Recording/Mastering Headphones?
Apr 2, 2002 at 10:44 PM Post #47 of 93
Wow!
It's cool to see all the respose to this topic!
I certainly agree about the classic vs. modern debate.
A local radio station where I am just went back to being "classic" rock
after 8 years of "modern" rock rotation.
I must say I was shocked at the difference in sonics!
When you combine the radio station's compression with the ridiculous
amount of compression/high end used in today's recordings, well,
we're talking WHITE NOISE here.

I don't even like most re-mastering jobs that I hear. I compared Lady Madonna from an older Beatles cd to the version on the Beatles 1 cd
and the re-mastered one sounded pushed and phony.

Anyway,thanks for all the info everyone. I'll definitely have to do the
7506/hd 280 comparison. I'm thinking maybe hd 280 as I have a

tendency to mix too thick/dark , (trying to counteract all that crud on the
radio I guess!!)

Does anyone know of a site that would ship either of these to Canada?
 
Apr 3, 2002 at 2:13 AM Post #48 of 93
Damn, that's what I get for typing like I'm on steroids at 1 in the morning...

I *heard* the 3kHz tone on the wavs with it standing out, and, just as I thought, for demonstration purposes that peak was set real high--are you going to find a 9dB peak in a narrow range of freqs in real life?

I then tried the normal wavs. All I had at the time was the EX70. As you said that these white / pink noises are good for spotting peaks and uneveness in the freq. response one should be able to hear other tones besides the 3kHz tone when listening to white / pink noise through the EX70. Well I didn't. THAT'S what I meant in my post.

DAMN TALKING ABOUT THINKS I DIDN'T SAY! SMACK! SLAP! SPANK!
very_evil_smiley.gif


(Ok, I just wasn't too clear
tongue.gif
)

And I should have been more specific about my complaints--you said the FM curves are about hearing at low levels heh? Well the graph proves you're wrong! SMACK!
very_evil_smiley.gif
 
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Apr 3, 2002 at 2:52 AM Post #49 of 93
9db peaks over a very narrow frequency range ARE typical of the types of colorations found in headphones (and speakers), which is precisely why this test works so well! And narrowband peaks of as little as 2-3db are easily spotted, once one learns what to listen for. There are many of these (narrowband peaks) in the response of MOST headphones! EXACTLY MY POINT!

I've never heard the EX-70. From what I understand, it's a very bass-heavy design. It may also be very "smooth", with few narrowband peaks. In which case, it passes the "interstation hiss" test. So do other cheap 'phones, such as the KSC-35! And many expensive, high end 'phones, even electrostatic ones DO NOT! (A case could be made that ESPECIALLY electrostatics don't pass the test, because a lot of what is heralded as "fast transient response", "crispness', "clarity", etc is actually high-end peakiness!)

And what I meant about Fletcher Munson being about low level (quiet) sound is that the "curve" flattens out as volume level increases, until there's almost no curve at all. Which is why it is the model for so called "loudness" controls on audio equipment...which boost lows, and to a lesser extent highs, at low volume levels, but "flatten out" as the volume is increased until, at high levels, they do almost nothing.
 
Apr 3, 2002 at 4:36 AM Post #50 of 93
Now that we're back on a more normal level of discourse...
wink.gif


Yeah, the EX70 are probably smooth in that respect--it seems that for dynamic headphones, the smaller the transducer the 'smoother' the FR--ie any irregularities are likely to be over a large range of freqs...

But are you then suggesting that everyone should use earbuds and clip ons for studio monitoring because of this? (no, I know you didn't say that
wink.gif
it's just that because you endorse the interstation hiss test and small buds and clip-ons like the KSC35 would pass the test better than megabuck circumaural dynamic and electrostat headphones it would seem that you might put the KSC35 above these phones in your regard??)

So which is more important--not having little sharp peaks in your phones' FR or not having broad swells and dips?

