[Alexnova]

As a HE-500 owner would I be downgrading if I bought a 650HD? I have the Schiit Lyr amp.

I've owned the 595, 590 and 280s before and do like the Senn sound signature a lot.

If I have to get the Bottlhead Crack amp then I'll just sell my 500 and Lyr together.

 

[ThurstonX]

As a HE-500 owner would I be downgrading if I bought a 650HD? I have the Schiit Lyr amp.

I've owned the 595, 590 and 280s before and do like the Senn sound signature a lot.

If I have to get the Bottlhead Crack amp then I'll just sell my 500 and Lyr together.

 
I've been asking this question over the last week or so, and the general consensus of the fine HD 650 owners in this thread is that they are a good/great complement to the HE-500.  Quite a different sound.  Others who have the Lyr or the Lyr+Bifrost combo also rave about the 650s.
 
Are you thinking of adding them or replacing the HE-500 with them?  For me, it's the former.  My only question at this point - and I can guess at the answers herein - is whether to get the HD 650s and wait on the Bifrost, or get the Bifrost and wait on the 650s.  I do have a decent little DAC (see sig), and obviously new cans with a different sound sig will offer more options than a DAC upgrade (I'm sure I'll hear a difference between the Bifrost and Sabre U2).  Add in tube rolling fun, and I think I've just answered my question.  That said, I'm open to opinions.

 

[olegausany]

  I have not tried any of  the E80cc tubes yet what does it bring to the party?

Mullard E80cc and GEC 6AS7 gave me best sound on Crack from any pairings I have tried, still have some tubes for sale since I don't have Crack anymore and they no use with S.E.X.

 

[Alexnova]

I would be replacing them. The more I read about the sound signature of the 650s, the more I would like to own them.

Are they a "genre master"? Frankly I listen to a lot of pop/hip-hop and rock, but I need something with full bodied bass, impact and slam. For reasons I cannot explain, I have tried tube swapping and I am not getting the desired bass from my 500s. I don't think the cans are defective and I have tried changing my source.

If the 500s are a superior set of cans, even in measurements, then I will keep them. To be honest, the 500s have this strange "other side of the room sound" and sort of rolls off in the higher treble which makes continuous listening non-fatiguing. What I mean by that quote is I'm on one side of a room, yet the music appears distant on the other side. I know owners have made the same comments, like WhiteCrow.

But the 500s aren't exactly detailed to a fault nor are they analytical. Again this isn't a criticsm, but I know the Senns have a tendency to be a bit colder and more precise with detail. If the 650s are warmer, match that with precision, imaging and soundstage (which is technically impossible with headphones) then I would be happy to drop the cash.

Would it be better to spend that on a Bifrost Uber? From my reading the results seem marginal.

 

[olegausany]

I really enjoyed Bifrost Uber with Lyr, Crack and S.E.X. but after trying DacMagic Plus instead, it's on sale for just $499 till enough of the year, I prefer it over Bifrost

 

[pdrm360]

As a HE-500 owner would I be downgrading if I bought a 650HD? I have the Schiit Lyr amp.

I've owned the 595, 590 and 280s before and do like the Senn sound signature a lot.

If I have to get the Bottlhead Crack amp then I'll just sell my 500 and Lyr together.

 
IMO:
 
Sound quality: the HE-500 is 20% better than the HD650
 
Comfort: the HD650 is 600% better than the HE-500

 

[pdrm360]

I would be replacing them. The more I read about the sound signature of the 650s, the more I would like to own them.

Are they a "genre master"? Frankly I listen to a lot of pop/hip-hop and rock, but I need something with full bodied bass, impact and slam. For reasons I cannot explain, I have tried tube swapping and I am not getting the desired bass from my 500s. I don't think the cans are defective and I have tried changing my source.

