, but that doesn't mean it smashes any competition (especially at the price it sells at). The DFR is twice the price of the mDSD. Does it punch at twice the weight? I doubt it. The DFR is just a 9018, while the mDSD / DFB are 9010. They're one gen apart, and while the 9018 is better reviewed, it's not by much. No way there's that much difference between a 9018 and a 9010. I have a 9023 as well, which is the gen before the 9010. The difference between those two is not earth shattering either.

Anyway, this is a tangent that belongs in the DF / mDSD threads so I'll stop here.

 

[BenKatz]

I read the reviews between them, and that's why I chose the Encore. They have different sound signatures, but one is not necessarily better than the other. I can find the same number of reviews that go one way or the other. It's clear that the DFR is not a slam dunk better than the mDSD.



http://www.head-fi.org/t/797668/review-encore-mdsd-dac-amp-a-new-pocket-rocket-to-make-you-hum#post_12324063



"I've had a decent audition with the Audioquest Dragonfly mk1 and mk2. Sonically (and from memory) I would say the mk2 barely edges out the mDSD with a warmer and more “lush” tone, but it is almost twice the price and doesn't have the optical output."



http://www.head-fi.org/t/805832/new-dragonfly-black-and-red-discussion/75#post_12558068



And of course, someone keeping a black over a red because it didn't justify the price difference. Now I'm sure there are many positive reviews about the Red too, but it's not a slam dunk by any means.



What is objectively worse is the power draw and the amp current (if you need that power, I don't). What is objectively better is the format support (which I use). The DFB/R could easily have supported more formats, but they prioritized power draw over format support. I would much rather increase my personal DAC's music ability, rather than save some juice on the road. Others may differ. Once again, just illustrating that it's not a slam dunk one way or the other and that other cheaper options exist in the DFR-type DACs, if one is has slightly different needs. What is objective is that I don't think there's a DAC better than the DFR, for the amount of power it draws.



DSD masters are generally better than the PCM masters. Not saying it's due to the format used to record them, but there does seem to be a high correlation in better masters being linked to DSD. Just try comparing any DSD version to a 24/192 or higher version. A test where DSD creams PCM (but not due to the technical differences between them) is comparing the DSD version of Thriller on a mDSD and the 24/96 version of Thriller on a DFR. It's not even fair, the DSD version will sound a lot better. Generally the DSD versions are equivalent, if not better. I have never ran into one where it's worse.



I listen to 24/192 and DSD. I like having the option to do both with my "expensive" IEMs (not really though, they're just 4 BA + 1 DD IEMs that reveal a ton of detail). I don't believe for a second the DFR will make it sound better, just different. You may like the DFR, but that doesn't mean it smashes any competition (especially at the price it sells at). The DFR is twice the price of the mDSD. Does it punch at twice the weight? I doubt it. The DFR is just a 9018, while the mDSD / DFB are 9010. They're one gen apart, and while the 9018 is better reviewed, it's not by much. No way there's that much difference between a 9018 and a 9010. I have a 9023 as well, which is the gen before the 9010. The difference between those two is not earth shattering either.



Anyway, this is a tangent that belongs in the DF / mDSD threads so I'll stop here.

 


I only saw comprisons between the mDSD and the old Dragonfly. The Dragonfly RED came out later as an improvement. I usually check out What Hi FI's reviews, as they are professonal and non biased. I'm not saying in any way the mDSD isn't good, I heard it's really good. I just think, based on professional reviews, that the RED could be better.

 

[aertus]

  Well does everyone you know have an XZ? I doubt it. I have one. I also had a z5 and z3. The sound quality as well as power has increased incrementally from the Z3 to the XZ. The HTC10, I don't know. I did test the HTC M9 though. In short, it sounded louder, it definitely lets more power through the headphone jack. But it sounder a bit more congested and with a noticeably less separation. It's as if the music was coming from somewhere in front, through a door, as opposed as from a wider stage, like on the XZ.
 
The thing I've found out about people, especially those who haven't tested a lot of high end audio equipment throughout the years, is that they conflate VOLUME with QUALITY. The average Joe will say that DAP A is "better" than DAP B because it sounds louder, without taking the time to analyze if the sound is more refined, pronounced, if the soundstage is wider, etc.
 