It would seem to me that little sharp peaks in your phones' FR would little affect your ability to mix well with them whereas its the broad swells and dips that may cause you to mix a track too dark or treble-heavy...

?

Oh, and one more thing about the white / pink noise method--you can only detect sharp peaks, but not sharp *dips* I suppose? I don't know quite how to explain the obvious--you probably get my point...

Seems like this method is *really* limited...

Tone sweeps also cost nothing for anyone with a computer (and maybe a CD burner), ya know?
 
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Apr 3, 2002 at 5:36 AM Post #51 of 93
Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Walker
Excellent question, Beagle (about how studios can use such bright monitors and still end up with too-bright mixes). I honestly believe that it's the result of hearing loss. Most engineers have mixed for too many decades, at too-high spls, that they simply can't hear how bright their mixes are. Sad, but I suspect probably true. Ever been inside a recording studio during mixdown? A jet plane landing 20 feet away is a whisper in comparison! (only a slight exaggeration!)


I agree that that's one possible explanation, but I also think it's because they mix too loudly. Please note -- I'm not talking about the high-frequency boost, I'm talking about the low-frequency boost. When people mix too loudly, the bass sounds louder with less, so mixes that are mixed that way tend to sound "lite" on the bass (case in point, Metallica's ...And Justice For All album). I think you're right in that they're deaf in the upper freq's, and so just overcompensate, though.

FTR, back to the original question, I actually agree with Mike -- in spite of my hate for the Sony's as pleasure-listening cans -- that they're great for monitoring. I use them that way all the time. Exclusively. But I disagree with him that they're "okay" for pleasure listening -- ralph. MHF. But I haven't heard the Beyer's or the new Senn's (or the new low-impedance AKG's or...). I know my phones, and that's good enough for me.

PS No, he's not usually that angry, he just uses too many exclamation points.

Here, watch (it's kind of like mixing):

PS No, he's not usually that angry, he just uses too many exclamation points!
 
Apr 3, 2002 at 6:39 AM Post #52 of 93
yeah, there are lots of recordings I have that specifically instruct the listener to play the music loud (Cure's Disintegration, Skinny Puppy's VIvisectVI, Skin Chamber's Trial, etc.) I recently purchased the KSC-35's and noticed the midrange was very warm and the bass overly boomy, until I turned the volume up. Much of the warmth and boominess went away and the listening experience got better, only now the volume was too loud for extended safe listening.

I have to agree with the deaf soundman comments, most concerts I have gone to have been entirely too loud and the live mix was extremely shrill in the treble. See my review of the recent Natalie Merchant concert in Cerritos here. A notable exception was the Beyond the Pale sound series at the Great American Music Hall in San Francisco. The sound mix was very well balanced and was at a reasonable volume considering it was mostly a heavy metal show. If you were at the back of the venue, you could order a drink at the bar without having to scream.
 
Apr 3, 2002 at 12:43 PM Post #53 of 93
Sorry, couldn't resist (the exclamation points)!!!!!

Yes, Joe I consider small, high q peaks to be IMMENSELY more destructive to the listening/monitoring experience than "broad swells and dips". As I wrote earlier, broad trends over octaves are easy for the ear to get used to and "tune out". But peaks such as the one I created in my noise examples destroy the timbre and musical integrity of EVERYTHING.

I know, it would seem as if these narrow peaks are harmless except for when a note happens to hit that exact frequency. Were musical notes comprised of pure tones, this would be true! But remember, waveforms produced by music are IMMENSELY complex. In practice this resonance would be excited over, and over, and over while listening to music, and EVERYTHING reproduced with a device with such a peak would take on a particular sonic "color". To prove this, I have included a short musical segment on my web site, first without, and then with the peak.