If the 500s are a superior set of cans, even in measurements, then I will keep them. To be honest, the 500s have this strange "other side of the room sound" and sort of rolls off in the higher treble which makes continuous listening non-fatiguing. What I mean by that quote is I'm on one side of a room, yet the music appears distant on the other side. I know owners have made the same comments, like WhiteCrow.

But the 500s aren't exactly detailed to a fault nor are they analytical. Again this isn't a criticsm, but I know the Senns have a tendency to be a bit colder and more precise with detail. If the 650s are warmer, match that with precision, imaging and soundstage (which is technically impossible with headphones) then I would be happy to drop the cash.

Would it be better to spend that on a Bifrost Uber? From my reading the results seem marginal.

 
They are genre master but not quite perfect for classical music, IMO  

 

[80smusicboy]

Are you happy with your HD650 right now? Do you enjoy listening to your music with them?

If you answered yes don't worry about it! And if someday you have the spare cash buy a new set of drivers. But until then be happy and let the music play.

For most of the recordings, I'm very happy with them! On some others I'd prefer less bass, but from what I read, that remains true for lots of headfiers with the newer version. Maybe the difference is small

 

[Uchiya]

As a HE-500 owner would I be downgrading if I bought a 650HD? I have the Schiit Lyr amp.

I've owned the 595, 590 and 280s before and do like the Senn sound signature a lot.

If I have to get the Bottlhead Crack amp then I'll just sell my 500 and Lyr together.

 
You'll have to try them out.  The HE-500's well as the LCD-2's were not absolute upgrades.  They produce a good sound but the presentation just is really off to me.  I couldn't get into it.  I've tried the LCD-2's and HE-500's thrice each, with different setups and the HD600's and HD650's come out clear winners every time; they're not the best but they are very consistent in all areas.  To say, if the Senns were ranked 1-10 for their aspects, imo it'd be 7's or 8's all across the board.  LCD'2 and HE-500's would peak at 9 in some aspects, higher than the Senns but would land 5 or 6's in some areas like presentation.  You're just going to have to bite the dust and try them out, nature of the hobby I suppose.

 

[JamieMcC]

I need something with full bodied bass, impact and slam.

 
Wish you could hear "Battle without honor or humanity" or some Florence and the Machine "Ceremonials" via the hd650 Crack with rca cleartop and a 6as7 GEC brown base, its just plain slamming.

 

[Solarium]

I still have difficulty deciding between the Magni or Vali to pair with the HD650. The Magni worked perfectly with my HD598 which I will be returning because I will be using the HD650 exclusively and to save costs. I heard the Magni first with the HD650 then the Vali. The Vali definitely added some kind of wetness to the sound across the board, and possibly more warmth with a tighter and more prominent bass. Say the Magni is more neutral, would adding more warmth, bass, and decay from the Vali to the HD650'd already pronounced warmth, bass and decay be overkill?

 

[skeptic]

  I have not tried any of  the E80cc tubes yet what does it bring to the party?

 
Like 12bh7's, it isn't an exact analog of a 12au7.  As PJ explains it on bottlehead: "In the Crack circuit the E80CC will bias up at a higher voltage (mu is 27, vs. 17 for the 12AU7), changing the 6080 operating point as well. This will increase the cathode resistor or Speedball heat dissipation - I don't know by how much. It is NOT a direct replacement, even though it may work in many circuits designed for the 12AU7."  The higher mu is also going to translate into higher gain which may or may not be an issue for you depending on your source, attenuator an
whether or not you're comfortable padding your pot.  (see http://www.goldpt.com/mods.html)
 
Also FWIW, I agree with olegausany that the GEC 6as7g's are very nice, quiet tubes (with a cool internal structure), but the prices they go for these days are totally outrageous.  Skylab was a big proponent of this tube for a long time, but if you read the 6as7 thread, even he discourages buying them now due to the silly pricing.  I own one and after considerable A/B'ing, do not think it is any better from a sonic standpoint than the best of my cheap mil spec 6080's.  Moreover, for about 1/3 the cost of a GEC, you can get a nice 5998, 7236 or (if you're really lucky) 7802 - all of which actually lower the output impedance of crack, providing tighter bass.  The only people I've seen pushing GEC's as a "must have" tube, also happen to have purchased them in volume, at a discount, and will be happy to sell you a pair for the modest price of $400.  