Even Sony's president, I remember when they launched the Z5 (Or X Performance) said that they are always working to improve the sound in the Xperia line, and to make it sound "better, not louder", hinting at this confusion that everyone makes. Generally ****ty equipment tends to tuned to sound louder in order to hide the flaws in quality, and this really works on the average Joe. Think BEATS, their headphones are extremely easy to drive. I plugged in a Beats Studio in my Z5 a while back, and it sounded much louder than my MDR 1A headphones. So at first glance, someone woul get the Beats over the Sonys hands down. However upon listening critically for a few minutes, you'd realize the Beats sound really bad. 
 
I'm not putting HTC in the same shoes as Beats, mind you. HTC makes stellar phones, overall. I'm just saying the HTC sounds louder, and that's all. As far as quality, well, think, who makes better audio equipment, HTC or Sony? Also, consider that the XZ has DSEEHX+ (the 1000x has that technology built in as well), which upscales mp3 to near 24 bit FLAC quality, and it also features an internal high res amp in order to reproduce a fuller frequency range, which the HTC (and almost any other phone, if i'm not mistaken, except maybe the new LG G6) doesn't. 

i agree with everything you said. however, i thnk its important that Sony adresses volume output because I think for good sound quality you definitely good sound quality but also loudness which is a common complain. For me its not cuz I use sony earphones that came with it and it seems to be fine. But for people it can't even drive proper headphones they say. Although i think I've heard that this has changed with the Nougat update and now its plenty loud. Then there is also the lack of the external dac and amp which the htc10 does people say xz uses integrated dac and not a dedicated one. 
 
overall I love my z3 and the sound quality from it. especially love the music app its a good replacement for my zune. 

 

[BenKatz]

  i agree with everything you said. however, i thnk its important that Sony adresses volume output because I think for good sound quality you definitely good sound quality but also loudness which is a common complain. For me its not cuz I use sony earphones that came with it and it seems to be fine. But for people it can't even drive proper headphones they say. Although i think I've heard that this has changed with the Nougat update and now its plenty loud. Then there is also the lack of the external dac and amp which the htc10 does people say xz uses integrated dac and not a dedicated one. 
 
overall I love my z3 and the sound quality from it. especially love the music app its a good replacement for my zune. 

The HTC 10 uses the same dac/amp as the Sony XZ and many othr android phones. It's the one buit into the Snapdragon chip, and it's quite good. The difference is the software, whch plays a big part in DACs. Sony XZ has a limited output for safety, they only allow the maximum universally allowed as agreed upon by ear doctors (i forgot the db number). As of now, the XZ has the same output as an S7, which my friend has and i can test, and the same the IP7 produces trough the jack dongle it came with. The only smartphone i know of that has a dedicated DAC is the LG G6, which might sound quite good. 
 
The XZ should please everybody. They can perfectly run the MDR 1A to above needed volume output (i cant keep it constantly at 100%) or the MDR 1000X powered on wired (even louder than the MDR 1A). But they offer that killer soundstage and mp3 upscaling to high res. 
 
Volume output won't be addressed, I'm quite sure of it. As much as people hated on Apple for dropping the jack (prematurely, indeed), this is the future. In max 2 generations all important flagships (sony, htc, lg, samsung) won't have a headpone jack. Maybe some of you didn't hear, but Sony has been the number one contributor with Android O (the next version after Nougat). Among many improvements, they came to an agreement to licence the LDAC codec. Basically Android O (Oreo?) will include LDAC support for all brands. Now it will be up to Sony (and other brands IF sony decides to licence out the LDAC codec, though i think not, the headpone market is a battleground and sony should stick to their guns) to constantly improve the dac/amps found in their headphones for better fidelity (they did an absolute stellar job ith the 1000X).  The alternative will be smaller but excellent high end usb DACs (like the Dragonfly RED) for audiophile listening, since it will never be feasible for a manufacturer to put a high end dac/amp in a smartphone. It will make it bulkier, but more importantly, much more expensive (The dragonfly RED is basically a USB dongle that has a dac/amp inside, it costs about 200 usd, so you figure out how much an integrated one will raise the price of a smartphone without sacrificing on camera/performance/etc).