Also Joe, just because I said that the KSC-35 passes the test with flying colors, you certainly shouldn't assume that all small 'phones/earbuds do. In fact that's a silly assumption, since the KSC-35 IS NOT AN EARBUD! The transducer is not only large enough for headphones, it is used in many of Koss (better) inexpensive 'phones. I have NEVER found an inexpensive earbud that had a combination of smooth response, extended bass, COMFORT, and overall sound quality that I could live with. "The Plug" by Koss DOES have great bass extension (if a tad too much bass!), and is reasonably comfortable. But it has a peak very much like the one I have used for illustration in the upper midrange/treble, which makes it entirely unlistenable to me!

As for my test being better able to reveal peaks than dips in response, it's true. But that's not a limitation of the test. It's a limitation of human hearing. It's a well known psycho-acoustic fact, Joe, that "sins of commission" in audio are far more serious than "sins of ommission". Translation? The ear is far better able to hear peaks than dips. Especially narrow ones. GOOD engineers know that subtractive equalization is nearly always a better choice for balancing a mix than additive equalization. If the overall balance is too bright, better to bring down the highs than bring up the lows!

Think about it...the best small speaker systems are those which simply say "f##k it" when presented with deep bass. They don't try to reach beyond their natural range, and thus defy the laws of physics, because doing so would inevitably result in LOTS of distortion and narrow, high q peaks and dips in response. Rather than muddy the bass, good small designs just let the deep bass gradually rolloff with decreasing frequency. A good thing! Speaker systems (or headphones) with a gradual rolloff (5db per octave or a little more) above 7-10khz don't sound bad. Instead adjectives such as "mellow", "distant", "easy to listen to", or "un-fatiguing" are used to describe such a sound. But a speaker system with the inverse curve, with highs rising at 5db per octave or more from 7-10khz on up could end up sounding "biting", "edgy", "piercing", etc. Our ears/brains are simply much more accepting of "sins of ommission". Which is why a good song on an am radio with everything rolled off (by 20 db per octave or more) above 5khz, can be quite pleasant, but a song reproduced with everything boosted by the same amount above 5khz would be unlistenable!

Also note Joe I didn't say inexpensive 'phones are better than expensive ones. I said SOME inexpensive 'phones are far better than SOME expensive ones! Some of the best 'phones are cheap, some of the worst are expensive! Thank God! There are some great designs which I can actually afford!

Ok, now check out what I mean about how a peak such as the one illustrated can destroy music listening. Take the link below to my website, and compare the music with, and without the peak.

Click here, and scroll down to the music samples
 
Apr 3, 2002 at 1:43 PM Post #54 of 93
Just one more person in the battle.

About the narrow vs broad there is a good matematical measure.
Just take the area under the peak, that is the integral of the function that creates the curve. The larger the area (the value of the integral) the more color, i.e the more the curve departs from flat
Now it can happen that even narrow but high peaks can color more than broad shallow ones. For multiple peaks the things get slightly more complicated though.
 
Apr 4, 2002 at 6:06 PM Post #57 of 93
in a higher price range than the 100 dollar or less range that hebjam is looking for? The headphones would have to be equaly good for listening purposes. My price range is 200 usd or less.
 
Apr 5, 2002 at 7:37 AM Post #59 of 93
The reason I didn't answer your question about higher priced (than 200 US dollar) recording/mixing headphones is that I don't, nor do any engineers I know of, use them! The things that make a headphone great for monitoring/mixing don't necessarily get better with increased price. Sadly, neither do the things which make headphones great in general. As I've said before, there are some wonderful cheap headphones, and some awful expensive ones!

Sony 7506s ARE NOT the best headphones out there in absolute terms. Not by a long shot. But I've yet to find any better as a tool for recording and mixing. There are others that are as good, however. While I haven't spent a great deal of time with them for that purpose, the Beyerdynamic DT-250 (and the older, discontinued DT-150) struck me as having the right mix of qualities for recording/mixing. Buy those if you insist on spending more. Are they better for these tasks than the Sony? Nope. Not in my opinion. But they ARE more expensive!

I would recommend buying the Sonys for recording/mixing, and then a truly good, acccurate pair for listening...such as the Sennheiser HD-580 (or HD-600 if you insist on spending more). That's what I do!
 

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