 

[JamieMcC]

  
Like 12bh7's, it isn't an exact analog of a 12au7.  As PJ explains it on bottlehead: "In the Crack circuit the E80CC will bias up at a higher voltage (mu is 27, vs. 17 for the 12AU7), changing the 6080 operating point as well. This will increase the cathode resistor or Speedball heat dissipation - I don't know by how much. It is NOT a direct replacement, even though it may work in many circuits designed for the 12AU7."  The higher mu is also going to translate into higher gain which may or may not be an issue for you depending on your source, attenuator an
whether or not you're comfortable padding your pot.  (see http://www.goldpt.com/mods.html)
 
Also FWIW, I agree with olegausany that the GEC 6as7g's are very nice, quiet tubes (with a cool internal structure), but the prices they go for these days are totally outrageous.  Skylab was a big proponent of this tube for a long time, but if you read the 6as7 thread, even he discourages buying them now due to the silly pricing.  I own one and after considerable A/B'ing, do not think it is any better from a sonic standpoint than the best of my cheap mil spec 6080's.  Moreover, for about 1/3 the cost of a GEC, you can get a nice 5998, 7236 or (if you're really lucky) 7802 - all of which actually lower the output impedance of crack, providing tighter bass.  The only people I've seen pushing GEC's as a "must have" tube, also happen to have purchased them in volume, at a discount, and will be happy to sell you a pair for the modest price of $400.

 
Thanks for the feed back guys,
 
fwiw I find a definite progression in sound quality from the standard 6080 tubes through JAN-Chatham 6as7g - Tung-Sol 5998 to the GEC brown base, normally switching between them depending on how I wish to listen and what to.
 
Maybe this is more genre or HD 650 specific on the T1's this progression  is more noticeable.
 
 I think the 5998 does the most duty as it sound good with most things you through at it.
 
The JAN-Chatham 6as7g  is also a nice sounding tube if you like female vocals like Melody Gardot or Diana Krall I have it playing at the moment.
 
Still looking for a reasonable priced Bendix 6080wb with slotted plates to try.
 
re GEC 6as7g's I agree there are some up for silly money. However you really don't need to spend silly money for them.
 
They are often listed in Europe as A1834 or CV2523 rather than 6AS7Gs which I am guessing is really the US equivalent spec.
 
I managed to sniped this pair

used but tested as strong, straight brown bases one marked GEC one Osram  for $110 delivered earlier this year. They do come up but you need to be patient. I have seen several listed over the last month as A1834 or CV2523 some nos they normally go for around $75 which is about the same amount I paid for my tested nos 5998s from a dealer.
 
 
 

 
Considering for perhaps half the cost of a decent cable upgrade for the HD650 you could have all three tubes listed above which would give three different listening experiences, times this by how many different headphones you have and it can put a different perspective on it.

 

[K-Otar]

   
IMO:
 
Sound quality: the HE-500 is 20% better than the HD650
 
Comfort: the HD650 is 600% better than the HE-500

 
That's why I've kept my HD580. 

 

[skeptic]

 
I managed to sniped this pair

used but tested as strong, straight brown bases one marked GEC one Osram  for $110 delivered earlier this year. They do come up but you need to be patient. I have seen several listed over the last month as A1834 or CV2523 some nos they normally go for around $75 which is about the same amount I paid for my tested nos 5998s from a dealer.
 
...

 
Wow - you got quite a steal!  I paid a little over a hundred for mine and don't think I would be inclined to do so again, given that I like many of my other 6as7 equivalents as much or more.  But for $75 or under, I'd certainly bite.  They are nice tubes, but watching the hype build, and the price skyrocket over the last several years, is an incredible turn off.