 

[aertus]

  The HTC 10 uses the same dac/amp as the Sony XZ and many othr android phones. It's the one buit into the Snapdragon chip, and it's quite good. The difference is the software, whch plays a big part in DACs. Sony XZ has a limited output for safety, they only allow the maximum universally allowed as agreed upon by ear doctors (i forgot the db number). As of now, the XZ has the same output as an S7, which my friend has and i can test, and the same the IP7 produces trough the jack dongle it came with. The only smartphone i know of that has a dedicated DAC is the LG G6, which might sound quite good. 
 
The XZ should please everybody. They can perfectly run the MDR 1A to above needed volume output (i cant keep it constantly at 100%) or the MDR 1000X powered on wired (even louder than the MDR 1A). But they offer that killer soundstage and mp3 upscaling to high res. 
 
Volume output won't be addressed, I'm quite sure of it. As much as people hated on Apple for dropping the jack (prematurely, indeed), this is the future. In max 2 generations all important flagships (sony, htc, lg, samsung) won't have a headpone jack. Maybe some of you didn't hear, but Sony has been the number one contributor with Android O (the next version after Nougat). Among many improvements, they came to an agreement to licence the LDAC codec. Basically Android O (Oreo?) will include LDAC support for all brands. Now it will be up to Sony (and other brands IF sony decides to licence out the LDAC codec, though i think not, the headpone market is a battleground and sony should stick to their guns) to constantly improve the dac/amps found in their headphones for better fidelity (they did an absolute stellar job ith the 1000X).  The alternative will be smaller but excellent high end usb DACs (like the Dragonfly RED) for audiophile listening, since it will never be feasible for a manufacturer to put a high end dac/amp in a smartphone. It will make it bulkier, but more importantly, much more expensive (The dragonfly RED is basically a USB dongle that has a dac/amp inside, it costs about 200 usd, so you figure out how much an integrated one will raise the price of a smartphone without sacrificing on camera/performance/etc).

actually the hTc10 doesnt use the one that comes with snapdragon, it uses a dedicated dac and amp seperate. 
 
I don't like sony giving in their trade secrets because it makes people less willing to buy sony products. They are giving too much way they need more exclusivity if anything. 

 

[RojasTKD]

  The HTC 10 uses the same dac/amp as the Sony XZ and many othr android phones. It's the one buit into the Snapdragon chip, and it's quite good. The difference is the software, whch plays a big part in DACs. Sony XZ has a limited output for safety, they only allow the maximum universally allowed as agreed upon by ear doctors (i forgot the db number). As of now, the XZ has the same output as an S7, which my friend has and i can test, and the same the IP7 produces trough the jack dongle it came with. The only smartphone i know of that has a dedicated DAC is the LG G6, which might sound quite good. 
 
The XZ should please everybody. They can perfectly run the MDR 1A to above needed volume output (i cant keep it constantly at 100%) or the MDR 1000X powered on wired (even louder than the MDR 1A). But they offer that killer soundstage and mp3 upscaling to high res. 
 
Volume output won't be addressed, I'm quite sure of it. As much as people hated on Apple for dropping the jack (prematurely, indeed), this is the future. In max 2 generations all important flagships (sony, htc, lg, samsung) won't have a headpone jack. Maybe some of you didn't hear, but Sony has been the number one contributor with Android O (the next version after Nougat). Among many improvements, they came to an agreement to licence the LDAC codec. Basically Android O (Oreo?) will include LDAC support for all brands. Now it will be up to Sony (and other brands IF sony decides to licence out the LDAC codec, though i think not, the headpone market is a battleground and sony should stick to their guns) to constantly improve the dac/amps found in their headphones for better fidelity (they did an absolute stellar job ith the 1000X).  The alternative will be smaller but excellent high end usb DACs (like the Dragonfly RED) for audiophile listening, since it will never be feasible for a manufacturer to put a high end dac/amp in a smartphone. It will make it bulkier, but more importantly, much more expensive (The dragonfly RED is basically a USB dongle that has a dac/amp inside, it costs about 200 usd, so you figure out how much an integrated one will raise the price of a smartphone without sacrificing on camera/performance/etc).

 
Nope!
 

  actually the hTc10 doesnt use the one that comes with snapdragon, it uses a dedicated dac and amp seperate. 
 
I don't like sony giving in their trade secrets because it makes people less willing to buy sony products. They are giving too much way they need more exclusivity if anything. 

Agreed!
 
Via Android Central (the is emphasis theirs):
                                 "The HTC 10 uses a stand-alone DAC as well as headphone amp and isn't using the Snapdragon 820 DAC. This is pretty important, and why the HTC 10 sounds as good as it does."
 
Full article:
http://www.androidcentral.com/htc-10-audio-testing-boomsound-evolved

 

[meringo]

   
Nope!
 
Agreed!
 
Via Android Central (the is emphasis theirs):
                                 "The HTC 10 uses a stand-alone DAC as well as headphone amp and isn't using the Snapdragon 820 DAC. This is pretty important, and why the HTC 10 sounds as good as it does."
 
Full article:
http://www.androidcentral.com/htc-10-audio-testing-boomsound-evolved

 
Oh no! I have to disagree with the both of yous! lol
 
The HTC uses a standalone Qualcomm Aqstic DAC:
https://www.qualcomm.com/news/snapdragon/2016/06/02/qualcomm-aqstic-sets-new-standard-audiophiles
 
With that being said, it were the same DAC as any of the Snapdragon 820/821 phones but separated from the CPU, unlike the other phones. Standalone variant. The HTC also has better amping, but that's beside the point.
 
I owned an HTC 10 and busted my ass off to a straight answer about it all lol I was on the phone with HTC, Qualcomm, and even have a theory that there was a misquote within the Android Central article, as that's the only place where the claim is made.

 

[Sonic Defender]

My 1000X is charging now. Used it wired for a few minutes to hear the drivers and thought what I heard was pretty nice. I actually think Sony is wise to license the LDAC codec. I suspect they realized that they couldn't get the traction driving people to a Sony ecosystem such as a phone or DAP with LDAC, so if you can't beat them, join them. Now Sony will have many new Android devices with customers who will perhaps want to use LDAC and have to buy a Sony headphone so maybe they don't get the sales boost throughout the Sony family, but headphones should see a bump. Anyway a few more hours and I will be able to test the 1000X. I don't think it will be beating out my recently sold P7 wireless for pure sound quality, but I fully expect the Sony to sound quite good.

 

[aertus]

   
Oh no! I have to disagree with the both of yous! lol
 
The HTC uses a standalone Qualcomm Aqstic DAC:
https://www.qualcomm.com/news/snapdragon/2016/06/02/qualcomm-aqstic-sets-new-standard-audiophiles
 
With that being said, it were the same DAC as any of the Snapdragon 820/821 phones but separated from the CPU, unlike the other phones. Standalone variant. The HTC also has better amping, but that's beside the point.
 
I owned an HTC 10 and busted my ass off to a straight answer about it all lol I was on the phone with HTC, Qualcomm, and even have a theory that there was a misquote within the Android Central article, as that's the only place where the claim is made.

hmm so is it a dedicated dac or what? standalone seems to mean thats the case im confused. Also it does have a dedicated amp no?  Its very possible android central misquoted and took out of context but idk. you might be right. 

 

[Sonic Defender]

  hmm so is it a dedicated dac or what? standalone seems to mean thats the case im confused. Also it does have a dedicated amp no?  Its very possible android central misquoted and took out of context but idk. you might be right. 

My understanding is that some basic audio path goes through the Qualacomm SoC, but the actual digital to analogue conversion will always happen in a separate DAC chip. This is what has been explained and demonstrated to me, but I am not an expert at all.

 

[Sonic Defender]

Okay, have to say, I really like what I'm hearing with the 1000X! For those who liked the P7, but may have found the bass a tad strong at times, the 1000X seems to have a little less quantity, but the bass seems fairly nice and fast/tight. Initial impressions are very favourable. Comfort is certainly a strong point; not forget they are on comfort, but certainly quite comfortable.

 

[Maddog510]

My 1000X is charging now. Used it wired for a few minutes to hear the drivers and thought what I heard was pretty nice. I actually think Sony is wise to license the LDAC codec. I suspect they realized that they couldn't get the traction driving people to a Sony ecosystem such as a phone or DAP with LDAC, so if you can't beat them, join them. Now Sony will have many new Android devices with customers who will perhaps want to use LDAC and have to buy a Sony headphone so maybe they don't get the sales boost throughout the Sony family, but headphones should see a bump. Anyway a few more hours and I will be able to test the 1000X. I don't think it will be beating out my recently sold P7 wireless for pure sound quality, but I fully expect the Sony to sound quite good.

I'll be looking very forward to the Android O update to hear how LDAC sounds with these & my LG V20!